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ECM Overhauling
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Nova Satar
Pator Tech School
#21 - 2013-03-28 12:45:18 UTC
i will always oppose ECM, it takes people completely out the game which is jsut wrong. But until CCP start to comprehend that people do fly in gangs of 5 and less, they will never understand how crippling ECM is to pvp.

Yesterday i was in a 3 man BS gang, and all 3 of us were perma jammed by a Scorpion from 130km away, we all had ECCM.....

CCPs view seems to be that on the whole its not that bad as they cant jam "everyone", but its becuase they think everyone is rocking aroudn in 30man fleets. If you have 6-7 people tops, and a falcon comes on field, you are ALL going to get jammed. End of story.
Stan'din
Pandemic Alpha
#22 - 2013-03-28 12:48:47 UTC
saltrock0000 wrote:
I'm sorry but all these people still crying for ECM nerfs are just idiotic and have never flown ECM.

Last time I'm going to explain this, a ship has a strength of say 7 on his jammer, target ship has a sensor strength of say 14 which neither are far fetched numbers. In this instance the jammers would jam 7 times out of 14, 7:14.... so 50% chance, now with their cycle time a 50% chance isn't as great as it sounds.

With these new sensor backup skills around now many more ships will have a higher sensor strength making them hard to jam, CCP have already nerfed the range of ECM into the ground as well as offering substantial buffs to ships sensors.

I admit being perma jammed is frustrating and annoying, but there are modules (backup arrays) to pretty much make you unjamable. So maybe spare a slot and fit one if it bugs you so much?

I remember the days of sitting out at almost 200km in a falcon jamming things then warping off and coming back doing the same as soon as tackle got close, that needed nerfing. Current mechanics are fine find something else to cry about, caldari are already pretty bad as it is!


Once ECM has been squashed I'd put money on the fact the cry-babies will set their eyes on sensor damps and arazu's scrambling and dampening a ship down blah blah....... If this trend of "balancing" continues we will all be flying yellow, blue, green and red space bricks all looking the same, fitting the same acting the same, ships and more importantly races need their "op" ships as a draw to that race.




And lets be honest for PVP Caldari are not really overlyplayed compared to Gaymatar, French and the Religious douchebags

ECM is the Caldari's strong point and it should stay like that.

Your about as much use as a condom dispenser in the Vatican.
Nova Satar
Pator Tech School
#23 - 2013-03-28 12:49:08 UTC
Xercodo wrote:
I say decrease the cycle time but lower the strength.

ECM hits more often but is less likely to succeed while also giving the target a chance to try re-locking sooner.


.....But then being jammed again before you can relock
Stan'din
Pandemic Alpha
#24 - 2013-03-28 12:52:26 UTC
Nova Satar wrote:
Xercodo wrote:
I say decrease the cycle time but lower the strength.

ECM hits more often but is less likely to succeed while also giving the target a chance to try re-locking sooner.


.....But then being jammed again before you can relock





If your so hum drum about being jammed, how about you bring your own ECM to the party .

you know by using that thing called a brain you might actually get somewhere

Your about as much use as a condom dispenser in the Vatican.
Nova Satar
Pator Tech School
#25 - 2013-03-28 12:54:37 UTC
saltrock0000 wrote:
I'm sorry but all these people still crying for ECM nerfs are just idiotic and have never flown ECM.

Last time I'm going to explain this, a ship has a strength of say 7 on his jammer, target ship has a sensor strength of say 14 which neither are far fetched numbers. In this instance the jammers would jam 7 times out of 14, 7:14.... so 50% chance, now with their cycle time a 50% chance isn't as great as it sounds.


This is just such bullshit though and i cannot believe anybody who believes this has ever participated in PVP.

Standard maxskill Geddon = 20 Sensor Strength
Falcon max skill with White noise jammer = 11 Strength

There is no way in hell he will only Jam you ~50% of the time. He will Jam you 9 times out of 10, if not more! Everyone who regularly pvps will know this.

Currently the best counter is Damps, but when scorpions can jam you from 150km, unless you;ve filled your mids with sensor boosters, eccm and damps then theres **** all you can do. Plus you wont have any room left for a point anyway.
Stan'din
Pandemic Alpha
#26 - 2013-03-28 12:58:20 UTC
" bring your own ECM to the party "

Your about as much use as a condom dispenser in the Vatican.
saltrock0000
State War Academy
Caldari State
#27 - 2013-03-28 13:10:02 UTC

Nova Satar wrote:
This is just such bullshit though and i cannot believe anybody who believes this has ever participated in PVP.

Standard maxskill Geddon = 20 Sensor Strength
Falcon max skill with White noise jammer = 11 Strength

There is no way in hell he will only Jam you ~50% of the time. He will Jam you 9 times out of 10, if not more! Everyone who regularly pvps will know this.

Currently the best counter is Damps, but when scorpions can jam you from 150km, unless you;ve filled your mids with sensor boosters, eccm and damps then there's **** all you can do. Plus you wont have any room left for a point anyway.



11 and 20.... so 11:20... so what 51%? Maybe you just get very very very unlucky in your pvp.

Oh and if you want to play the "never pvp'd noob" argument check my stats then come backBlink

People should really learn how to counter mechanics, instead of QQing and screaming for nerfs.

Scorpion 150km off group... that's a rather handy warp to range isn't it!Roll..... 4 scanner probes and a instant warp to will silence that scorpion pretty quickly. Or hey Snipe him.... Or move the battle field to a planet/another gate/station etc., or like you said dampen his lock range.

There are infinite ways to counter different ships, instantly claiming something's OP and coming on forums wanting a nerf is just the sign of a bad pvper I'm afraid.

Next its going to be, "I cant hit that frigate with my dreadnaught... MOAR SPEED NERFS!!!!"

\'''\<(o_O)>/'''/
Salana Drashen
Guns N'Ore
#28 - 2013-03-28 13:11:52 UTC
Nova Satar wrote:

Standard maxskill Geddon = 20 Sensor Strength
Falcon max skill with White noise jammer = 11 Strength

There is no way in hell he will only Jam you ~50% of the time. He will Jam you 9 times out of 10, if not more! Everyone who regularly pvps will know this.


Said by someone who has clearly never flown an ECM ship, nor has any clue about probability.
saltrock0000
State War Academy
Caldari State
#29 - 2013-03-28 13:13:18 UTC
Salana Drashen wrote:
Nova Satar wrote:

Standard maxskill Geddon = 20 Sensor Strength
Falcon max skill with White noise jammer = 11 Strength

There is no way in hell he will only Jam you ~50% of the time. He will Jam you 9 times out of 10, if not more! Everyone who regularly pvps will know this.


Said by someone who has clearly never flown an ECM ship, nor has any clue about probability.



Also a true EFT warrior

\'''\<(o_O)>/'''/
Nova Satar
Pator Tech School
#30 - 2013-03-28 13:25:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Nova Satar
Stan'din wrote:
Nova Satar wrote:
Xercodo wrote:
I say decrease the cycle time but lower the strength.

ECM hits more often but is less likely to succeed while also giving the target a chance to try re-locking sooner.


.....But then being jammed again before you can relock





If your so hum drum about being jammed, how about you bring your own ECM to the party .

you know by using that thing called a brain you might actually get somewhere


What so all of us can sit there jammed doing nothing? Sounds fun. Some people actually want fights, but at times its like running against a brick wall becuase of people with mindsets like yours.

Lets face it, every ECM thread is jsut falcon pilots and small gang pvpers whining at each other. Its slowly get nerfed though, and i just hope it continues. I dont actually mind getting jammed, what gets me is the mindset of the ECM pilots who want to sit at range with complete immunity and think their part of a fight

saltrock0000 wrote:



Oh and if you want to play the "never pvp'd noob" argument check my stats then come backBlink


And seriously, don't embarrass yourself. 95% of your entire stat value is made up of you being one of 400 whores in a single cap fight in 2010.
Arduemont
Rotten Legion
#31 - 2013-03-28 13:32:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Arduemont
Ivy Romanova wrote:

There are , but the very notion of adding elements of chance to something is stupid .
Thats why I am advocating the merging of ECM and sensor damps


There are already other elements of chance in Eve. Ultimately, your chances of glancing hits, critical hits etc are worked out through dice rolls. The rolls are effected by your speed, their speed, your tracking etc... but they are still dice rolls. There are many many more examples. Random number generator code is a very important part of any computer game, no matter how complex. Even if that wasn't true chance still effects everything we do in real life and therefore affects Eve. (To clarify there is actually no such thing as chance, chance is just a metaphor used to describe the effects of factors we are unable to see or predict).

You can't eradicate chance, from a game. That is just silly. ECM is working fine as far as I can tell. I personally think it's not powerful enough any more (wait for it... ).

"In the age of information, ignorance is a choice." www.stateofwar.co.nf
saltrock0000
State War Academy
Caldari State
#32 - 2013-03-28 13:40:01 UTC
I'd also like to add to this thread. LOGISTICS ARE OP!!!!!

Because the other day I couldn't kill a stabber in my talos when he had 3 logi friends... Logi is clearly way OP and should be nerfed re nerfed and nerfed again because of my 1 encounter with it.. and I lost!!! RAWRRRRZOOORRRRZ

\'''\<(o_O)>/'''/
saltrock0000
State War Academy
Caldari State
#33 - 2013-03-28 13:41:05 UTC
saltrock0000 wrote:
I'd also like to add to this thread. LOGISTICS ARE OP!!!!!

Because the other day I couldn't kill a stabber in my talos when he had 3 logi friends... Logi is clearly way OP and should be nerfed re nerfed and nerfed again because of my 1 encounter with it.. and I lost!!! RAWRRRRZOOORRRRZ



But saltrock0000 a good logistic counter is.... oh wait no..... ECM!!!!!

\'''\<(o_O)>/'''/
JamesCLK
#34 - 2013-03-28 13:51:25 UTC
The hit quality of guns is chance based. Just saying...

The issue isn't that it's chance based; it's that a successful jam is 20 seconds of agony where you can't do anything.
If sensor strength reduced the length of jams, and the odds of a successful jam were dependent on user skills and range (think guns, but with a 0% jam chance beyond falloff) I suspect there wouldn't be as much of an issue.

-- -.-- / -.-. .-.. --- -. . / .. ... / - --- --- / . -..- .--. . -. ... .. ...- . / - --- / ..- -. -.. --- -.-. -.- / ... - --- .--. / .--. .-.. . .- ... . / ... . -. -.. / .... . .-.. .--. / ... - --- .--.
Bishop Xsi
Hotel Culiacan
#35 - 2013-03-28 15:03:07 UTC
Never used ECM, so take what follows in that context...

Would it help if ECM prevented a ship from locking a new target, but could not break a completed target lock? Would that be a step in the direction of balance?
Nova Satar
Pator Tech School
#36 - 2013-03-28 15:50:54 UTC
Bishop Xsi wrote:
Never used ECM, so take what follows in that context...

Would it help if ECM prevented a ship from locking a new target, but could not break a completed target lock? Would that be a step in the direction of balance?


its actually not a bad idea...
MeBiatch
GRR GOONS
#37 - 2013-03-28 15:53:13 UTC
this is my idea for ecm:

Quote:
i came up with this nifty idea where ecm no longer breaks the lock of a ship but actually helps in determining the quality of a hit!

usually the chance to hit number is rated against x which is a random number generated between 0.001 to 1.0 which determind if a. the shot hits and b. how much damage the shot will do.

so the better your ships sensor strength the less damage is done to you and i fyou have enough ecm on you your sensor strenth goes down to 0 where shots can start doing wreking damage more often and less slightly hit..

it would take alot of work but i feel it would make ecm a balanced and not op game mechanic

There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... CCP Goliath wrote:

Ugh ti-di pooping makes me sad.
Yabba Addict
Legion of the Many
#38 - 2013-03-28 16:33:23 UTC
Nova Satar wrote:
Bishop Xsi wrote:
Never used ECM, so take what follows in that context...

Would it help if ECM prevented a ship from locking a new target, but could not break a completed target lock? Would that be a step in the direction of balance?


its actually not a bad idea...


It's actually a terrible idea, ecm would be unusable in small and large scale fights. Leave it as it is, it's already seen a slight power nerf that's brought it and ecm drones back to a reasonable level
ElQuirko
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#39 - 2013-03-28 17:41:26 UTC
MeBiatch wrote:
this is my idea for ecm:

Quote:
i came up with this nifty idea where ecm no longer breaks the lock of a ship but actually helps in determining the quality of a hit!




Isn't that called target painting?

Dodixie > Hek
Corey Fumimasa
CFM Salvage
#40 - 2013-03-28 17:43:50 UTC
This has been talked to death in F&I where it belongs.

Ivy Romanova wrote:

Any introduction of chance into a game is a GAME BREAKER.




As to this, I dont think I have ever played a game that didn't involve some element of chance. Even in chess sometimes you win just because some guy sits down at the table next to you with a dog that your opponent is allergic to or because the smell of spring is distracting to your opponent. How is a game "broken" by random events?