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Player Features and Ideas Discussion

 
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SP Trade in

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Tonto Auri
Vhero' Multipurpose Corp
#41 - 2013-04-02 21:21:41 UTC
Did I said something funny?

Two most common elements in the universe are hydrogen and stupidity. -- Harlan Ellison
P0RKSW0RD
Doomheim
#42 - 2013-04-02 21:42:46 UTC
Tonto Auri wrote:
Did I said something funny?


If it's not relevant to what this thread is about, I'm not even gonna get into it.
P0RKSW0RD
Doomheim
#43 - 2013-04-02 22:12:14 UTC
[quote=Kusum Fawn]To properly answer this question.

Instead of having to make a choice of spending some isk, remapping or training at a suboptimal speed, you simply put medium autocannon specialization 5 on that queue and transfer over sp that you are training at optimal speeds. THis reduces market interactions, reduces the difficulty of making good choices (as it no longer matters what you train as long as you remember to move sp over once in a while.

Thank u for a well written and detailed response, but I did mention earlier that it would only be a one time chance to correct some mistakes and only done on the account that created the character to begin with. Once transferred the option is gone.

You could even limit the amount of sp that it could be done with, i don't mean for it to be permanently available so people could delete or change their entire skillset at will as this would truly destroy the game.

Or even if you were able to trade in x amount (again limited amount) and sacrifice 25% for the privelege ( but again only ever being able to it once and only if you created the character ).
This is something I would do, I would happily lower my total sp to have a little more in the areas i've come to really love about eve.
Elizabeth Norn
Nornir Research
Nornir Empire
#44 - 2013-04-02 22:16:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Elizabeth Norn
Seranova Farreach wrote:
train 1x skill, move sp form that skill to higher training multiplier skill and repeat.


Skills with higher multipliers require more SP. Check your skillsheet.

Free 3rd party services

Buddy link w/ bonus 250k SP, you keep the whole PLEX upon subscribing
Little Dragon Khamez
Guardians of the Underworld
#45 - 2013-04-02 22:31:47 UTC
I've often wondered how skillbooks are made. I would support unlearning skills with the proviso that:

1. A character unlearns his or her skills at exactly the same rate it took to learn them in the first place, e.g. 15 days for a 3 x skill at level 5 etc (depending on attributes).

2. That a character cannot learn any other skills when 'unlearning' as effectively the training queue is being utilized by a skill the sp of which is counting backwards on.

3. At the end of the process when the skill is unlearned to level zero the character can download it into a blank skill book that he or she can then sell or pass to another capsuleer who then consumes it in the normal way, taking time to learn the skill as normal.

4. Skill books should still be sold by NPC's to keep the costs cheap.

That way the character has something that he or she can sell, is severely disadvantaged through unlearning, which should discourage the character from attempting to do so.

Dumbing down of Eve Online will result in it's destruction...
Azrael Dinn
Imperial Mechanics
#46 - 2013-04-03 05:22:29 UTC
Little Dragon Khamez wrote:
I've often wondered how skillbooks are made. I would support unlearning skills with the proviso that:

1. A character unlearns his or her skills at exactly the same rate it took to learn them in the first place, e.g. 15 days for a 3 x skill at level 5 etc (depending on attributes).

2. That a character cannot learn any other skills when 'unlearning' as effectively the training queue is being utilized by a skill the sp of which is counting backwards on.

3. At the end of the process when the skill is unlearned to level zero the character can download it into a blank skill book that he or she can then sell or pass to another capsuleer who then consumes it in the normal way, taking time to learn the skill as normal.

4. Skill books should still be sold by NPC's to keep the costs cheap.

That way the character has something that he or she can sell, is severely disadvantaged through unlearning, which should discourage the character from attempting to do so.


This would be pretty useless. No point unlearning anything if you don't gain anything by doing it. Would be just better to train something instead.

After centuries of debating and justifying... Break Cloaks tm
Little Dragon Khamez
Guardians of the Underworld
#47 - 2013-04-03 20:03:36 UTC
Azrael Dinn wrote:
Little Dragon Khamez wrote:
I've often wondered how skillbooks are made. I would support unlearning skills with the proviso that:

1. A character unlearns his or her skills at exactly the same rate it took to learn them in the first place, e.g. 15 days for a 3 x skill at level 5 etc (depending on attributes).

2. That a character cannot learn any other skills when 'unlearning' as effectively the training queue is being utilized by a skill the sp of which is counting backwards on.

3. At the end of the process when the skill is unlearned to level zero the character can download it into a blank skill book that he or she can then sell or pass to another capsuleer who then consumes it in the normal way, taking time to learn the skill as normal.

4. Skill books should still be sold by NPC's to keep the costs cheap.

That way the character has something that he or she can sell, is severely disadvantaged through unlearning, which should discourage the character from attempting to do so.


This would be pretty useless. No point unlearning anything if you don't gain anything by doing it. Would be just better to train something instead.


That was my point too, but there are some people out there that cant stand the site of say 'heavy missiles' skills being on their character now that they've been nerfed and would like to unlearn those skills (purely as an example) because they don't use them anymore. In doing so they might qualify for a cheaper clone so there may be some benefit.

Dumbing down of Eve Online will result in it's destruction...
Ersahi Kir
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#48 - 2013-04-03 21:48:56 UTC
Azrael Dinn wrote:
Little Dragon Khamez wrote:
I've often wondered how skillbooks are made. I would support unlearning skills with the proviso that:

1. A character unlearns his or her skills at exactly the same rate it took to learn them in the first place, e.g. 15 days for a 3 x skill at level 5 etc (depending on attributes).

2. That a character cannot learn any other skills when 'unlearning' as effectively the training queue is being utilized by a skill the sp of which is counting backwards on.

3. At the end of the process when the skill is unlearned to level zero the character can download it into a blank skill book that he or she can then sell or pass to another capsuleer who then consumes it in the normal way, taking time to learn the skill as normal.

4. Skill books should still be sold by NPC's to keep the costs cheap.

That way the character has something that he or she can sell, is severely disadvantaged through unlearning, which should discourage the character from attempting to do so.


This would be pretty useless. No point unlearning anything if you don't gain anything by doing it. Would be just better to train something instead.


I would like to drop some of my industry, science, and spaceship command skills because I have chosen a different path for this character (fleet booster and logistics). Being able to untrain skill points that are bloating out my character and bumping me up jump clone grades would be more useful than training new skills I'm not going to use.
Jacid
Corvix.
#49 - 2013-04-04 19:46:16 UTC
Wow this thread is full of awesome... but ill give my 2 cents because i already committed the time to reading the other post i might as well comment.


No.. i don't want SP recycling in my game, clone prices aren't a good reason and should be addressed in a different topic, mistakes aren't a good reason because eve is about making choices and living with those choice. In eve you can't reload your game because you dislike the outcome. Clearly you have a personal stake in this question maybe you trained Heavy Missiles to 5 and no longer like flying drakes however people that do make mistakes need to HTFU as the saying goes and train on.

Eve as stands now is becoming too easy, eve needs to be tough, it needs to force you to make tough choices, and you need to live with those choices.

My 2 Cents
Ersahi Kir
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#50 - 2013-04-04 19:57:34 UTC
Jacid wrote:
Eve as stands now is becoming too easy, eve needs to be tough, it needs to force you to make tough choices, and you need to live with those choices.


This is why people have armies of alts who do specialized things. People make alts so they can avoid the repercussions of "tough decisions" while gaining the full benefits, so this entire mentality is based in flawed logic.
Ristlin Wakefield
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#51 - 2013-04-04 20:04:20 UTC
Seranova Farreach wrote:
train 1x skill, move sp form that skill to higher training multiplier skill and repeat.


A similar technique as this was used in SWG during the combat upgrade, which caused a massive influx of Jedi characters (made it easier to unlock the Jedi slot). Bounty Hunters (BH) worked hard to keep the Jedi population in check (each death resulted in skill loss), but being able to stack low level skills then reinvest them up the ladder allowed Jedi to quickly go from Padawan level (easily taken out by one BH) to a Knight (can survive 2 to more BHs) before their visibility (how quickly they show up on the Bounty terminals again) increased significantly.

I made my Jedi during this time period and within a few weeks was able to dispatch a three-man bounty hunter squad with relative ease. If I knew that this would eventually ruin the game, I would've preferred for the developers to not allow skill reimbursement. I would've even preferred them to have kept the permadeath mechanic in for Jedi.

TL:DR: Skill reimbursement is a bad idea and will ruin game balance. For the good of the game, I prefer not even entertaining the idea of a one-time deal.

I have a lover, her name is EVE. I see her every night and all she asks in return is that I have a pilot's license.
P0RKSW0RD
Doomheim
#52 - 2013-04-04 21:51:31 UTC  |  Edited by: P0RKSW0RD
Jacid wrote:


Clearly you have a personal stake in this question maybe you trained Heavy Missiles to 5 and no longer like flying drakes

My 2 Cents


You kinda hit the nail on the head with this. For me personally for me it's things like veldspar processing level one and other skills like that, even if i changed all of the things i'd like too on my own character sheet it wouldn't amount to much in sp tbh , it would be more of a spring clean.
My character is a cross trainer and i love not having to train gunnery, missile or core skills anymore, quite proud of it tbh.
But i do agree with most of what u've written, your two cents is appreciated.
P0RKSW0RD
Doomheim
#53 - 2013-04-04 21:54:12 UTC
Ristlin Wakefield wrote:
Seranova Farreach wrote:
train 1x skill, move sp form that skill to higher training multiplier skill and repeat.


A similar technique as this was used in SWG during the combat upgrade, which caused a massive influx of Jedi characters (made it easier to unlock the Jedi slot). Bounty Hunters (BH) worked hard to keep the Jedi population in check (each death resulted in skill loss), but being able to stack low level skills then reinvest them up the ladder allowed Jedi to quickly go from Padawan level (easily taken out by one BH) to a Knight (can survive 2 to more BHs) before their visibility (how quickly they show up on the Bounty terminals again) increased significantly.

I made my Jedi during this time period and within a few weeks was able to dispatch a three-man bounty hunter squad with relative ease. If I knew that this would eventually ruin the game, I would've preferred for the developers to not allow skill reimbursement. I would've even preferred them to have kept the permadeath mechanic in for Jedi.

TL:DR: Skill reimbursement is a bad idea and will ruin game balance. For the good of the game, I prefer not even entertaining the idea of a one-time deal.


I'd hate to see that happen and should be treated as an exploit if it did.
Nagnor
The Happy Shooters
#54 - 2013-04-04 23:26:15 UTC
Not a bad idea. In the beginning you experimented and wasted SP (eg Mining Drone Operation). Could have biomassed then and restarted but didn't

Of course safeguards should be in place:

  1. You can't use it too often
  2. SP for SP.
  3. Skill prerequisites are respected.


Ad 1) Count it as a remap
Ad 2) the "train 1x skill, move sp form that skill to higher training multiplier skill and repeat" doesn't work. A full , lvl 5 skill with multiple 1 is 256.000 SP. When placing those SP in a skill with higher multiple a smaller amount of lvl will have been completed
Ad 3) Releasing SP from a trained skill automatically releases SP from all skill that are depending on it. In order to enforce that placing SP back can only be done if the prerequisites have been met, skills with no points will be removed from char or offloaded to skill books (tbd). This due to the summer expansion where prerequisites checking will be changed in such a way that it will only at skill book injection
Kalel Nimrott
Caldari Provisions
#55 - 2013-04-04 23:43:51 UTC
I want to trade plexs for SPs. How can I do that? :)

Bob Artis, you will be missed.

O7
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#56 - 2013-04-05 00:41:44 UTC

In short... HELL NO....

The main reasons I'm against this:

1.) You've already benefited from the skills you trained, and you can continue to benefit from them if you choose.

2.) It eliminates any consequences for the SP Training decisions you've made. Losses are realizable in even, decisions matter, saying "I made a mistake" should not lesson this.

3.) If it was frequent enough (annual or more), why bother training at any rate other than max... Map Int/Mem or Prec/Will... train marginal skills that aren't immediately important... and remap them once a year to off-map skills... You ultimately accrue SP faster, spend less on implants, and this method is inherently biased towards older players that don't need to train Ship skills, support skills, nav skills, which all have different attribute requirements.

4.) It enhances FOTM and simultaneously diminishes the value of foresight. When big patches hit, things change... New ships and modules become in demand to both be flown and created... If you had the foresight and pretrained, you can take advantage of the changes while other players scramble to train up to do so... With a Remap... there is not advantageous period as people can insta-swap.

5.) It destroys the character bazaar. Total SP a character has is not nearly as important as how they have that SP distributed. You essentially remove this aspect from the bazaar.

6.) Even if you allow it only once in a character's life time, we all know you'll be whining and bitching again in another year how you've changed your course through EvE, and want to move SP around again...

7.) As a rule of thumb, All major game-changing suggestion are terrible when the person proposing it is too lazy/incompetent to do some research on the topic prior to posting.
Nagnor
The Happy Shooters
#57 - 2013-04-05 01:53:06 UTC
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:

In short... HELL NO....

The main reasons I'm against this:

1.) You've already benefited from the skills you trained, and you can continue to benefit from them if you choose.

BS argument. Following this argument you shouldn't be able to sell ships you have bought in the past.

Gizznitt Malikite wrote:

2.) It eliminates any consequences for the SP Training decisions you've made. Losses are realizable in even, decisions matter, saying "I made a mistake" should not lesson this.

No it doesn't. It just makes the decision/mistake not permanent.

Gizznitt Malikite wrote:

3.) If it was frequent enough (annual or more), why bother training at any rate other than max... Map Int/Mem or Prec/Will... train marginal skills that aren't immediately important... and remap them once a year to off-map skills... You ultimately accrue SP faster, spend less on implants, and this method is inherently biased towards older players that don't need to train Ship skills, support skills, nav skills, which all have different attribute requirements.

Agreed, usage should not be unlimited. For example by linking it to Remap counter

Gizznitt Malikite wrote:

4.) It enhances FOTM and simultaneously diminishes the value of foresight. When big patches hit, things change... New ships and modules become in demand to both be flown and created... If you had the foresight and pretrained, you can take advantage of the changes while other players scramble to train up to do so... With a Remap... there is not advantageous period as people can insta-swap.

No, see 2 & 3
Nagnor
The Happy Shooters
#58 - 2013-04-05 01:53:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Nagnor
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:

5.) It destroys the character bazaar. Total SP a character has is not nearly as important as how they have that SP distributed. You essentially remove this aspect from the bazaar.

And the character bazaar is a good thing? It is a P2W, which is frowned upon by EVE players in general.
It doesn't give your control over your own character (name, appearance, ..). It allows scammers, awoxer and other wrong-doers to dodge consequence by getiting rid off bad reputation, (corp) history through buying/ replacing characters.

Gizznitt Malikite wrote:

6.) Even if you allow it only once in a character's life time, we all know you'll be whining and bitching again in another year how you've changed your course through EvE, and want to move SP around again...

How is SP reallocation significantly different than attributes remapping? SP realloc effects SP training in the past, where remap training in the future.
Or do you propose to remove remap as well?
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#59 - 2013-04-05 06:42:40 UTC
Nagnor wrote:

1.) You've already benefited from the skills you trained, and you can continue to benefit from them if you choose.

  • BS argument. Following this argument you shouldn't be able to sell ships you have bought in the past.


    • Your analogy is falacious. The correct analogy, following my argument, is you shouldn't be able to return a ship after you buy it, and guess what, you can't!!
    When you buy a ship in EvE, you can attempt to resell it, sometimes for a profit, sometimes for a loss... but you don't get to undo your purchase because you no longer want the ship. To even provide a relevant example, many supercarrier & titan pilots didn't get to "undo" their purchases when their supercaps were nerfed... while they could sell those assets, it was often at a significant loss!

    Nagnor wrote:

    2.) It eliminates any consequences for the SP Training decisions you've made. Your decisions matter, and saying "I made a mistake" should not lesson this.

  • No it doesn't. It just makes the decision/mistake not permanent.

    • Imagine I rat in a carrier... and one day I make a mistake that gets it destroyed... Should I be able to undo the consequence of my action and have it reimburesed... Is it right the mistake I made is permanent? Or how about if I accept a contract that I didn't read carefully enough, and it resulted in me losing a billion isk... Can I have that undone, just once a year... so my mistake isn't permanent? Guess what, in EvE... your losses are perment... your decesions are irreversable... Some things get a "are you sure you want to do this" warning... but when you CHOOSE to do it, you must deal with the consequences of your choice. The same applies to skillpoints!!!!

    Nagnor wrote:

    3.) If it was frequent enough (annual or more), why bother training at any rate other than max... Map Int/Mem or Prec/Will... train marginal skills that aren't immediately important... and remap them once a year to off-map skills... You ultimately accrue SP faster, spend less on implants, and this method is inherently biased towards older players that don't need to train Ship skills, support skills, nav skills, which all have different attribute requirements.

  • Agreed, usage should not be unlimited. For example by linking it to Remap counter

    • Remap counters are annual... I just explained that even annual SP redistribution would be abused... I have ~100m SP on my mains, and I would never unspec Perc/Will. I'd train at max rate all year... and once every year I'd simply redistribute my SP to instantly train new useful skills (like MJD, Target breaker Spectrum, Sensor Comp skills, etc)... this would not be a good thing!

    Nagnor wrote:

    4.) It enhances FOTM and simultaneously diminishes the value of foresight. When big patches hit, things change... New ships and modules become in demand to both be flown and created... If you had the foresight and pretrained, you can take advantage of the changes while other players scramble to train up to do so... With a Remap... there is not advantageous period as people can insta-swap.

  • No, see 2 & 3


    • Likewise-- see 2&3... Right before the summer patch, I could retrain to insure I pickup all the new BC & Dessie skills... Right after the last patch, I could retrain to produce BO BS's with perfect skills to profit from their buff... Last Summer I could have insta-trained to use and/or make t2 Siege/Triage modules. etc, etc... Big changes to the game happen 1-2 times a year... and this mechanic allows me to take full advantage of the changes with little to no foresight.
    Gizznitt Malikite
    Agony Unleashed
    Agony Empire
    #60 - 2013-04-05 07:35:50 UTC
    Nagnor wrote:

    5.) It destroys the character bazaar. Total SP a character has is not nearly as important as how they have that SP distributed. You essentially remove this aspect from the bazaar.

  • And the character bazaar is a good thing? It is a P2W, which is frowned upon by EVE players in general.
    • It doesn't give your control over your own character (name, appearance, ..). It allows scammers, awoxer and other wrong-doers to dodge consequence by getiting rid off bad reputation, (corp) history through buying/ replacing characters.


    There is a big difference between P2W and the character bazaar (and PLEX for that matter). You should also do a forum search to understand the subtle difference between pay to win, and the options available to EvE players, as it's been discussed many times. To summarize:
    Pay to win implies you get in game advantages for out of game money... That does NOT HAPPEN in EvE.

    This is subtle, so you need to think about it before responding:
    From anyone elses perspective... you buying plex does NOT enable a character to earn SP faster. you buying plex does NOT give you an isk advantage. Why? Because the isk you gained via selling plex was already in game... the character you bazaared had already accrued SP. Those assets already existed in game, completely independent of whether or not you ascertained them by exchanging game time for it.

    I understand, from your perspective... you spend RL money and gain a character with lots of SP, and a bunch of isk... so it seems like pay2win... but no new advantages were created via your purchase... Plex, and the character bazaar are actually very ingenious, as it allows people to exchange future game time for efforts already achieved in game. It is specifically NOT pay 2 win, because NO NEW ADVANTAGES are created via PLEX!!!

    Nagnor wrote:

    6.) Even if you allow it only once in a character's life time, we all know you'll be whining and bitching again in another year how you've changed your course through EvE, and want to move SP around again...

  • How is SP reallocation significantly different than attributes remapping? SP realloc effects SP training in the past, where remap training in the future.
    • Or do you propose to remove remap as well?


    In short, hindsight is 20/20, but foresight is much less clear.

    In other words, Attribute Remapping requires foresight... and is subject to error as the future isn't easy to predict. A pilots goals, desires, and situations change, and are not fully predictable (especially over a year). In contrast, SP Reallocation provides instant gratification by immediately granting skills you desire by removing skills that are of low utility. I realize you have to live with your remap for a full year... but that's a lot different than living with your training choices for your characters entire future. That permancy of your trainig decision really add weight to it... and its simply because you don't want to deal with the consequences of your previous choices that you would push for the redistribution.

    They didn't used to allow annual remaps, and they changed it because your attribute mapping significantly effect your training rate. In general, new players don't have the knowledge and experience to truly know what they wish to do long term in EvE, not to mention their goals are very much subject to change as they and EvE evolve through various emergent gameplay.