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Increased opportunities for PvP - Jump drives work only in nulsec

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Author
Mikhael Taron
Four Winds Industry
Roadhouse Regulars
#1 - 2013-03-29 10:12:55 UTC
As has been stated ad nauseum: SOV still relies heavily on hisec for its supplies. By using JFs from Jita they are able to resupply quickly their needs.

If jump drives no longer work outside of nulsec, any empire-sourced materials would need to be freighted to nulsec before jumping to sov space. This journey would give ample opportunity for strikes on the freighters.

It would be no longer possible to use alts in NPC corps to do this job, as they would be defenceless against attacks from griefers and losec pirates. Sov could opt to use Frog or other services to move their stuff out of empire, but that will hurt drastically the profitability of such a move.

The transport alts could form a corporation with a combat wing for escort. This corporation would almost certainly be 'discovered' and wardecked. I'm sure empire corporations would appear, dedicated to attacking sov-aligned corporations on 'their patch'. Sov would need to respond by coming into empire space, if they wished to retain the empire-sov caravan.

The effect on the empire economy might be less buyers for the market goods as the sov alliances move more to making their own stuff. It would make more targets available in nulsec; manufacturing assets would become more valuable. The attitudes of sov posters in the forums implies this is unlikely, however. Loss of face, and all that. "Driven out of empire space?"

So it's more likely there will be increased action defending caravans, and this would provide new opportunities for manufacturers.

In short: this simple change to the game can facilitate PvP as well as instigating warfare between the empire and sov alliances.

You can fool some of the people all of the time. You can fool all of the people some of the time. You can make a fool out of yourself anytime.

Hakan MacTrew
MUTED VOID
#2 - 2013-03-29 12:22:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Hakan MacTrew
So, to encourage industry in null, you want to screw up supply lines to high and low sec? You don't think this would be more likely to drive people back to highsec where production is much easier and safer?

Making null more profitable for industry than highsec would achieve your goal much better. Screwing the supply lines would not.
Mike Whiite
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#3 - 2013-03-29 12:33:05 UTC
increased oppertunities for PvP are created when it get's more intresting to do stuff not less.


Faction War revamp, has it's troubles but since there is money to be made in FW the population in low sec has been exploding, and that increases the oppertunities for PvP.

Not turning travel to a monthly allinace blob that travels to low.

sabre906
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#4 - 2013-03-29 12:35:10 UTC
Hakan MacTrew wrote:

Making null more profitable for industry than highsec would achieve your goal much better. Screwing the supply lines would not.


Yeah, then ppl unsubs their industrial alts and everybody gets to use meta 4 mods.Lol
Domanique Altares
Rifterlings
#5 - 2013-03-29 13:37:12 UTC
ITT: Increased opportunities to gank freighters without getting CONCORDed, because OP doesn't have enough friends to coordinate a highsec suicide gank.
Mikhael Taron
Four Winds Industry
Roadhouse Regulars
#6 - 2013-03-29 14:40:53 UTC
Screwing up supply lines to high and lowsec? People can still freight stuff between these zones. How does no JD affect that, other than increase the risk?

Fail wrote:

TT: Increased opportunities to gank freighters without getting CONCORDed, because OP doesn't have enough friends to coordinate a highsec suicide gank.

OP is a hauler; not into ganking in a badger. Fail attempt at misinterpreting what I mean.

confused wrote:
Not turning travel to a monthly allinace blob that travels to low.

Would need to travel the whole way between high and null if wishing to maintain complete cover for the freighters. Exposed to ganking by the empire corps.

No wonder there's a whiff of fear in these responses. I must be onto something.

You can fool some of the people all of the time. You can fool all of the people some of the time. You can make a fool out of yourself anytime.

Pan Dora
Stardust Enterprises
#7 - 2013-03-29 14:44:05 UTC
sabre906 wrote:
Hakan MacTrew wrote:

Making null more profitable for industry than highsec would achieve your goal much better. Screwing the supply lines would not.


Yeah, then ppl unsubs their industrial alts and everybody gets to use meta 4 mods.Lol


Rather people moving their industrial alts to null.



-CCP would boost ECM so it also block the ability of buthurt posting.

Teckos Pech
Patriotic Tendencies
Goonswarm Federation
#8 - 2013-03-29 14:56:32 UTC
Mikhael Taron wrote:
As has been stated ad nauseum: SOV still relies heavily on hisec for its supplies. By using JFs from Jita they are able to resupply quickly their needs.

If jump drives no longer work outside of nulsec, any empire-sourced materials would need to be freighted to nulsec before jumping to sov space. This journey would give ample opportunity for strikes on the freighters.

It would be no longer possible to use alts in NPC corps to do this job, as they would be defenceless against attacks from griefers and losec pirates. Sov could opt to use Frog or other services to move their stuff out of empire, but that will hurt drastically the profitability of such a move.


Why not? Null corps could still use NPC alts, it would be harder, but it could be done.

Quote:
The transport alts could form a corporation with a combat wing for escort. This corporation would almost certainly be 'discovered' and wardecked. I'm sure empire corporations would appear, dedicated to attacking sov-aligned corporations on 'their patch'. Sov would need to respond by coming into empire space, if they wished to retain the empire-sov caravan.


Again, why? I don't see it. You could use a NPC alt, put him in fleet. Tell everyone not to shoot so-and-so, clear the low sec gate, JF jumps in and then Jumps several AU into "safe" null sec space.

Quote:
The effect on the empire economy might be less buyers for the market goods as the sov alliances move more to making their own stuff. It would make more targets available in nulsec; manufacturing assets would become more valuable. The attitudes of sov posters in the forums implies this is unlikely, however. Loss of face, and all that. "Driven out of empire space?"


You will not get more null sec industry this way. The best way to get more null sec industry is to create incentives for null sec industry, not attempt to put in disincentives for high sec industry via nerfing logistics, because players are going to be very creative at minimizing risk, especially with an 8 billion isk JF.

Quote:
So it's more likely there will be increased action defending caravans, and this would provide new opportunities for manufacturers.


Most likely result, you'll get null sec blocks setting up 100+ man anti-camps in low sec entry points, or for groups like Goons no change at all given they often perma-camp the EC-/Torrinos gate already.

Quote:
In short: this simple change to the game can facilitate PvP as well as instigating warfare between the empire and sov alliances.


1. There is no existing mechanic for a war between the high sec empires and null sec.
2. Economic PVP has been won hands down by high sec.
3. Making it harder to use high sec's awesome economic capabilities is the wrong way to go.
4. Make the economic capabilities of null sec more viable.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online

Domanique Altares
Rifterlings
#9 - 2013-03-29 15:28:45 UTC
Mikhael Taron wrote:

OP is a hauler; not into ganking in a badger. Fail attempt at misinterpreting what I mean.



Everyone here knows exactly what you mean, Alty McAlterton. Removing the ability for JFs to jump from hisec directly to null will simply result in caravans of standard frighters and scores of gatecamps by nullsec 'pirates' protecting their new trade routes. It will not encourage industry in null and low. It will instead inconvenience everyone else all the way down to the null alliances' chosen jump points.

Then again, operating a Badger in highsec doesn't give one much perspective on what happens anywhere else, does it?
Mikhael Taron
Four Winds Industry
Roadhouse Regulars
#10 - 2013-03-29 15:35:18 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD Ezwal
Quote:
Why not? Null corps could still use NPC alts, it would be harder, but it could be done.

Instead of being able to jump right out of hisec the freighter would need to make the journey through the gates to get to nulsec. Saying it would be harder is to fail to grasp the logistical nightmare ahead of the freighter.

Quote:
Again, why? I don't see it. You could use a NPC alt, put him in fleet. Tell everyone not to shoot so-and-so, clear the low sec gate, JF jumps in and then Jumps several AU into "safe" null sec space.

*Snip* Please refrain from personal attacks. ISD Ezwal the freighter needs to move out of hisec. Fleets do not protect the freighter unless they are of the same corp, so that changes nothing.

Quote:
You will not get more null sec industry this way.

If you bother to read the title of this topic it isn't about promoting nulsec industry.

Quote:

Most likely result, you'll get null sec blocks setting up 100+ man anti-camps in low sec entry points, or for groups like Goons no change at all given they often perma-camp the EC-/Torrinos gate already.

How is that helping the freighter in its journey through hisec? Your attempt to confuse the topic being discussed has failed.


Quote:

1. There is no existing mechanic for a war between the high sec empires and null sec.
2. Economic PVP has been won hands down by high sec.
3. Making it harder to use high sec's awesome economic capabilities is the wrong way to go.
4. Make the economic capabilities of null sec more viable.



  1. Any alliance can wardec any alliance so this assertion is false.
  2. There was never any competition between sov and empire markets so this is also false.
  3. This is promoting PvP between empire and sov so I think it's most certainly the way to go.
  4. They are already viable. Players in sov would rather shoot stuff than create it. Fine! The price you pay is the empire alliances waiting to pick you off when you come into their space. Similar to how sov alliances attack anyone coming into their space.

You can fool some of the people all of the time. You can fool all of the people some of the time. You can make a fool out of yourself anytime.

Shahai Shintaro
Caldari Manufacturing and Design
#11 - 2013-03-29 15:43:04 UTC
This would just serve to eliminate most travel of freighters into null. There is no way in hell you can convince me to fly a freighter outside of high sec and I doubt frog would do it either so you just cut off null sec. Also, I think you forgot the unintended consequence of not allowing capitals in low sec. If jump freighters can't jump, why can caps?
Jacid
The Upside Down
Forfeiture
#12 - 2013-03-29 16:12:36 UTC
I think the poster has identified some problems facing eve however i don't think the ability of one sov null alliance to strike at another is the problem. Null industry is pointless atm, null sec only exporting PI, high end minerals and moon goos. If you want to solve the issue with null industry the only solution is to make finished products that can only be built in null either through large volume inputs only produced in null making it cost prohibitive to move the raw materials to HS or sov mechanics limiting the building of certain items to sov owned space like supercap construction. Neither solution would harm high sec industry and would add to the overall game.

My 2 Cents
War Kitten
Panda McLegion
#13 - 2013-03-29 16:21:29 UTC
LOL


You also forget that carriers, dreads and supercaps all use jump drives too, but cannot use gates. Or were you intending that they just all get evicted from lowsec to some random null system and never go back?

I don't judge people by their race, religion, color, size, age, gender, or ethnicity. I judge them by their grammar, spelling, syntax, punctuation, clarity of expression, and logical consistency.

Tonto Auri
Vhero' Multipurpose Corp
#14 - 2013-03-29 16:25:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Tonto Auri
There's two issues, that I see myself.
The distance of a single jump, that makes it pointless to hold small area of , null space, and the overall inefficiency of industry in null.I have no idea, what part of a brain CCP used to put intentionally prohibitive coefficients to POS refining and manufacturing modules
These two, coupled together, make null manufacturing pointless.

Two most common elements in the universe are hydrogen and stupidity. -- Harlan Ellison

Neal Altol
What Shall We Call It
#15 - 2013-03-29 19:18:49 UTC
Mikhael Taron wrote:
[quote]Any alliance can wardec any alliance so this assertion is false.


For high sec it would be in an npc corp there it will be invulnerable to wardecs. At no point would the freighter alt not be in a NPC corp.
Teckos Pech
Patriotic Tendencies
Goonswarm Federation
#16 - 2013-03-29 19:36:29 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD Ezwal
Mikhael Taron wrote:

*Snip* Please refrain from personal attacks. ISD Ezwal the freighter needs to move out of hisec. Fleets do not protect the freighter unless they are of the same corp, so that changes nothing.


*Snip* Please refrain from personal attacks. ISD Ezwal
Fine, so you include low sec. What about other jump capable ships? How come they can jump into and out of low sec?

Did you think about that? No? *Snip* Please refrain from personal attacks. ISD Ezwal

Quote:

If you bother to read the title of this topic it isn't about promoting nulsec industry.


Great, so we'll get even less. Brilliant.

Quote:
Quote:

1. There is no existing mechanic for a war between the high sec empires and null sec.
2. Economic PVP has been won hands down by high sec.
3. Making it harder to use high sec's awesome economic capabilities is the wrong way to go.
4. Make the economic capabilities of null sec more viable.



  1. Any alliance can wardec any alliance so this assertion is false.
  2. There was never any competition between sov and empire markets so this is also false.
  3. This is promoting PvP between empire and sov so I think it's most certainly the way to go.
  4. They are already viable. Players in sov would rather shoot stuff than create it. Fine! The price you pay is the empire alliances waiting to pick you off when you come into their space. Similar to how sov alliances attack anyone coming into their space.


*Snip* Please refrain from personal attacks. ISD Ezwal

I wrote that there is no way for null sec to have a war with high sec empires...the latter would be the Amarr Empire, the Gallenete Federation, the Minmatar Republic, and the Caldari Empire.

You wont promote PvP this way. People are not going to just feed you or anyone else easy kills. Nobody is going to say, "Woot convoy duty!!!" People will avoid providing easy kills and boring stuff. As such you'll most likely turn null into even more of a Ghost Town...except for some alliances that have high-sec/null sec entry points such as EC-/Torrinos.

And have you looked at how combat mechanics work in this game? It is entirely possible that those pilots after these freighters can warp in and alpha them well before their convoy does jack **** about it. People have been ganking freighters in high sec where the response is ****ing Concord and guess what, freighters still die.

So no. This is a stupid idea.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online

Teckos Pech
Patriotic Tendencies
Goonswarm Federation
#17 - 2013-03-29 19:47:58 UTC
Jacid wrote:
I think the poster has identified some problems facing eve however i don't think the ability of one sov null alliance to strike at another is the problem. Null industry is pointless atm, null sec only exporting PI, high end minerals and moon goos. If you want to solve the issue with null industry the only solution is to make finished products that can only be built in null either through large volume inputs only produced in null making it cost prohibitive to move the raw materials to HS or sov mechanics limiting the building of certain items to sov owned space like supercap construction. Neither solution would harm high sec industry and would add to the overall game.

My 2 Cents


Since you can't jump into or out low sec, moving stuff from null to empire is also going to be a problem too. Nobody is going to run freighters full of moon goo, or tech2 components in freighters through low sec. Killing a freighter is just too damn easy in high sec, in low sec it would be laughably easy.

The only way to do it would be for a really, really big alliance to lock down the low sec route from beginning to end, and even then there are ways around that (e.g. a fleet of 150 logs out in system and leave a lone cloaked scout there to watch, everybody logs in and then warps in on the hapless freighter and boom...billions gone).

Right now, there is a symbiotic relationship between null and high sec. Granted it isn't great since this relationship is one reason why null sec is often so empty. But this idea breaks that relationship and replaces it with nothing.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online

Mikhael Taron
Four Winds Industry
Roadhouse Regulars
#18 - 2013-03-30 09:30:49 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD Ezwal
War Kitten wrote:
LOL


You also forget that carriers, dreads and supercaps all use jump drives too, but cannot use gates. Or were you intending that they just all get evicted from lowsec to some random null system and never go back?



*Snip* Please refrain from personal attacks. ISD Ezwal
I had not forgotten other ships use JD.

You can fool some of the people all of the time. You can fool all of the people some of the time. You can make a fool out of yourself anytime.

Mikhael Taron
Four Winds Industry
Roadhouse Regulars
#19 - 2013-03-30 09:32:18 UTC
Neal Altol wrote:
Mikhael Taron wrote:
[quote]Any alliance can wardec any alliance so this assertion is false.


For high sec it would be in an npc corp there it will be invulnerable to wardecs. At no point would the freighter alt not be in a NPC corp.


Correct. As I stated: being in a fleet would give no protection to the freighter. That's a looong journey to losec.

You can fool some of the people all of the time. You can fool all of the people some of the time. You can make a fool out of yourself anytime.

Teckos Pech
Patriotic Tendencies
Goonswarm Federation
#20 - 2013-03-30 16:24:25 UTC
You have been insulting people in this thread right from the start. Changing their names to things like "confused" and "fail". You have been insulting people's intelligence. And implying they are on medication for pointing to other problems (e.g. capitals that spend almost all their time in low sec). So spare us the faux indignation.

Quote:
If nul becomes "even more of a ghost town" that would be an incentive for the smaller alliances to try their luck and move out there. They would have the logistics and be forewarned of the industrial requirements. the current alliances would have failed because, as you say, they won't involve themselves in self-sufficiency and will fail as a result. This can be only good for the game as a whole. Maybe not so much for those who currently hold sov space, but that's not a game-wide problem.


No, because if big alliances with lots of pilots can't get their stuff in and out of null, smaller alliances will have even more trouble. And, they would have the same logistical nightmares of the bigger alliances with even less resources (read pilots) to deal with them. And are going to be even less reluctant to feed easy kills to those in low sec. They wont have the resources to handle losses of a couple of jump freighters.

Quote:
Correct, which is why these NPC-corp alts could not function; they would need to be in a player corp to enable the fleet to render assistance in the event of an attack


Yes NPC-corp alts would function just fine. They can be in an NPC corp and still join the fleet and get all the benefits of being in fleet...what few there are. And even if they were in the same corp they would be just as susceptible to alpha strikes as when they are in and NPC corp.

When you wrote:

Quote:
As I stated: being in a fleet would give no protection to the freighter.


That is actually about the only thing you have written that is correct...but it also means you wont see the freighter convoys you are talking about.

And here is an alternate scenario to your "smaller alliances might move to null" you'll get even fewer super coalitions. As I already noted Goons and the CFC have the EC-/Torrinos entry to null, Torrinos is high sec, EC- null. And goons already camp EC- fairly regularly...so the JF warps to the EC- gate jumps in, then jumps to VFK. Samething for moving null sec supplied goods (PI and tech 2 components). So the CFC would not be bothered too much. And TEST/HBC would probably be okay too using Efah/3-F. Granted Efah is low sec, but it is one system so very doable for a coalition the size of the HBC. And they have Keberz/HED entry point as well.

The South East and Eastern portions of null might have issues and could end up falling to TEST/HBC/CFC or some other super-coalition eventually since there isn't a high sec/null sec entry point (that I can see, haven't spent much time down there). And NPC null like Stain and Venal? Nobody will live there anymore other than the surrounding null sec coalition members. Currently 401k is basing out of Venal and hitting goons, but with no way of doing logistics from empire to Venal, they would be...well screwed. Can't evac their supers, titans, carriers and dreads to low sec and they can't jump to any surrounding sov space. NPC Delve...it would be held entirely by TEST/HBC since nobody could do logistics there anymore either.

So much of NPC null will no longer be home to alliances like 401k, Black Legion nor could they be used effectively as staging systems for invasions (e.g. IT used Fountain core for its invasion, NPC Delve is often the staging point for wars/invasions of Delve, similarly the the NPC space in Pure Blind). This could very well make null sec even more stagnant and dominated by just a handful of giant coalitions...much like the Chinese server.

http://go-dl.eve-files.com/media/corp/VeriteChina/Cinfluence.png

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online

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