Player Features and Ideas Discussion

Because that method of use of the covert ops cloak went away, the covert ops cloak is a ship by ship inclusion method now, muck like a micro jump drive restriction.

I would like to point out this to you also, it is CCPs outlook on Ship Tech Levels

I'm pretty sure that originally you didn't have the "Can use a Covert Ops Cloaking Device". Did you just edit that in?

Edit: Sorry, I didn't refresh the page so didn't realise that others had addressed this. Ignore me.

Could you let me know where you referenced this from because I thought tech III were supposed to be better than tech II in everything other than what the specific tech 2 ship is specialized in.

Comparing a tech III cruiser to a (potential) tech III mining ship is disingenuous though. Tech I and tech II ships have a strong market because pilots fully expect to lose these ships when they use them in PvP, so the price and potential loss of skillpoints is a real deterrent to flying a tech III cruiser. There's also very little reason to use tech II ships outside of PvP, with the possible exceptions of marauders, logistics, covert ops scanners, and possibly command ships. Mining barges are overwhelming flown in high sec and the only downward pressure to fly a cheaper barge is ganks, which are honestly fairly rare. This creates a large difference between how mining barges and combat ships are judged.

As for the retriever specifically it is in a very odd position when compared to combat ships. If the mack fits just a single DCU in the low slot then a 3 MLU retriever will mine more than it. It's just an oddity in the specific numbers and shouldn't be held up as an example of the normal relationship between tech I and tech II hulls.

Reading your other posts it's seems like you're just looking for a cloaky mining ship though, and hiding it behind a tech III ORE ship request. I still think it's an 'all or nothing' situation where they're either better because they have a lot of tank and mine more, or they're worse or the tank is too think to stand up to ganks. There's really no middle ground that's going to be balanced.

I see a potential for the covert subsystem to use BLOPs support for travel.

Heck, if they just added exhumers and barges to things a BLOPs could bridge for, I would be happy.

Sorry, I'm a bit confused with what you're trying to say. You're saying that tech III cruisers aren't really used in pvp (which simply isn't true) and so they're not a good comparison for a tech III mining ship? I'd say that's pretty much a perfect comparison then as I doubt anyone would use a tech III mining ship to do pvp in willingly. Also, why does it matter when discussing the relative merits of the various tech level ships as to whether they're combat or not? People use non combat ships for combat and vice versa. Examples include the battle badger and the mining rokh, but to name two off the top of my head. If you think mining ships don't get popped you're sorely mistaken. Just because someone doesn't chose to do pvp doesn't mean they don't get into pvp.

On top of that, you're wrong about tech II ships. People pve in them. HICs and HACs are used in null pve quite a bit. Also, saying mining barges are overwhelmingly flown in high sec simply isn't true. How do you think people mine in wormholes and nullsec? They do it in barges quite a lot of the time because of the cost (as explained elsewhere in this thread), especially in wormholes. I've seen about as many barges in wormholes as I have exhumers. I expect relative to population volume the use of mining barges in high and null aren't that different. I wouldn't be surprised if exhumers are used more in high than null, if considered by numbers alone.

Saying ganks are fairly rare isn't really true either. High sec ganks are fairly rare if you pick a low population area and keep an eye on local and preferably keep aligned. There are areas of high sec where mining ganks are quite plentiful and I'm pretty sure at least once a year high sec mining ganking goes nuts!

I can assure you that I'm not stealth requesting a cloaky mining ship. If I wanted a cloaky mining ship I would post a thread about making mining ships cloaky. I simply like the OP's idea for this T3 mining ship. {edited}

As mentioned, though, a general purpose t3 industrial, especially when POS modules make it capable to change subsystems, would be extremely useful in w-space.

There are a lot of parts of industry, not just mining and hauling. From the probing and exploration, to production and manufacturing, to refining and/or compressing ore, to full on research.

A neat addition to this industrial: make it subcapital AND capital, depending on the subsystems. If you fit certain large subsystems, your ship becomes a capital with all the inherent issues.

Let this industrial, while not being as good as the dedicated t2 ships (and since the orca and rorqual are t1, it can supersede their abilities), it can be far more modular and useful.

Honestly, I think the T3 industrials is the only type of t3 ship that can fit that modular component that CCP tried to go for with the Strategic Cruisers. Outright efficiency is something industrialists shoot for, but so is overall capability.

I wanted to add to this:

A t3 ORE ship's basic structure would be BS sized (so large rigs), but could be expanded larger. Like current T3 cruisers, it would be limited to 5 upgrade slots. Unlike the strategic cruisers, there would be far more possible subsystems per slot, and many of them would be redundant.

For example, instead of one subsystem becoming the 'cargo' subsystem, there would end up being cargo subsystems in the Defensive, Engineering, Electronic, Propulsion and Offensive systems, allowing four modules to be used if the player chooses which would bring the cargo capacity closer to a freighters hold than any other ship. Again, this massive amount of cargo space to create a true mini-freighter is only possible by sacrificing every subsystem slot. However, even with that sacrifice, it cannot surpass even the smallest freighters cargo capacity.

The real benefit of a T3 industrial, however, is the options. Some possible subsystems: Ship Maintenance Bays; Fleet Hangars; Ore Holds; Fuel Bays; Jump Drives; Ore Compression Bay; Ice Harvester platform; Strip Miner platform; Shield Defensive system; Armor Defensive system, Covert Ops subsystem; Covert Cyno subsystem; etc.

It should be made clear that with each of these modules and options, while expansive, are not individually capable of doing more than the dedicated ship can. An ORE T3's mining platforms, if all focused on strip mining, cannot get the same yield as a fully fit Exhumer. An ORE T3's defensive system and covert ops subsystems, while similar to that of a transport ship, would be less agile and not get many of the benefits (a sacrifice for larger holds), making them less ideal for the blockade runner job. And even with many of the features of the Rorqual and Orca, the T3 industrial would lack the ability to cram all of them on the same boat, as it is not quite large enough.

As a whole, far more options, but not the best at any one thing. It would not outshine the Orca or Rorqual as an industrial command craft. It would not beat Exhumers in mining, or transport ships in moving through dangerous ground. But it would allow an industrialist to fit the ship for what's needed and give them a lot more options for industry.