These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

EVE General Discussion

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

Log on camps Illegal or not?

Author
Rek Seven
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#41 - 2013-03-28 17:47:18 UTC
Oswald Bolke wrote:
yeah, I can see how a single instance or coincidence like having a ferw corp members log on to help a buddy in need, But I mean in this case, a coordinated group that in mass logs on and immediately undocks.



And wow, I'm surprised by that. It's really one of the lamest tactics I can think of. I'm in the opinion that when you are in game setting a trap it's fair, but sitting logged off is just a cheap way to be invisible and not have to use a cloak.


It's unfair because people log on, undock and then kill you?
Corey Fumimasa
The Organization of Thunder and Lightning
Space Quacks Alliance
#42 - 2013-03-28 18:03:51 UTC
Georgina Parmala wrote:
Corey Fumimasa wrote:
Cane said that there needs to be a session change though, otherwise it is an exploit. I wonder what that is all about.

Joining corp

Specifically joining a corp, that is at war, while in space.
Without a session change, you do not show up as a war target to the victims. Not in local, not on grid. But can freely shoot them without CONCORD intervention as they are in fact war targets.

Doing so will get you banned.

Edit: If I recall correctly, same goes to leaving a corp in space. You still show flashy red to them until session change, but are no longer a valid target. They go GCC and get CONCORDED when they shoot at you.

Changing corps in station while in system is fine though, as undocking is a session change that will update local and show correctly on grid.


I can't believe they dropped the ban hammer on that! What an awesome idea. Its a lot of finicky little moving around to get right and really just like the OV change for BC's a couple of weeks ago. Go figure.

Anyway thanks for the explanation G
Lord Fudo
Doomheim
#43 - 2013-03-28 18:53:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Lord Fudo
Oswald Bolke wrote:
Honestly, I think they should be...have a scout waiting with 9 people offline ready to log in and insta undock? there is no real counter for this, you can't see them on local so all you can do is suddenly get ganked hard.

A good player would be able to see local and notice a spike, but you window is so short because everybody almost instantly undocks after being in a totally invisible state


Sounds like a gank in w-space. Go to kill a lone ship and 20 tech3s decloak and **** you. Yet we dont see people bitching about it.

I think CCP needs to remove Local Channel from low/null so players arent having to log off/on to get around being seen in Local. Local Channel is nothing more than a cheat system. It takes no effort to spot someone in a local channel. Just remove it. Hey plus all the bitching and whining about afk cloakers will go away.
Brooks Puuntai
Solar Nexus.
#44 - 2013-03-28 19:07:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Brooks Puuntai
It use to be illegal(or at least a very very grey area), but I have a feeling they didn't have a good way to enforce it so they dropped it.

CCP's Motto: If it isn't broken, break it. If it is broken, ignore it. Improving NPE / Dynamic New Eden

Andski
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#45 - 2013-03-28 19:08:48 UTC
Sariah Kion wrote:
Its cheap and exploits non game mechanics. Anyone caught using these tactics should be banned for no shorter than 7 days for the first offense and then exponentially ramping up the punishment until the message has been sent.


i disagree

anyone who whines about login traps should be banned for no shorter than 14 days

Twitter: @EVEAndski

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths."    - Abrazzar

Tennessee Jack
Doomheim
#46 - 2013-03-28 20:11:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Tennessee Jack
Andski wrote:
Sariah Kion wrote:
Its cheap and exploits non game mechanics. Anyone caught using these tactics should be banned for no shorter than 7 days for the first offense and then exponentially ramping up the punishment until the message has been sent.


i disagree

anyone who whines about login traps should be banned for no shorter than 14 days


Oddly enough, this happens often in highsec, lowsec and nullsec. Generally wormholer's don't have to do that, they just need to get far enough away from d-scan, but it does happen there from time to time also.

It is a cheap tactic, it has no counter, and there is no real method of identifying it, unless you happen to know All of the Out-Of-Corp alts they fly, and where they are. We all pretty much agree it is a cheap tactic.

Allot of people do it though. See a war target on gate, other person goes after it, 5 seconds later, 15 other people login at the same time and crash the gate. No scout could have told you or warned you otherwise, no locator agent could have identified who the enemy was and where they are (I do not see you running 30 different locator agents just to identify where the group is, then planning your route). Its incredibly difficult to counter-gank that, because they themselves have alts in the surrounding systems, all unaffiliated, all unknown, all 1 to 3 days old. If they see a fleet, they don't log in. Now while some may say "Well they should have known it was bait", sure, but an intelligent person could have scouted ahead, ran d-scans, launched probes, etc. They could have gained "intel". There is no intel to gain in this situation.

To explain it in an even worse way, there is no wartargets in system, just 1 character, unaffiliated with any corporation you know of. (most in newb corps). You scout it, nothing, you scout every system in 5 jumps, nothing, you jump your "main guy" in, warp, jump to the next system (which is empty) and within 5 seconds, 15 targets warp in on gate. No amount of probing, intelligence, scouting, decloaking or the other, could have given you even the smallest inkling that such a thing was about to occur.

There is no "Honor" about this tactic. Spamming people's names on a forum won't do a damn thing, cause in the end, all they care about is the free loot, killboard, and that they ruined someone's day.

Is there a counter? No.

Is there any recourse? No. It is a complete surprise.

Now surprises are fine, but this one is undetectable in anyway, shape or form.

The advice by people who encounter this.... they say avoid these systems, and proceed to give a list. That helps little as the camp generally just moves over, especially if they have a target rich environment. They have total control over engagement, and there is no "counter", even if you launch scouts at every entry point, exit point, for 10 systems in a circle. It does nothing.

The issue with this, is that there is really no method of enforcing it as a illegal activity, except for registering the login times of accounts, with the registration of kills within a 1 to 2 minute timespan, followed by a petition from the victiim. This would cause one HUGE backlog in the GM's service load trying to process hundreds of death petitions due to login schemes a day (Hell probably an hour), as well as massive amounts of time investigating the cause, tracking down the accounts, and identifying whether the gank was caused by the logon trap, or stupidity on the petitioner, and if it was due to the trap, who to warn, and who to punish.
Alice Saki
Nocturnal Romance
Cynosural Field Theory.
#47 - 2013-03-28 20:20:27 UTC
No Local \o/

FREEZE! Drop the LIKES AND WALK AWAY! - Currenly rebuilding gaming machine, I will Return.

Tennessee Jack
Doomheim
#48 - 2013-03-28 20:43:39 UTC
Alice Saki wrote:
No Local \o/


Its more than no local. Its no D-scan, no probes, no scouts, no intel, no checking dock's, no checking other systems.... we all know the arguments already. If I am going to get jumped, I want it to be based on gameplay, my own mistakes, or an actual engagement. Not because I did not happen to know one of the guy's out of corp alts, and that they have been waiting logged off for the past 20 minutes on a gate for me to cross through. Waiting a system or 2 beyond while in game, and they scout me, find me, catch me.. blow me up. I'm fine with that.

Them jump bridging ahead of me to catch me while I'm trying to exit.. fine with that too (hell had that happen, had a fleet of 30 trying to escape nullsec, and the nullsec corp jump bridged ahead, and got a good battle going).

This logoffski stuff cannot even be identified as a scam, or good gameplay. Heck its not even bad gameplay, and no fault can be put on the "prey" no matter what they did to try to counteract the mechanic abuse.

It is mechanic abuse.
Varesk
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#49 - 2013-03-28 20:49:56 UTC
Oswald Bolke wrote:
Honestly, I think they should be...have a scout waiting with 9 people offline ready to log in and insta undock? there is no real counter for this, you can't see them on local so all you can do is suddenly get ganked hard.

A good player would be able to see local and notice a spike, but you window is so short because everybody almost instantly undocks after being in a totally invisible state


Name and Shame plox!


tia.
Georgina Parmala
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#50 - 2013-03-28 21:16:34 UTC
No counter? So you don't have them on watch list, didn't see 10 people log on move a few systems over and log off again?
And knowing full well they do this, you will continue to engage bait ships in predictable systems?

It is the prey's fault. They got caught with their pants down in a predictable system the logoffski crowd previously set up in. Then they let themselves get tackled in the system off a gate and/or aggressed the bait ship.

They might be invisible, but they're also immobile. Even when aggressing a bait ship the game provides you ways to disengage, shake the tackle and leave the system before the bad guys that just spammed the right side of your screen with logins actually show up.

Science and Trade Institute [STI] is an NPC entity and as such my views do not represent those of the entity or any of its members

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=276984&p=38

RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#51 - 2013-03-28 22:00:35 UTC
bufnitza calatoare wrote:
not illegal or an exploit. how ever...

joining a corp to get a surprise gank of war targets is.. IE

targets are fighting out side the station. you join and 20 others the corp deccing or defending corp and undock to kill the war targets I am sure is a exploit.


Nope. So long as you are docked or (last I heard) go through a session change timer between joining corp and attacking a WT, you're in the clear.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon

Mag's
Azn Empire
#52 - 2013-03-28 22:03:10 UTC
One of the oldest tactics in Eve. To say this is not Eve like, is rather funny tbh.

Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.

Oswald Bolke
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#53 - 2013-03-29 00:23:12 UTC
Varesk wrote:
Oswald Bolke wrote:
Honestly, I think they should be...have a scout waiting with 9 people offline ready to log in and insta undock? there is no real counter for this, you can't see them on local so all you can do is suddenly get ganked hard.

A good player would be able to see local and notice a spike, but you window is so short because everybody almost instantly undocks after being in a totally invisible state


Name and Shame plox!


tia.

kill link

still cant see why some damage was "unknown"
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#54 - 2013-03-29 01:24:31 UTC
Oswald Bolke wrote:

kill link

still cant see why some damage was "unknown"


Killmails are notoriously prone to being cocked up ...erhem... malformed for any number of reasons.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon

Tesal
#55 - 2013-03-29 01:51:33 UTC
A bunch of Goons killed me once this way. I was flying a Hurricane or something like that in the Drone regions. I found a single Goon ship and engaged. Ten Goons landed on me, blew up my ship and podded me. Obviously this is overpowered because Goons do it. Dastardly Goons. All of them can go to hell.
Tennessee Jack
Doomheim
#56 - 2013-03-29 01:51:54 UTC
Georgina Parmala wrote:
No counter? So you don't have them on watch list, didn't see 10 people log on move a few systems over and log off again?
And knowing full well they do this, you will continue to engage bait ships in predictable systems?

It is the prey's fault. They got caught with their pants down in a predictable system the logoffski crowd previously set up in. Then they let themselves get tackled in the system off a gate and/or aggressed the bait ship.

They might be invisible, but they're also immobile. Even when aggressing a bait ship the game provides you ways to disengage, shake the tackle and leave the system before the bad guys that just spammed the right side of your screen with logins actually show up.


That is one bad excuse because your applying this to war targets. It is not solely a highsec issue (applies to lowsec and nullsec and wormholes (aka: everywhere)) I doubt you can put every character you believe to be in your travel route on your watch list, war target or not and expect what you just said to hold any water.

Look.. 4 people just logged off.. It must be a trap!!! Where and when, I have no clue, whose is watching, I have no clue either, I'll send my scouts out who will do me no good, and I'll bring an army to catch the people who won't log back on...

Good grief....
Sir Bumps-A-Lot
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#57 - 2013-03-29 02:02:50 UTC
I reported a group of botters once. CCP took too long to take action so I went about it my own way and declared war on the guys. The guys were clearly botters as the second a WT jumped into their system all 6 of his dudes would immediately start warping to the POS. So I went to the bookmarked location in the belt, and logged off. 4 minutes after me logging off they would all warp back to the bookmark. The second I logged back in they would get back. They did it so fast that their Macks had enough time to align and warp before I could get there. So I had to have a scout watch the POS and wait for the botters to start warp to the belt, at which point I would login and catch them as we were doing same time warps plus they had realign time. For those of you thinking that this was just a ballsy miner, I don't think so as he let me kill 2 of the 6 before I had to go to bed for that night. Next morning he was in an NPC.

TL;DR without the logoff trick this botter would be able to keep up his antics.
Corey Fumimasa
The Organization of Thunder and Lightning
Space Quacks Alliance
#58 - 2013-03-29 02:16:52 UTC
Tennessee Jack wrote:

That is one bad excuse because your applying this to war targets. It is not solely a highsec issue (applies to lowsec and nullsec and wormholes (aka: everywhere)) I doubt you can put every character you believe to be in your travel route on your watch list, war target or not and expect what you just said to hold any water.

Look.. 4 people just logged off.. It must be a trap!!! Where and when, I have no clue, whose is watching, I have no clue either, I'll send my scouts out who will do me no good, and I'll bring an army to catch the people who won't log back on...

Good grief....



A logonski trap is the least (think for a sec, yes it is something I don't even think about) of my worries in low or null.

Its a fun little gimmick that's kind of a pain in the ass to set up and not guaranteed to work anyway, a million little variables could booger it up. Not the lest of which being there is no single place that I spend time in on a regular basis. Theres just no way for anyone to know where exactly to set this kind of trap.

This is only a fearful issue for the same conflict averse crowd who think there should be an opt out option for player aggression.



Corey Fumimasa
The Organization of Thunder and Lightning
Space Quacks Alliance
#59 - 2013-03-29 02:26:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Corey Fumimasa
Oswald Bolke wrote:


kill link

still cant see why some damage was "unknown"


Augoror seems like an odd choice for you guys. I would have guessed Exequror or Scythe.

And only 4 guys jumped you? Ha took this mess to bring me down http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=16856155 Big smile

FS, have fun, and learn from your losses. Maybe set an insta undock in any kickout station.

o/
BadAssMcKill
Aliastra
#60 - 2013-03-29 03:06:54 UTC
You want logging in to be bannable?