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Log on camps Illegal or not?

Author
Corey Fumimasa
The Organization of Thunder and Lightning
#21 - 2013-03-28 11:05:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Corey Fumimasa
Oswald Bolke wrote:
Honestly, I think they should be...have a scout waiting with 9 people offline ready to log in and insta undock? there is no real counter for this, you can't see them on local so all you can do is suddenly get ganked hard.

A good player would be able to see local and notice a spike, but you window is so short because everybody almost instantly undocks after being in a totally invisible state

Not an exploit. And your tone is that of...well let me find the vid http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ns9oAGnK9CU Check this out. Don't come to the forums and suggest that something be made into an actionable offence in game, its far more effective to file a petition for grief tactics.
Forum Clone 77777
Doomheim
#22 - 2013-03-28 12:11:08 UTC
This many people hate logon traps? Really?

Ive never done it, but if it makes this many people cry.. I will have to rethink my strategies..
Nova Satar
Annihilate.
#23 - 2013-03-28 12:30:08 UTC
Oswald Bolke wrote:
Honestly, I think they should be...have a scout waiting with 9 people offline ready to log in and insta undock? there is no real counter for this, you can't see them on local so all you can do is suddenly get ganked hard.

A good player would be able to see local and notice a spike, but you window is so short because everybody almost instantly undocks after being in a totally invisible state


Its no different to people jumping in from another system and warping to you, the times are about the same. I guess the only difference is you cant scout nearby systems to check....
J'Poll
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#24 - 2013-03-28 12:31:36 UTC  |  Edited by: J'Poll
Xercodo wrote:
Um....J?

Why are you topless?

Shouldn't the character creator keep that from happening?


It's a CCP bug.

I'm wearing the new Quaffe shirt but the forums arent up to date apparantly.

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Angelique Duchemin
Team Evil
#25 - 2013-03-28 12:31:57 UTC
Is this really that much of a problem?

Won't the victim be at the next gate before the gang even has time to undock?

The very sun of heaven seemed distorted when viewed through the polarising miasma welling out from this sea-soaked perversion, and twisted menace and suspense lurked leeringly in those crazily elusive angles of carven rock where a second glance shewed concavity after the first shewed convexity.

Othran
Route One
#26 - 2013-03-28 12:32:16 UTC
It used to be defined as an exploit years and years ago (2004/2005?)

However it was a double-edged sword - if you're going to ban people for (what could be) a client drop and relog then you're going to have to start reimbursing losses for the same reason. On top of that was the process of investigating, which usually wasn't all that viable with GM tools.

Its a lame tactic but if people want to use it to protect their precious k/d ratio then I wouldn't worry too much about it - use the notes tab on character info to label them as logon/logoff twats then next time you see them you know what to expect.
ElQuirko
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#27 - 2013-03-28 12:33:26 UTC
Not an exploit. I recently managed to get a home defense fleet welped by one of these - it's a good tactic. Scout noticed four tempests on dscan, they vanished (we assumed they'd jumped out), engaged a myrm on the gate and then 20 people log in on top of us.

Dodixie > Hek

Oswald Bolke
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#28 - 2013-03-28 15:17:47 UTC
Cyprus Black wrote:


By your own words and logic, a good player would be able to see local and notice a spike after being in a totally invisible state (regardless if it's players logging on or players getting bridged in by a Titan)

The mechanics are different sure, but the situation and end results are pretty much the same thing.


yeah, but you gotta get the titan to do that...rather than just using a station as a cheat log off titan. It also kinda like the "what if they jumped in from elsewhere" argument. It still takes time and some sort of effort to jump a corp member in and then have his buddies jump to me. If they are in other system I'll see a spike before they get there, or if im sitting right on the gate i'll see a fire

otherwise, hot dropping requires equipment, log in undock / log in ambush just takes button mashing and no skill training, modules or gear.

thats why it's different
Zircon Dasher
#29 - 2013-03-28 15:27:55 UTC
pussnheels wrote:
as far i know it isn't a exploit , but on the other hand it is lame and cheap and not very EVE like


i nearly spit my coffee out.Lol

Nerfing High-sec is never the answer. It is the question. The answer is 'YES'.

Zircon Dasher
#30 - 2013-03-28 15:31:47 UTC
Oswald Bolke wrote:

yeah, but you gotta get the titan to do that...rather than just using a station as a cheat log off titan


You heard it here folks. Spend enough ISK and everything is kosher!

Wait.... OMG GUIS!.... what about CCP micro-transactions! Pay-for-Logon trap! Everything would be fix'd!Lol

Nerfing High-sec is never the answer. It is the question. The answer is 'YES'.

Oswald Bolke
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#31 - 2013-03-28 15:50:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Oswald Bolke
Zircon Dasher wrote:
Oswald Bolke wrote:

yeah, but you gotta get the titan to do that...rather than just using a station as a cheat log off titan


You heard it here folks. Spend enough ISK and everything is kosher!

Wait.... OMG GUIS!.... what about CCP micro-transactions! Pay-for-Logon trap! Everything would be fix'd!Lol


you gotta train skills, oh and yeah anything ship you bring out you risk losing.

Thats part of the game, you can't just pick up a titan, it costs heaps of Isk, and skill time etc .
Ginger Barbarella
#32 - 2013-03-28 16:15:15 UTC
Forum Clone 77777 wrote:
This many people hate logon traps? Really?

Ive never done it, but if it makes this many people cry.. I will have to rethink my strategies..


This. :) Use it now, before it's nerfed by the whining of low-sec phobics.

"Blow it all on Quafe and strippers." --- Sorlac

Karl Hobb
Imperial Margarine
#33 - 2013-03-28 16:16:16 UTC
Oswald Bolke wrote:
Honestly, I think they should be...have a scout waiting with 9 people offline ready to log in and insta undock? there is no real counter for this, you can't see them on local so all you can do is suddenly get ganked hard.

A good player would be able to see local and notice a spike, but you window is so short because everybody almost instantly undocks after being in a totally invisible state

Sounds like you need more friends, OP.

A professional astro-bastard was not available so they sent me.

Din Chao
#34 - 2013-03-28 16:33:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Din Chao
J'Poll wrote:
Xercodo wrote:
Um....J?

Why are you topless?

Shouldn't the character creator keep that from happening?


It's a CCP bug.

I'm wearing the new Quaffe shirt but the forums arent up to date apparantly.

I'm wearing a new Quafe toupee.

on topic: Nerf local
Georgina Parmala
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#35 - 2013-03-28 16:47:44 UTC
Oswald Bolke wrote:
yeah, I can see how a single instance or coincidence like having a ferw corp members log on to help a buddy in need, But I mean in this case, a coordinated group that in mass logs on and immediately undocks.



And wow, I'm surprised by that. It's really one of the lamest tactics I can think of. I'm in the opinion that when you are in game setting a trap it's fair, but sitting logged off is just a cheap way to be invisible and not have to use a cloak.

Almost like it's a perfect counter to the overpowered mechanics of local and the watch list.

Also, as a general rule, our corp members log in on voice before logging into the game. That way they get to figure out what, if anything, is going on. Before shouting "here I am" to everyone in EvE that cares. Sometimes this results in "springing a logoffski trap".

For that matter, I've logged in just to check training without getting on voice numerous times. See instantly in corp chat "get in a combat ship and warp to me!". If it were to ever be considered an exploit, it would be impossible to draw a line of what falls under it.

Science and Trade Institute [STI] is an NPC entity and as such my views do not represent those of the entity or any of its members

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=276984&p=38

Sariah Kion
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#36 - 2013-03-28 17:07:29 UTC
Its cheap and exploits non game mechanics. Anyone caught using these tactics should be banned for no shorter than 7 days for the first offense and then exponentially ramping up the punishment until the message has been sent.

[b]Librarian and Exotic Dancer Extraordinaire Champion of the Working Men and Women of Empire Space Anti-Null Sec Opium Den Movement President[/b] Not the woman high sec wants but the Woman high sec needs. [u]A modern girl for a modern world.[/u]

Georgina Parmala
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#37 - 2013-03-28 17:19:56 UTC
Othran wrote:

Its a lame tactic but if people want to use it to protect their precious k/d ratio then I wouldn't worry too much about it - use the notes tab on character info to label them as logon/logoff twats then next time you see them you know what to expect.


Sariah Kion wrote:
Its cheap and exploits non game mechanics. Anyone caught using these tactics should be banned for no shorter than 7 days for the first offense and then exponentially ramping up the punishment until the message has been sent.

Please explain to me what is so wrong about using this to get little bitches to come out and play. You know, the ones that will happily engage you 6v2. Then turn tail and run badmouthing you in local, when it turns into a 6v6.

Science and Trade Institute [STI] is an NPC entity and as such my views do not represent those of the entity or any of its members

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=276984&p=38

Mascha Tzash
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#38 - 2013-03-28 17:25:54 UTC
This sound like a question to forbid metagaming in my ears.
Things like TeamSpeak, Vent, etc.

On the other hand... How can someone be so predictable, to be in the system where all the logged off guys "sit" in?
And... not looking at local count from time to time? Perhaps a spereate window for local could be an option?
Or hitting the D-Scan from time to time with a range of 100kkm might also come in handy.

There are in fact many options to avoid things like this.
And on another hand:
It allways feels wrong, when your ship gets smashed by a crapload of enemies who took advantage of beeing just more than you or when you loose a ship due to your own mistakes (not saying that any of this applies to your case). Learn from it and don't be a victim any more.
Corey Fumimasa
The Organization of Thunder and Lightning
#39 - 2013-03-28 17:31:48 UTC
Sariah Kion wrote:
Its cheap and exploits non game mechanics. Anyone caught using these tactics should be banned for no shorter than 7 days for the first offense and then exponentially ramping up the punishment until the message has been sent.

Each account has 3 character slots, in order to switch from one to the other you need to log off and log back on again. There's nothing wrong with a gang camping a spot, then logging into their mining characters, then logging back into their combat characters when the trap snares something.

When they drop on grid they run the same risk of counter drop that any fleet does. This isn't cheap or underhanded, its just another tactic supported by the Eve game engine. The counters and warning signs for it are the same as for cyno's or neutral alts.

How people can see this as "unfair" or something that GM's need to be bothered with is kind of a mystery to me. If CCP wanted to end the practice it would be a simple matter to have E-warp dump you in a random spot instead of the one you logged from. Cane said that there needs to be a session change though, otherwise it is an exploit. I wonder what that is all about.
Georgina Parmala
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#40 - 2013-03-28 17:42:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Georgina Parmala
Corey Fumimasa wrote:
Cane said that there needs to be a session change though, otherwise it is an exploit. I wonder what that is all about.

Joining corp

Specifically joining a corp, that is at war, while in space.
Without a session change, you do not show up as a war target to the victims. Not in local, not on grid. But can freely shoot them without CONCORD intervention as they are in fact war targets.

Doing so will get you banned.

Edit: If I recall correctly, same goes to leaving a corp in space. You still show flashy red to them until session change, but are no longer a valid target. They go GCC and get CONCORDED when they shoot at you.

Changing corps in station while in system is fine though, as undocking is a session change that will update local and show correctly on grid.

Science and Trade Institute [STI] is an NPC entity and as such my views do not represent those of the entity or any of its members

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=276984&p=38