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Prolific Ripard versus Terrible Trebor

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Frying Doom
#41 - 2013-03-29 04:29:58 UTC
Friggz wrote:
Frying Doom wrote:
Alekseyev Karrde wrote:
Frying Doom wrote:

Ok lets see if you can answer a simple question

Do our votes have more or less power in the CSM election than they did last year?

honest it is an easy question.

More. Empirically and absolutely.

Boy that WAS easy lol

EDIT: There's a reason Mittani is talking down participation and why Sort Dragon of the HBC brought up the idea of a "protest" by filling the council with 0.0 guys on Voices from the Void. Automating voter preference, allowing the CSM to elect the chair, and decoupling seats at the conference table from the size of your voting bloc all reduce the advantages 0.0 blocs have enjoyed since CSM1

So our votes now chose 10 people that go to Iceland?

No the reality is that while there are fewer wasted votes the votes them selves do a lot less than they used too.


Why do you feel popular vote from voters operating on limited information before the term begins is a better way to choose the Iceland delegates than the CSM and CCP making an informed decision after seeing who puts the work in?

It depends on what you mean as better.

Better to show the candidates who the players chose and the views they hold or the members who will work better as a tool for CCP.

It is all about perspective.

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!
Friggz
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#42 - 2013-03-29 13:16:01 UTC
Frying Doom wrote:


Better to show the candidates who the players chose and the views they hold or the members who will work better as a tool for CCP.

It is all about perspective.


Isn't the entire CSM a tool for CCP? It exists to help CCP as a feedback tool. How exactly does one act as a tool for CCP against the interests of the players? CCP has a vested interest in making the players happy, being as we are paying customers. It's why they made the CSM in the first place.

So how is it one can be 'a tool for CCP'? Can you provide an example of how one of these 'tools' would act compared to an example of how you feel a CSM member should act? I just don't see what one of these 'tools' would be or do or how it would benefit CCP.
Snow Axe
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#43 - 2013-03-29 13:29:33 UTC
Friggz wrote:
Isn't the entire CSM a tool for CCP? It exists to help CCP as a feedback tool. How exactly does one act as a tool for CCP against the interests of the players? CCP has a vested interest in making the players happy, being as we are paying customers. It's why they made the CSM in the first place..


It's both. CCP's benefit of the CSM is having their own free sounding board of consultants, and the players' benefit for giving even the tiniest **** about the CSM is having 7 player-chosen lobbyists going to Iceland twice a year with the backing of 7 more player-chosen council members. While there's definitely overlap in these two concepts, they're not always identical, and that's why it's problematic when CCP starts doing things like choosing the majority of the Iceland seats themselves.

"Look any reason why you need to talk like that? I have now reported you. I dont need to listen to your bad tone. If you cant have a grown up conversation then leave the thread["
Frying Doom
#44 - 2013-03-30 01:00:02 UTC
Friggz wrote:
Frying Doom wrote:


Better to show the candidates who the players chose and the views they hold or the members who will work better as a tool for CCP.

It is all about perspective.


Isn't the entire CSM a tool for CCP? It exists to help CCP as a feedback tool. How exactly does one act as a tool for CCP against the interests of the players? CCP has a vested interest in making the players happy, being as we are paying customers. It's why they made the CSM in the first place.

So how is it one can be 'a tool for CCP'? Can you provide an example of how one of these 'tools' would act compared to an example of how you feel a CSM member should act? I just don't see what one of these 'tools' would be or do or how it would benefit CCP.

You are aware you just said that in effect Unions are a tool for employers, you might want to ask a few employers if they believe that is true, or whether they feel they are a tool for the Employes instead, as the CSM used to be for us.

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!
rodyas
Tie Fighters Inc
#45 - 2013-03-30 01:20:49 UTC
Frying Doom wrote:
Friggz wrote:
Frying Doom wrote:


Better to show the candidates who the players chose and the views they hold or the members who will work better as a tool for CCP.

It is all about perspective.


Isn't the entire CSM a tool for CCP? It exists to help CCP as a feedback tool. How exactly does one act as a tool for CCP against the interests of the players? CCP has a vested interest in making the players happy, being as we are paying customers. It's why they made the CSM in the first place.

So how is it one can be 'a tool for CCP'? Can you provide an example of how one of these 'tools' would act compared to an example of how you feel a CSM member should act? I just don't see what one of these 'tools' would be or do or how it would benefit CCP.

You are aware you just said that in effect Unions are a tool for employers, you might want to ask a few employers if they believe that is true, or whether they feel they are a tool for the Employes instead, as the CSM used to be for us.


Unions demand more money and benefits, and CCP is able to get the CSM to work for for just two trips and that is only some of the CSM. Also CCP has an easy time telling the CSM no to certain features and ideas, then business does with unions.

So the CSM is more of a tool to CCP under those circumstances.

Signature removed for inappropriate language - CCP Eterne
Friggz
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#46 - 2013-03-30 16:53:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Friggz
Frying Doom wrote:
Friggz wrote:
Frying Doom wrote:


Better to show the candidates who the players chose and the views they hold or the members who will work better as a tool for CCP.

It is all about perspective.


Isn't the entire CSM a tool for CCP? It exists to help CCP as a feedback tool. How exactly does one act as a tool for CCP against the interests of the players? CCP has a vested interest in making the players happy, being as we are paying customers. It's why they made the CSM in the first place.

So how is it one can be 'a tool for CCP'? Can you provide an example of how one of these 'tools' would act compared to an example of how you feel a CSM member should act? I just don't see what one of these 'tools' would be or do or how it would benefit CCP.

You are aware you just said that in effect Unions are a tool for employers, you might want to ask a few employers if they believe that is true, or whether they feel they are a tool for the Employes instead, as the CSM used to be for us.


No that actually is not what I said in any effect. I never brought up Unions or employers because they have absolutely nothing to do with CCP and the CSM. The CSM is not a union. It's not anywhere close to a Union. The two concepts are entirely different in purpose and execution. You are trying to compare two entirely different concepts that aren't even remotely related.

In a Union/Employer situation you have two different factions with mutually exclusive goals. The Company wants to maximize profits, which means reducing expenses, and employee wage and benefits are an expense, therefore the company's motivations are to give as little as possible. The Union on the other hand is there to represent the workers to get the highest wages and benefits possible.

The important key here is that the company and the union's goals are mutually exclusive and in opposition to each other.

That is not the case with the CSM. Both the CSM and CCP have a vested interest in CCP released the best possible product. They are two entities working together for the same goal, not two different entities working against each other to reach a compromise on two mutually exclusive goals.

I don't understand how you can feel one group is selling out to the other when they are both trying to achieve the same thing.
Alekseyev Karrde
Noir.
Shadow Cartel
#47 - 2013-04-01 19:33:33 UTC
I kinda wish Friggz had run this year

Alek the Kidnapper, Hero of the CSM
Frying Doom
#48 - 2013-04-02 00:35:04 UTC
Friggz wrote:
Frying Doom wrote:
Friggz wrote:
Frying Doom wrote:


Better to show the candidates who the players chose and the views they hold or the members who will work better as a tool for CCP.

It is all about perspective.


Isn't the entire CSM a tool for CCP? It exists to help CCP as a feedback tool. How exactly does one act as a tool for CCP against the interests of the players? CCP has a vested interest in making the players happy, being as we are paying customers. It's why they made the CSM in the first place.

So how is it one can be 'a tool for CCP'? Can you provide an example of how one of these 'tools' would act compared to an example of how you feel a CSM member should act? I just don't see what one of these 'tools' would be or do or how it would benefit CCP.

You are aware you just said that in effect Unions are a tool for employers, you might want to ask a few employers if they believe that is true, or whether they feel they are a tool for the Employes instead, as the CSM used to be for us.


No that actually is not what I said in any effect. I never brought up Unions or employers because they have absolutely nothing to do with CCP and the CSM. The CSM is not a union. It's not anywhere close to a Union. The two concepts are entirely different in purpose and execution. You are trying to compare two entirely different concepts that aren't even remotely related.

In a Union/Employer situation you have two different factions with mutually exclusive goals. The Company wants to maximize profits, which means reducing expenses, and employee wage and benefits are an expense, therefore the company's motivations are to give as little as possible. The Union on the other hand is there to represent the workers to get the highest wages and benefits possible.

The important key here is that the company and the union's goals are mutually exclusive and in opposition to each other.

That is not the case with the CSM. Both the CSM and CCP have a vested interest in CCP released the best possible product. They are two entities working together for the same goal, not two different entities working against each other to reach a compromise on two mutually exclusive goals.

I don't understand how you can feel one group is selling out to the other when they are both trying to achieve the same thing.

CCPs job is to maximise its profits.
The CSMs Job is to speak on behalf of the players and give us the best game we can have.

Are they mutually exclusive, yes they are otherwise players would find micro transactions to be acceptable and I think the summer of rage shows what the players thought about that.

The best possible product for us, does not mean the highest possible profits for CCP.

The CSM is our voice and the fact that you are unable to realise the fact that our best gaming experience does not equal CCPs maximum profits is astounding.

So the CSM is like our Union they are there for our well being and not the well being of CCP. They should work with CCP where possible (just like a Union), and work against CCP when it is detrimental to us, the players.

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!
TheGunslinger42
All Web Investigations
#49 - 2013-04-03 10:47:04 UTC  |  Edited by: TheGunslinger42
Intelligent individual
One who compares shooting spaceships in a spaceship game to slavery and ****

Pick *one*, bro.

Anyway, with regards to trebor and other "bottom-liners"... I simply cannot fathom why people are so interested in maximising CCPs profit. I'm a player, not a stockholder. My priorities lie with the game being fun. I don't understand players - and certainly don't support CSM candidates - whose only concerns are increasing subscriptions. Especially when subscriptions are at a high, and don't seem to be under any threat.

This attitude is ostensibly to "improve" the game and experience for everyone, but that crap goes out the window damn near immediately because the vast majority of these types suggest tossing out core game mechanics, if not the entire ethos of EVE, in favour of grabbing more and more players. What good would it be to attract wow-level numbers if EVE ended up not being EVE any more in the attempt?
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