These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

Intergalactic Summit

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
12Next page
 

Condemnation of my alma mater

Author
Andreus Ixiris
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#1 - 2013-03-30 11:45:52 UTC
I have some fond memories of the Centre for Advanced Studies. The first few weeks, when I adjusted to life outside the gilded cage of my father's sprawling estate. Making new friends, who couldn't pronounce my birth name, and so with the best of intentions gave me a new one that I've kept to this day. Disabling the safeties on a high-tech firearm as my end-of-term project and spending three days in the brig for it (totally worth it). My tutors and friends rallying around me when my father disowned me and cut off my tuition. The day of my graduation, when I gained not only my engineering certifications but the right to become a capsuleer as well. These are all memories I will cherish until the day I die, but it seems that things have changed for the worse in the seven-and-a-half years since I graduated.

This is not acceptable. The struggle through which Ms. Odenjorn has been put should never have happened in the first place and I condemn both the Minority Affairs Office and the Centre as a whole for allowing things to come to such a head. I'm suspending use of my engineering degree and all endorsement of the school until such time as the it sees fit to repair its attitude towards the Minmatar who represent our closest and dearest allies in this cluster. I encourage all other capsuleers who graduated from the Centre to do the same - after all, you're capsuleers. It's not like most of our prospective employers demand to see engineering degrees, nor do we generally need them to make a living.

Andreus Ixiris > A Civire without a chin is barely a Civire at all.

Pieter Tuulinen > He'd be Civirely disadvantaged, Andreus.

Andreus Ixiris > ...

Andreus Ixiris > This is why we're at war.

Lialus Raithe
Doomheim
#2 - 2013-03-30 11:50:30 UTC
Commendable Monsieur Ixiris. I did not graduate from CAS but I second your voice in this matter.
Emile Belfleur
Solar Zouaves
#3 - 2013-03-30 16:49:46 UTC
I would certainly have liked to see a different outcome to this unfortunate affair. I cannot, however, support an initiative to condemn the finest institution for higher learning in the Federation.

It is perfectly possible to express disappointment without disrespect, and usually preferable, too. I will continue to think and speak highly of the Center for Advanced Studies, and I encourage other alumni to do so, too.

I will, however, urge the school administration to reassess its policies in light of Ms. Odenjorn's complaint. They should view it not as an attack, but as a challenge to improve. On that same note, dismissing her complaint as a "persecution fantasy" is unworthy of such an exalted institution. When the CAS (or any other institution for higher learning, without mentioning names) recommends that a student, any student, study humaniora instead of engineering or any other vocationally useful field of study, that is simply not good enough. It is in the institution's (and the Federation's) own best interest to acknowledge such.

In closing, I would again encourage Mlle Odenjorn not to give up her dreams. And if I, my corporation or even my family's agribusiness company can help her in any way, whether through offers of employment, letters of recommendation or anything else, she is welcome to contact us, and I am sure we can work something out. There are far too many idle hands in the Federation as it stands - denying those who actually do want to pull their weight the opportunity to do so is simply unacceptable.
Ava Starfire
Khushakor Clan
#4 - 2013-04-01 00:40:03 UTC
You seem to be under the impression that incidents of overt racism against Minmatar in the Federation are rare.

"There is no strength in numbers; have no such misconception." -Jayka Vofur, "Warfare in the North"

Lialus Raithe
Doomheim
#5 - 2013-04-01 01:00:50 UTC
Ava Starfire wrote:
You seem to be under the impression that incidents of overt racism against Minmatar in the Federation are rare.


Incidents? No.

Rare? Probably not.

However, they would be isolated and often committed by individuals or small groups. It is rare for a major university, corporation or political entity to engage in racism because it will gain negative publicity and is a violation of Federal tenets.
Rodj Blake
PIE Inc.
Khimi Harar
#6 - 2013-04-01 08:23:04 UTC
Ava Starfire wrote:
You seem to be under the impression that incidents of overt racism against Minmatar in the Federation are rare.



It's almost as though the Gallente are starting to wise up to the ways of the Minmatar.

Dolce et decorum est pro Imperium mori

Anabella Rella
Gradient
Electus Matari
#7 - 2013-04-01 13:46:46 UTC
Rodj Blake wrote:

It's almost as though the Gallente are starting to wise up to the ways of the Minmatar.


What the hell are you on about now, you old fool? Don't you have some puppies to kick?

When the world is running down, you make the best of what's still around.

Gabriel Darkefyre
Gradient
Electus Matari
#8 - 2013-04-01 14:16:16 UTC
Lialus Raithe wrote:
Ava Starfire wrote:
You seem to be under the impression that incidents of overt racism against Minmatar in the Federation are rare.


Incidents? No.

Rare? Probably not.

However, they would be isolated and often committed by individuals or small groups. It is rare for a major university, corporation or political entity to engage in racism because it will gain negative publicity and is a violation of Federal tenets.


This wasn't a case of Gallente being racist towards Minmatar, but of Members of one Minmatar Tribe in positions of power within a Gallente Institution allegedly discriminating against a Student who happened to be a member of another Tribe.

The problem in this case is Cultural. Legally, within the Federation, all Minmatar are Legally "Minmatar" regardless of whether those Minmatar self identify as Sebiestor, Brutor, Thukker or even Nefantar. So, the Gallente System is blind to the Discrimination because, as it sees it, it's occuring between members of the Same Racial Group so cannot be legally defined as Racism.
Lialus Raithe
Doomheim
#9 - 2013-04-01 14:28:29 UTC
Gabriel Darkefyre wrote:
The problem in this case is Cultural. Legally, within the Federation, all Minmatar are Legally "Minmatar" regardless of whether those Minmatar self identify as Sebiestor, Brutor, Thukker or even Nefantar. So, the Gallente System is blind to the Discrimination because, as it sees it, it's occuring between members of the Same Racial Group so cannot be legally defined as Racism.


It can, however, be defined as discrimination regardless, which the Federation should be made aware of and actively work to discourage. Which, I believe, was the point of the entire case to begin with and the reason for this thread.
Emile Belfleur
Solar Zouaves
#10 - 2013-04-01 14:41:59 UTC
As I see it, the true issue at stake here is not so much racism as it is what value our institutions of higher learning place on professional and practical studies as compared to less essential fields of knowledge. A young engineer with aptitude and drive to succeed should not be held back from doing so.

To the extent that racism plays a role in this conflict, it seems to be a matter of some Minmatar discriminating against other Minmatar. Sebiestor against Brutor, Vherokior against the others, and so on. I believe that is an issue which is best adressed and solved within Minmatar society itself, not one which Federal authorities should be dragged in to preside over.
Rodj Blake
PIE Inc.
Khimi Harar
#11 - 2013-04-01 15:13:23 UTC
Anabella Rella wrote:
Rodj Blake wrote:

It's almost as though the Gallente are starting to wise up to the ways of the Minmatar.


What the hell are you on about now, you old fool? Don't you have some puppies to kick?


For example, it's not racist to call a member of a different race a lolligagging simpleton if they are indeed a lolligagging simpleton.

Dolce et decorum est pro Imperium mori

Lialus Raithe
Doomheim
#12 - 2013-04-01 16:41:36 UTC
Emile Belfleur wrote:
As I see it, the true issue at stake here is not so much racism as it is what value our institutions of higher learning place on professional and practical studies as compared to less essential fields of knowledge. A young engineer with aptitude and drive to succeed should not be held back from doing so.


"Less essential fields of knowledge" is inherently a biased statement. Facilities can specialize in one or more areas of education and not specialize in others but no student should be given "priority" over another simply because their chosen field of study is "more essential."

Emile Belfleur wrote:
To the extent that racism plays a role in this conflict, it seems to be a matter of some Minmatar discriminating against other Minmatar. Sebiestor against Brutor, Vherokior against the others, and so on. I believe that is an issue which is best adressed and solved within Minmatar society itself, not one which Federal authorities should be dragged in to preside over.


I would agree with you except that these instances are occurring in Federation space under Federal regulation and oversight, that makes it a Federal issue. Awareness for these types of instances should be raised if they continue to go unnoticed. While I understand local autonomy principles, there comes a point when it becomes necessary to ensure the liberties and rights of all individuals are upheld equally even among internal racial groups. That is, after all, the foundation of the Federation.
Emile Belfleur
Solar Zouaves
#13 - 2013-04-01 18:27:25 UTC
Lialus Raithe wrote:
"Less essential fields of knowledge" is inherently a biased statement. Facilities can specialize in one or more areas of education and not specialize in others but no student should be given "priority" over another simply because their chosen field of study is "more essential."

It is indeed biased, Captain, and for good reason, I believe. It is my honest opinion that the Federation already has far too many students of the humanities, especially given the way in which the humanities are commonly taught today. It would benefit us all if funding was significantly shifted in favor of the sciences, and of professional studies such as engineering and medicine.

In this case, we have a student who was originally advised to drop her plans of studying engineering in favor of a "career" within the humanities. It should have been the other way around! People may be equal in the Federation, but fields and disciplines of study certainly should not be.

Lialus Raithe wrote:
I would agree with you except that these instances are occurring in Federation space under Federal regulation and oversight, that makes it a Federal issue. Awareness for these types of instances should be raised if they continue to go unnoticed. While I understand local autonomy principles, there comes a point when it becomes necessary to ensure the liberties and rights of all individuals are upheld equally even among internal racial groups. That is, after all, the foundation of the Federation.

I will have to disagree with you there, Captain. The job of Federal authorities is to keep peace between neighbors and to protect the whole of the Union from threats abroad. It is not to march into people's homes and rearrange their furniture. However benevolent the intentions may be, such action treads perilously close to tyranny.
Andreus Ixiris
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#14 - 2013-04-01 19:04:52 UTC
Rodj Blake wrote:
For example, it's not racist to call a member of a different race a lolligagging simpleton if they are indeed a lolligagging simpleton.

Like how there do exist many, many Amarrians who are not lolligagging simpletons.

They are all notably absent from this thread.

Andreus Ixiris > A Civire without a chin is barely a Civire at all.

Pieter Tuulinen > He'd be Civirely disadvantaged, Andreus.

Andreus Ixiris > ...

Andreus Ixiris > This is why we're at war.

Ammos Gravit
Eos Corporation
#15 - 2013-04-01 19:16:19 UTC
Gabriel Darkefyre wrote:


This wasn't a case of Gallente being racist towards Minmatar, but of Members of one Minmatar Tribe in positions of power within a Gallente Institution allegedly discriminating against a Student who happened to be a member of another Tribe.


This seems an inevitable outcome in Gallente thinking. Tolerating outsiders, so long as they conform to the culture they wish to live in, produces no problems. However the Gallente seem to need to accept every aspect of the outsiders they play host to. Did they think Minmatar would only keep the parts of their thinking the Gallente agreed with?

How the Federation does not see this problem far more publicly and frequently, I could never guess.
Valerie Valate
Church of The Crimson Saviour
#16 - 2013-04-01 19:33:29 UTC
I'm sure CAS is positively ecstatic at your endorsement of the Covenant.

Doctor V. Valate, Professor of Archaeology at Kaztropolis Imperial University.

Morwen Lagann
Tyrathlion Interstellar
#17 - 2013-04-01 19:46:29 UTC
Ammos Gravit wrote:
Gabriel Darkefyre wrote:


This wasn't a case of Gallente being racist towards Minmatar, but of Members of one Minmatar Tribe in positions of power within a Gallente Institution allegedly discriminating against a Student who happened to be a member of another Tribe.


This seems an inevitable outcome in Gallente thinking. Tolerating outsiders, so long as they conform to the culture they wish to live in, produces no problems. However the Gallente seem to need to accept every aspect of the outsiders they play host to. Did they think Minmatar would only keep the parts of their thinking the Gallente agreed with?

How the Federation does not see this problem far more publicly and frequently, I could never guess.


This is a combination of two problems.

The first being that the Federation's census officials have decided to lump Minmatar regardless of tribe into a single group, probably in the name of efficiency. Not that it's really all that inefficient to take someone's tribal affiliation(s) into account. Roll (Now, if we were talking clans and such, then it might become too much overhead. But we're not.) It's less racism and more bureaucratic bullshit.

It's equivalent to a census being taken in the Empire, and only taking which of the Heir families people work down the chain from into account rather than the specific Holder they are associated with, or identifying State citizens by their parent megacorporation but not by the subsidiary that they may actually work directly for.

The other problem, as Gabriel stated, is that it is also less racism and more internal Matari politicking. From my own conversations with a number of people from the Republic, it is my understanding that this is actually a normal - and often accepted - occurrence there, and one of the reasons it has resulted in a lot of noise in the Federation is that it is not normally acceptable.

As for why it isn't something seen more frequently, that is likely due to the escalation of the problem. I would wager that most similar cases in the Federation, when they happen, do not find themselves escalated all the way to the Supreme Court for whatever reason, be it a settlement between parties or a ruling from a lower judge.

We're only hearing about this case because it was escalated to the point where it became a high-profile story. If it hadn't made it to the Supreme Court, it is quite likely none of us would have even heard about it.

Morwen Lagann

CEO, Tyrathlion Interstellar

Coordinator, Arataka Research Consortium

Owner, The Golden Masque

Gabriel Darkefyre
Gradient
Electus Matari
#18 - 2013-04-01 19:47:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Gabriel Darkefyre
Lialus Raithe wrote:
Gabriel Darkefyre wrote:
The problem in this case is Cultural. Legally, within the Federation, all Minmatar are Legally "Minmatar" regardless of whether those Minmatar self identify as Sebiestor, Brutor, Thukker or even Nefantar. So, the Gallente System is blind to the Discrimination because, as it sees it, it's occuring between members of the Same Racial Group so cannot be legally defined as Racism.


It can, however, be defined as discrimination regardless, which the Federation should be made aware of and actively work to discourage. Which, I believe, was the point of the entire case to begin with and the reason for this thread.


Indeed, which is why I am disappointed that the Case did not proceed. It would, for example, be like telling a Jing Ko Student that he should really be doing vocational courses instead of Business Management, without even taking into account any personal talent the student may have.

Personally, I may be the stereotypical Sebiestor Engineer, but I fully acknowledge that there as far better engineers out there, of all Races and Bloodlines. Your Blood does not dictate where your talents lie.
Lialus Raithe
Doomheim
#19 - 2013-04-01 20:34:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Lialus Raithe
Emile Belfleur wrote:
In this case, we have a student who was originally advised to drop her plans of studying engineering in favor of a "career" within the humanities. It should have been the other way around! People may be equal in the Federation, but fields and disciplines of study certainly should not be.


Emile Belfleur wrote:
I will have to disagree with you there, Captain. The job of Federal authorities is to keep peace between neighbors and to protect the whole of the Union from threats abroad. It is not to march into people's homes and rearrange their furniture. However benevolent the intentions may be, such action treads perilously close to tyranny.


So on one hand it is okay for the Federation to regulate educational policy to encourage, if not force, individuals into specific fields for the "good of the Federation" but on the other hand the Federation encouraging, if not forcing, equal treatment of individuals for employment and educational purposes by businesses and educational institutions is perilously close to tyranny?
Emile Belfleur
Solar Zouaves
#20 - 2013-04-01 22:14:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Emile Belfleur
Lialus Raithe wrote:
So on one hand it is okay for the Federation to regulate educational policy to encourage, if not force, individuals into specific fields for the "good of the Federation" but on the other hand the Federation encouraging, if not forcing, equal treatment of individuals for employment and educational purposes by businesses and educational institutions is perilously close to tyranny?

I am actually not trying to encourage the Federation to regulate education so much as I'm trying to encourage my old school, the CAS, to regulate itself. That being said, in the degree the institution receives Federal financial support, which I believe it does, it is of course perfectly acceptable for Federal authorities to require that money to be spent in a certain way.

Understand me right - in an ideal universe, we would never have formed the Federation in the first place. At best, we would have a military and trade alliance with our neighbors. We would still be Gallente, we would still be Garoun, and we would still have our king.

Still, we must work within the reality we have. If there has to be a supernational superstructure overlaying our part of the cluster, and it has to go around spending the money of citizens as though it were its own, it should at least spend it on something sensible and worthwhile. Like engineers.
12Next page