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So the DEVs are listening now.

Author
NoLimit Soldier
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#1 - 2011-10-16 00:17:34 UTC  |  Edited by: NoLimit Soldier
With super capitals getting nerfed and blasters being looked at this could end up being an interesting winter expansion.

While we are looking at the balance of ships I want to make a serious suggestion that would replace any need for "content" and seriously bring back some subs.


EQUALITY AMONG THE T1 TIERS!!!

You just instantly created 20 more viable ships and countless new things to do with them.

With T2 you had groups like the tank AF, the gank AF, the cloaky recon, the damage recon, etc.


Kestrels and stabbers and the ferox want to actually see some real use.

I have a dream, that one day little condors and little breachers will have a place along side rifters and merlins.
NoLimit Soldier
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#2 - 2011-10-17 15:49:15 UTC
I want a developer to answer why we still have ship tiers.

I DEMAND ANSWERS!


Uppsy Daisy
Perkone
Caldari State
#3 - 2011-10-17 15:55:40 UTC
Could you maybe explain a bit more clearly what you mean?

The lower tier ships seem to have a purpose at the moment.

They are for new starters, and they are the start of the cost vs performance curve.

They cost very little and perform badly.
Wacktopia
State War Academy
Caldari State
#4 - 2011-10-17 17:05:40 UTC
Ok, right, if you remove Brutix then how are Goons gonna gank ice miners?

Kitchen sink? Seriousy, get your ship together -  Fleet-Up.com

Cyniac
Twilight Star Rangers
#5 - 2011-10-17 17:27:49 UTC
I'd want to keep my Dominix. Thank you very much.
Vimsy Vortis
Shoulda Checked Local
Break-A-Wish Foundation
#6 - 2011-10-17 17:39:36 UTC
I think he's refering to the stratification of ships within each class in terms of the number of high, low and med slots on them and their general EHP levels and PG/CPU.

I kind of aggree, I think it would be nice for the Omen to actually be a useable ship and for the Vexor to actually be able to fit guns and an armor tank at the same time. The frigs of course would benefit the most from getting their stats and slot quantities leveled out a bit, people might actually fly breachers and inquisitors and the T1 ewar frigs might actually work.
Tamiya Sarossa
Resistance is Character Forming
#7 - 2011-10-17 18:11:07 UTC
On the con side, making these ships decent would mean you could no longer get fights from risk-averse pvpers by flying subpar ships.

But ehhh probably worth it.
Tanya Powers
Doomheim
#8 - 2011-10-17 18:28:35 UTC
Uppsy Daisy wrote:
The lower tier ships seem to have a purpose at the moment.


Some of them give you best isk in reprocess than the price you've paid for them, this is awesome, so yes they're usefull thank you so much.

Sydney Nelson
Nelson Universal Aerospace
#9 - 2011-10-17 19:25:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Sydney Nelson
So what you're suggesting is:
Tier 1 ships should be given a specialized "role"?
Make them "equal" to the reast of the T1 ships, but yet different because they have a different inteded "role" to fill?

How much should these new "specific role ships" cost?

If a tier 1 ship is just as good as a tier 2 or tier 3, then they should all cost about the same. (and have the same skill requirements to fly)

Interesting idea, but I don't like it.

What will low skill/isk pilots fly?

The whole point of having different tiers is for progression.

There NEEDS to be a cheap, low skill req. ship in each category.
If it's cheap and requires low-skills, it has to be less effective.
Otherwise everybody would fly the cheap, but just as good ship, and the rest would not get used as much.
This already happens a lot with the T2 frigs and cruisers.

I can see how it would give the Veterans more options, but you're forgeting about the newer players, who are still progressing.

Personally I think it would be better if there were more T2, and faction (pirate too), BC and up.

This way Veterans could progress form thier chosen tier-level ship into a T2/faction version.
I know this already exists, but not for tier 3 BSs and there are no faction BCs etc.

Basically I want a Pirate tier 3 BS and a T2, tier 3 BS.
Like a Serpentis Hyperion or a T2 BS that can actually be used for PVP.
MORE PROGRESSION, not less!
Templar Dane
Amarrian Vengeance
Team Amarrica
#10 - 2011-10-18 00:48:03 UTC
Sydney Nelson wrote:
So what you're suggesting is:
Tier 1 ships should be given a specialized "role"?
Make them "equal" to the reast of the T1 ships, but yet different because they have a different inteded "role" to fill?

How much should these new "specific role ships" cost?

If a tier 1 ship is just as good as a tier 2 or tier 3, then they should all cost about the same. (and have the same skill requirements to fly)

Interesting idea, but I don't like it.

What will low skill/isk pilots fly?

The whole point of having different tiers is for progression.

There NEEDS to be a cheap, low skill req. ship in each category.
If it's cheap and requires low-skills, it has to be less effective.
Otherwise everybody would fly the cheap, but just as good ship, and the rest would not get used as much.
This already happens a lot with the T2 frigs and cruisers.

I can see how it would give the Veterans more options, but you're forgeting about the newer players, who are still progressing.

Personally I think it would be better if there were more T2, and faction (pirate too), BC and up.

This way Veterans could progress form thier chosen tier-level ship into a T2/faction version.
I know this already exists, but not for tier 3 BSs and there are no faction BCs etc.

Basically I want a Pirate tier 3 BS and a T2, tier 3 BS.
Like a Serpentis Hyperion or a T2 BS that can actually be used for PVP.
MORE PROGRESSION, not less!


The price/skill difference means very little beyond the first couple of days.

There is no reason to have ****** ships around. Add some fittings/slots/base stats to them so that they can actually perform in their intended roles. I see no way a noob could be hurt by that.
Headerman
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#11 - 2011-10-18 01:40:48 UTC
I beg to differ, pricing is VERY important for newbies up to several months when they can run L4's on their own. People still use cheaper ships, and some of them like the Cyclone are pretty underrated as it is.

Australian Fanfest Event https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&find=unread&t=90062

Tablecat
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#12 - 2011-10-18 06:53:31 UTC
NoLimit Soldier wrote:
little breachers will have a place along side rifters


Even within the current tier system, the humble Breacher is supposed to be on the same tier as the omnipotent Rifter. I ask the developers, where is the love for the Breacher?
NoLimit Soldier
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#13 - 2011-10-18 14:30:55 UTC
Headerman wrote:
I beg to differ, pricing is VERY important for newbies up to several months when they can run L4's on their own. People still use cheaper ships, and some of them like the Cyclone are pretty underrated as it is.



I beg to differ with prejudice.

The only thing cost has ever determined is the HULL SIZE/TECH LEVEL. I have never met some one who said they couldn't afford a moa so they bought a caracal. Or couldn't afford a drake so they went ferox. Or scorp instead of raven.


Leveling out the tiers for each hull will instantly add actually useful ships and completely change eve as we know it. We will all be thrown instantly into the lust of building new ships and unique designs with a ton of new, useful hulls.

They don't even have to be role based changes, that was just an example of one route to take. You put another mid slot or speed on the kestrel and *poof* it is a frigate to be worried about. Add grid or speed to the caracal and *poof*. Mid slot and EHP to the ferox. Just some EHP or grid for the raven, etc. (Am using caldari as the example given the amount of carebears in the thread already)



Quaaid
Phoenix Foundry
New Eden Syndicate
#14 - 2011-10-18 14:43:07 UTC
I think that this would be a positive change and would be easy to implement / balance around. It would certainly add options for both new and veteran players. The argument of progression is pretty weak as racial frig/cruiser/bs skill leveling is already massively beneficial via bonuses.

I don't see a reason not to do this.
Alara IonStorm
#15 - 2011-10-18 14:48:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Alara IonStorm
Yes, yes and god yes.

Cyclones with 6 Guns and 6 Mids.
Omen with enough Power Grid to fit out the lowest tier T2 Pulses an MWD and a 800mm Plate w/o a power rig.
T1 Logi's that you can use in PvP.
Thorax that can fit a set of Ions a MWD and a 800mm Plate
Condor's and Slashers that are more then Shuttles with Big Holds.
Punisher, Maller, Prophecy with a Dmg Bonus.
Stabber with 5 Highs, 5 Turret HP's, a 25m2 DB and 4 lows/mids.
A Caracal which can Brawl with HAM's.

Just a touch of Re-balance opens up so many cool new fits and can bring Lol Ships back to the fold.
ThatOneBlackGuy
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#16 - 2011-10-18 15:00:59 UTC
As the ambassador for my people I agree with this change 100%.
Sydney Nelson
Nelson Universal Aerospace
#17 - 2011-10-18 16:53:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Sydney Nelson
NoLimit Soldier wrote:
Headerman wrote:
I beg to differ, pricing is VERY important for newbies up to several months when they can run L4's on their own. People still use cheaper ships, and some of them like the Cyclone are pretty underrated as it is.



I beg to differ with prejudice.

The only thing cost has ever determined is the HULL SIZE/TECH LEVEL. I have never met some one who said they couldn't afford a moa so they bought a caracal. Or couldn't afford a drake so they went ferox. Or scorp instead of raven.


Leveling out the tiers for each hull will instantly add actually useful ships and completely change eve as we know it. We will all be thrown instantly into the lust of building new ships and unique designs with a ton of new, useful hulls.

They don't even have to be role based changes, that was just an example of one route to take. You put another mid slot or speed on the kestrel and *poof* it is a frigate to be worried about. Add grid or speed to the caracal and *poof*. Mid slot and EHP to the ferox. Just some EHP or grid for the raven, etc. (Am using caldari as the example given the amount of carebears in the thread already)





"With Prejudice" is exactly right.
You do know what that means right?

You obviously don't understand what we are trying to tell you.
This will probably be a futile effort to help you understand as I can tell you posses very little empathy.

Cheap ships are NEEDED for those players who have RL responsibilities and obligations. For those of you who have plenty of leisure time to play EVE 2-5 hours (or whatever) per day, cost is of very little consequence. You can rake-in so much ISK, that the difference between 100mil and 300mil means a couple of days (if that).

There ARE however those players who can only afford 2-4 hours a WEEK of play time because they have a full-time job, kids, etc.

I am one of those players.
For someone like me, the difference between 100mil and 300mil was more-like 6 months. (Keep in mind I hadn't gotten to lvl4s yet.)
It took me almost a YEAR of playing to get into my first BS. (I was dumb, and wouldn't settle for the Dominix because it was just too ugly, so I saved-up until I could afford a Mega.)
Getting into that first BS was a HUGE turning point in my EVE carreer. Now that I can run 2-3 lvl4s once or twice a week, the price difference is rather moot, BUT for a new player, who doesn't have that much time, the price difference it HUGE.

Do you understand now why a cheap tier in each progression is essential?
You will probably counter something to the effect that;
"Players like you represent a tiny fraction of the EVE player-base, I don't care about you."
I think there are actually quite a few of players like me out there, and coming-up in the ranks we NEED those cheaper ships.

Get-out of your own shoes for a minute. Is allowing us players who don't have much time to dedicate to EVE this small concession such a hardship for you?

If you want further options for progression, petition for more ADVANCED ships. Don't take-away the cheap, entry-level ships.
We all know you would get bored with them after a couple of months anyway.
NoLimit Soldier
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#18 - 2011-10-18 17:10:12 UTC  |  Edited by: NoLimit Soldier
Sydney Nelson wrote:


"With Prejudice" is exactly right.
You do know what that means right?

You obviously don't understand what we are trying to tell you.
This will probably be a futile effort to help you understand as I can tell you posses very little empathy.

Cheap ships are NEEDED for those players who have RL responsibilities and obligations. For those of you who have plenty of leisure time to play EVE 2-5 hours (or whatever) per day, cost is of very little consequence. You can rake-in so much ISK, that the difference between 100mil and 300mil means a couple of days (if that).

There ARE however those players who can only afford 2-4 hours a WEEK of play time because they have a full-time job, kids, etc.

I am one of those players.
For someone like me, the difference between 100mil and 300mil was more-like 6 months. (Keep in mind I hadn't gotten to lvl4s yet.)
It took me almost a YEAR of playing to get into my first BS. (I was dumb, and wouldn't settle for the Dominix because it was just too ugly, so I saved-up until I could afford a Mega.)
Getting into that first BS was a HUGE turning point in my EVE carreer. Now that I can run 2-3 lvl4s once or twice a week, the price difference is rather moot, BUT for a new player, who doesn't have that much time, the price difference it HUGE.

Do you understand now why a cheap tier in each progression is essential?
You will probably counter something to the effect that;
"Players like you represent a tiny fraction of the EVE player-base, I don't care about you."
I think there are actually quite a few of players like me out there, and coming-up in the ranks we NEED those cheaper ships.

Get-out of your own shoes for a minute. Is allowing us players who don't have much time to dedicate to EVE this small concession such a hardship for you?

If you want further options for progression, petition for more ADVANCED ships. Don't take-away the cheap, entry-level ships.
We all know you would get bored with them after a couple of months anyway.


Sorry I was using the hostility version of the definition. Regardless I'm going to show you something because either you are REALLY bad at this game or you do not understand.

(Using Eve-Central for median sell price)

Kestrel: 250,000
Merlin: 240,500

Caracal :3,844,998.97
Moa: 6,300,000.00

Ferox: 19,399,999.99
Drake: 25,904,000.99

Scorp: 58,500,000
Raven: 82,500,000.00

Now where exactly is this HUGE disparity** that would justify this statement:
Quote:
For someone like me, the difference between 100mil and 300mil was more-like 6 months


What tech1 Hull costs 300MIL? I'm pretty sure a drake runs missions better than the scorp would which ruins your entire argument. Go back to hello kitty island adventure.


** And that is disparity as in "the difference" definition as it seems like I need crayons for you.

****Also a few hours a week is actually a lot of play time for me.
Sydney Nelson
Nelson Universal Aerospace
#19 - 2011-10-18 19:06:19 UTC
NoLimit Soldier wrote:

Stuff. Insults. Stuff



Wow! No need for the insults.

Why on earth would you assume I don't know the deffinition of disparity?

I didn't say the difference between 100mil and 300mil applied to any particular ships.
Maybe you would like to re-read my post?

I was just using that as a general example to make a point.

The fact remains,
200m to a frequent player (running lvl4 missions, assuming 20mil/hour for argument's sake) = roughly 10 hours = 2-4 days (2.5-5 hours a day).

200m to an player who doesn't play as often = roughly 10 hours (assuming they are already running lvl4s efficiently) = 14-28 days (2.5-5 hours a week).

Hmmm... My dictionary doesn't seem to have a "hostility version"...
No matter what movie you heard it in, or context you refer to "with prejudice" always carries the same general definition.
It means you will do (or think) whatever you're planning on doing (or thinking), and you wont entertain any arguments to the contrary.
I know it sounds cool to say, but it basically means that you are intentionally planning on being ingnorant, biased, and unwilling to be dissuaded no matter what arguments are presented.

Which is very evident in your above post...

Anyways, to avoid pointless argument about un-related issues, I will get to the point.

Using your provided ship-price examples...
Oops! It seems you "accidentally" left-out the lower-tier frigs which are MUCH cheaper. (That was the whole point of the debate right?)
Seems you also left-out the first couple tiers of Cruisers, and the top tier of BS. (Biased info much?)
Oh well, I'll work with what you gave me anyways.

Caracal 3.8 mil
Moa 6.3 mil
Difference 2.5 mil

If you're a new player plugging-away at lvl 1s and 2s in your frig or destroyer trying to get into a cruiser, that's a pretty big difference.
2.5 mil at 50k-200k isk/hour (lvl1s and 2s) would be: 20 hours of play-time (give or take based on estimations).
To a frequent player (3 hours a day) 20 hours is 4-5 days.
For someone who plays once or twice a week that's 4-5 weeks of playing.
If the Caracal was "just as good" as the Moa, it would cost about the same. If they cost about the same, it would mean about an extra month for a starting player to get into a cruiser.

The entire time disparity is multiplied as the player progresses towards the big ships.

At least with the "entry level" ships, someone who doesn't play a bunch can get into that next class of ship (and subsequently the next level of missions) without spending weeks extra plugging-away in a lower-class ship because the gap from class to class is too big.

So while the price difference might seem trivial to frequent players (a week or two), it means months and months of difference to people that can't play very often.

That is exactly WHY CCP has cheap, tier 1 ships.
NoLimit Soldier
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#20 - 2011-10-18 20:36:10 UTC
Sydney Nelson wrote:
NoLimit Soldier wrote:

Stuff. Insults. Stuff



Why on earth would you assume I don't know the deffinition of disparity?
+
Hmmm... My dictionary doesn't seem to have a "hostility version"...


Because you need a better dictionary, 3rd entry for "prejudice" :

"Harm or injury that results or may result from some action or judgment"

Also I'm pretty sure you can't just make up numbers to support your argument. I'm not even a care bear and I know 20MIL an hour is horrid.

Sydney Nelson wrote:



Using your provided ship-price examples...
Oops! It seems you "accidentally" left-out the lower-tier frigs which are MUCH cheaper. (That was the whole point of the debate right?)
Seems you also left-out the first couple tiers of Cruisers, and the top tier of BS. (Biased info much?)
Oh well, I'll work with what you gave me anyways.


Jesus you have be the biggest tool ever. My whole argument is that some ships are sub-par for no reason and you mention that I left out the 2 cruisers in the caldari line up that HAVE A CLEAR AND DEFINED ROLE. The blackbird and Osprey? Really?

I only put frigates in there for comparison considering you kind of get them for free when you start out.

Sydney Nelson wrote:

If the Caracal was "just as good" as the Moa, it would cost about the same. If they cost about the same, it would mean about an extra month for a starting player to get into a cruiser.


This is where I really lost it. You really have no idea what game you are even playing do you? The caracal is 100x better at runing missions than the moa. And not only that, it isn't the demand for this T1 piece of poop that determines the cost. It is the PRODUCTION COST. I know you don't play this game but a few hours a week but come on.

Caracal vs Moa Production Cost.
Tritanium
338,237 vs 608,212
Pyerite Pyerite
84,924 vs 152,691
Mexallon Mexallon
27,840 vs 39,508
Isogen Isogen
5,812 vs 9,590
Nocxium Nocxium
1,404 vs 2,363
Zydrine Zydrine
304 vs 595
Megacyte Megacyte
84 vs 176

Sydney Nelson wrote:

That is exactly WHY CCP has cheap, tier 1 ships.


That is exactly why CCP shouldn't listen to people who don't even play their game.
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