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[Odyssey] Faction Navy Cruisers

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Donedy
Lulzsec Space
#621 - 2013-04-23 17:23:20 UTC
X Gallentius wrote:
The CNI has always had better agility than the SFI. (Caracal agility > Stabber too). The Caracal line has always had near OP agility.


Time to fix that?
Mojo Joo
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#622 - 2013-04-23 17:23:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Mojo Joo
Perihelion Olenard wrote:

So, you're upset that your navy stabber isn't the best navy cruiser, anymore? How is this a nerf when it stays pretty much the same? A rage quit over some of the other ships being a little more powerful than they were? You'd rather have it so your ship remains the best and the others are worse by comparison? Oh no, no balance is allowed.


The main problem is not that they want to nerf SFI, is their lack of imagination and the way how they chosen to do it.

Every race have their strong points, and that bring diversity and make things more interesting because make you to use your brain and use that advantages to counter other races specific advantages.

But no, thinking hurt brains so instead of keeping the minmatar specific strengths like speed, agility, low signature radius they hit exactly that ones.

Is much more beneficial for gameplay to use other ways to lower the power of some minmatar ship, following this game damn story: "minmatar - duct tape ships"; who are fast and agile but have lower tank than amarr for example...

So to be more clear for the ones who have problems to follow my argumentation and to see my point... is SFI to powerfull? Better decrease his tank! Do not transform it in a brick! You want to fly a slow, tanky brick? Fly damn ONI!

But is much more easy to make SFI and ONI the same, (and preferable as much mediocre is possible) so all lame mediocre players to feel avenged for inability to use their brains.

PS.
And for all the ones who have a psychological trauma because of "the powerfull" SFI... a SFI can be killed any time by an t2 fitted thorax! A cheap t1 cruiser!
X Gallentius
Black Eagle1
#623 - 2013-04-23 23:49:18 UTC
Donedy wrote:
X Gallentius wrote:
The CNI has always had better agility than the SFI. (Caracal agility > Stabber too). The Caracal line has always had near OP agility.

Time to fix that?
I think you missed the boat on that since before I started playing this game. Caracal has always been agile.
Donedy
Lulzsec Space
#624 - 2013-04-24 08:52:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Donedy
Well its not in racial line... Meh, i just want the SFI not be nerfed for all the reasons i said before. Im fine with the CNI.
X Gallentius
Black Eagle1
#625 - 2013-04-24 14:00:29 UTC  |  Edited by: X Gallentius
Maybe try to horse trade with sensor strength or anything else that got boosted with this pass for reducing the SFI agility. ?
Shingorash
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#626 - 2013-04-24 19:05:19 UTC
I think the Scythe needs another bonus, you cant really use all the high slots at the same time so having a gun and a missile bonus is rather pointless.

Wouldnt it be better to have a Damage or ROF bonus to both and then perhaps a Speed Boost or a Web bonus or something as the secondary?
Bouh Revetoile
In Wreck we thrust
#627 - 2013-04-24 19:12:32 UTC
Shingorash wrote:
I think the Scythe needs another bonus, you cant really use all the high slots at the same time so having a gun and a missile bonus is rather pointless.

Wouldnt it be better to have a Damage or ROF bonus to both and then perhaps a Speed Boost or a Web bonus or something as the secondary?

The bonus it have are doubled : 10%rof or 10% damage with almost as many guns as the others.
Shingorash
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#628 - 2013-04-24 23:54:10 UTC
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
Shingorash wrote:
I think the Scythe needs another bonus, you cant really use all the high slots at the same time so having a gun and a missile bonus is rather pointless.

Wouldnt it be better to have a Damage or ROF bonus to both and then perhaps a Speed Boost or a Web bonus or something as the secondary?

The bonus it have are doubled : 10%rof or 10% damage with almost as many guns as the others.


Id still rather see something else.
Drake Doe
88Th Tax Haven
#629 - 2013-04-25 00:35:24 UTC
Shouldn't the scythe have enough drone bandwidth/bay to field a full medium flight? It's suppose to be a mini typhoon anyways

"The homogenization of EVE began when Gallente and Caldari started sharing a weapon system."---Vermaak Doe-- "Ohh squabbles ohh I love my dust trolls like watching an episode of Maury with less " Is he my Dad " but more of " My Neighbor took a dump on my lawn " good episode! pops more corn" ---Evernub--
Vassal of Doom
Doomheim
#630 - 2013-04-25 00:57:31 UTC
Why not give the Navy Augoror a HAM damage bonus? You know, so Amarr can finally have a T1 (albeit faction) armored missile boat?
Alx Warlord
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#631 - 2013-04-26 03:05:54 UTC
I still think that the ship should keep their role... If T1 is logistic, the rest keep logistic...

Please read these!

New POS system New SOV system
Willy Eckerslike
Wealthy Tax Fugitives
The Curatores Veritatis Auxiliary
#632 - 2013-04-27 10:16:39 UTC
I like the Scythe FI. Always have done. However, with it's split weapons system it has always been a juggling act to get the best out of it with tight fitting constraints and in the end I always ended up flying it as a big destroyer rather than a light cruiser.

Now I see the upcoming changes and I am now hopeful that I can fit it and fly it in a more suitable 'cruiser style', but the split weapon system still worries me. Yes, I can fit it with guns and a utility high, or I could fit it with missiles/HAMs and a utility high but in either configuration it only gets a single weapon bonus compared to all the other faction cruisers. I could fit split weapons, but each system still only gets a single bonus.

I am happy with the new slot layout for the ship, giving more options on fitting - shield tank and damage mods or armour tank and utility mids. Nice.

What I would propose as a 'fix' for the split weapon system is as suggested earlier in the thread - do the right thing and make it like the new 'Phoon. Make it a fast missile boat and retain the flight of light drones (having 50m3 of drones might be a bit overkill), drop the projectile bonus and give it a second missile bonus such as missile speed.

Minmatar already have one autocannon fitted navy cruiser in the Stabber, so it would make sense to give them a different platform to fight from.
Chessur
Full Broadside
Deepwater Hooligans
#633 - 2013-04-28 02:11:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Chessur
So the new navy cruisers:

Omen Navy Issue: Fast as hell- but is completely useless. Honor tanked, this 4 turret cruiser is getting 329DPS with scorch. If your goal was to make it something like the slicer, it needs a damage buff to be competitive. The damage on this cruiser is completely anemic. And as i have said before- the power creep seen in EHP (especially in reagards to armor fits) makes 329DPS almost unplayable when coming from a turret based ship that also sports no tank.

Osprey navy issue: Again, fast, agile, and lost of versatility but it again has no DPS. It will be good for killing frigs with RLM. It fares slightly better as unlike the omen navy, it can at least sport a decent tank- but again it has anemic DPS.

Exq Navy: Its a blaster boat with lots of damage. However its lack of mid slots when compared to the thorax, makes me think that this is sub par in almost every way.

Scythe Fleet: Again with the split weapon systems. It has always been bad, and will be bad. With the TE nerfs and no innate fall off bonus, using medium projectiles will be a waste of time. So your stuck using missiles. Missiles on the whole with out any bonus to damage application shoehorn the ship into using RLM's. While the range is anemic, it can be fixed with some rigs. With RLM fit it can sport a decent tank, and has decent projection with great speed, and a flight of light drones. if you ask me this missile boat is far more adept at being a missile boat than the current iteration of the osprey navy. I like the changes, and hope to be flying this when it comes out.

Augoror Navy Issue: I really like the idea of this ship. Almost reminds me of an armor rupture. With a cap booster and scram, with the possibility of dual med neuts, this will be very potent and different when compared to most amarr ships. Looks nice.

Caracal Navy Issue: I like the idea of having the abbility to finally apply damage with missiles that are not RLM. However i don't like the fact that the CNI no longer has any type of projection bonus. HML's have horrible damage and application- so they are really not worth it anymore, on any ship. RLM's don't really need the innate expo radius bonus, and again are difficult to use with out any type of projection increase.

So we are left with HAMs. Even with perfect skills, drugs, implants, and two rigors- applying damage is hard. Couple that with the fact that the CNI doesn't have the fitting room to sport a decent tank- and you are left with a serious problem. Brawl- with limited utility mids, and terrible tank (when compared to other brawling setups) or fit your ship to kite, and struggle with Sub 30K range. Either way both are sub optimal and I feel this is a horrible change to a great ship. Please have a re-look at what the fitting ability is on this ship would be the bare minimum that would need to be addressed.

Vexor navy issue: I hate drones, any drones that are not light / medium are for the most part useless when it comes to apply damage to a target that is not hard tackled. The vexor is relegated to a pure brawl play type, which is fine- however it is a bit one dimensional. (Don't even get me started with sniping and sentries)

SFI: Kind of sad to see that you are keeping the ship for the most part unchanged. SFI has no projection, and no damage. While it has amazing tracking and is great at being hard tackle, it really doesn't serve any more of a role than that. If CCP is fine with that, than so be it- but i was hoping for more.

My 2 isk
Michael Harari
Genos Occidere
HYDRA RELOADED
#634 - 2013-04-28 07:05:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Michael Harari
The fleet scythe could really use a 5th launcher hardpoint. With -50% cycle time on guns, it has 8 effective guns, but with 50% damage bonus on missiles, only 6 effective launchers. 5 launchers would give it 7.5 effective launchers, which is a lot more reasonable.

Edit: The osprey navy also has this problem - it is out damaged by a t1 caracal.
Akturous
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#635 - 2013-04-28 08:12:29 UTC
Willy Eckerslike wrote:
I like the Scythe FI. Always have done. However, with it's split weapons system it has always been a juggling act to get the best out of it with tight fitting constraints and in the end I always ended up flying it as a big destroyer rather than a light cruiser.

Now I see the upcoming changes and I am now hopeful that I can fit it and fly it in a more suitable 'cruiser style', but the split weapon system still worries me. Yes, I can fit it with guns and a utility high, or I could fit it with missiles/HAMs and a utility high but in either configuration it only gets a single weapon bonus compared to all the other faction cruisers. I could fit split weapons, but each system still only gets a single bonus.

I am happy with the new slot layout for the ship, giving more options on fitting - shield tank and damage mods or armour tank and utility mids. Nice.

What I would propose as a 'fix' for the split weapon system is as suggested earlier in the thread - do the right thing and make it like the new 'Phoon. Make it a fast missile boat and retain the flight of light drones (having 50m3 of drones might be a bit overkill), drop the projectile bonus and give it a second missile bonus such as missile speed.

Minmatar already have one autocannon fitted navy cruiser in the Stabber, so it would make sense to give them a different platform to fight from.


You retards do understand that it's 10%/lvl for both missiles and guns right?

So you're actually getting 4 bonuses. This is what should have happened to the phoon.

If you can't understand this, jump off a bridge (the jump kind).

Vote Item Heck One for CSM8
Anika Ataru
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#636 - 2013-04-28 09:45:25 UTC
NVex with two unbonused turrets.. Is it kind of bad joke or something? Can you at least solve it in similar way like with Dominix, by removing turret bonus (I don't like that, but if you insist..), whilst keeping turrets? Just make it more than two, two turrets without bonus are ridiculous.
It's like crippled Ishtar (I'm actually really worried about your plans with Ishtar now). Decent ship for PvE I guess, but I would rather keep my five goddamn turrets (even unbonused ones), instead of getting one stupid heavy drone. Those secondary drone bonuses, whilst marginally useful, aren't really worth it either.

Weird, after "Dominix without bonus, but still with turrets" rage, I would expect this thread to be upside down because of NVex without both, but so far, I see like three people complaining about it. I'm refusing to believe, that people have no use for those turrets, or NVex itself :(
Willy Eckerslike
Wealthy Tax Fugitives
The Curatores Veritatis Auxiliary
#637 - 2013-04-28 10:42:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Willy Eckerslike
Akturous wrote:
You retards do understand that it's 10%/lvl for both missiles and guns right?

So you're actually getting 4 bonuses. This is what should have happened to the phoon.

If you can't understand this, jump off a bridge (the jump kind).


The Scythe FI gets two bonusses (bonii, whatever). Count them. One. Two. That's right, two bonusses. However, they each only apply to one weapon system. So fit a single weapon of choice and that weapon system gets ONE bonus. Count it. One. That's right. One bonus.

Fit two different weapon systems in a split formation and each system gets one bonus. Count it. One. That's right. One bonus.

Now look at all the other ships. They get two bonusses for their weapon system.. You fit that weapon system and you get two bonusses. Count them. One. Two. That's right. Two bonusses.

Who did you say was the ******? Ignorance is bliss.

The projectile bonus does not apply to missile systems and the missile damage bonus does not apply to projectiles.

Get rid of the split weapon system and let us have two bonusses for a single weapon, like all the others. Split weapons are old hat.

I thank you.

Edit: Apparently re-tard is a naughty word
Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc.
Khimi Harar
#638 - 2013-04-28 11:48:03 UTC
Willy Eckerslike wrote:
...The Scythe FI...

Amazing, it is hardly rocket science yet you still manage to muck it up. Impressive!

Each bonus is equal to two bonuses .. +5%/+5% .. not that hard to understand. Using a single weapon system double bonus as you demand could increase dps if the second was RoF based, but the ship would have to be competitive with similar platforms (guns or missiles) for it to ever be used.

The proposed change actually provide you with more, yes you read that right MOAR!, dps than a single weapon w. 2 bonuses can achieve as you essentially get a full double bonus for a weapon you choose to insert in the utility slot.

The 10%/10% solution combined with the more than awesome slot layout provides you with the single most customizable platform in existence .. it is the most Minmatar hull of all, the enemy will never know what to expect giving you a massive advantage in combat.

But if having a Caracal that can be refitted to function as a Rupture on a whim does not suit you fancy, you could just ignore it and buy those two hulls instead and enjoy twice the hauling to get them set up.

If anything, the twin double bonus with even/near-even slot distribution solution should be applied to more hulls; Cyclone, Typhoon, Rifter/Slasher (why are those two so similar?) as it speaks directly to what Minmatar is all about .. versatility.
Michael Harari
Genos Occidere
HYDRA RELOADED
#639 - 2013-04-28 12:20:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Michael Harari
Akturous wrote:


You retards do understand that it's 10%/lvl for both missiles and guns right?

So you're actually getting 4 bonuses. This is what should have happened to the phoon.

If you can't understand this, jump off a bridge (the jump kind).


You understand that "number of bonuses" is completely arbitrary and an entirely stupid thing to care about?

Its like, you could take the vagas speed bonus, include it in the hull and "OMG IT HAS LESS BONUSES THAN OTHER HACS IT NEEDS BUFF"

Also the entire reason it has "4 bonuses" is that bonuses to two weapon systems cant really be used at the same time. Its like saying the hookbill gets a kinetic damage bonus, then THREE MORE DAMAGE BONUSES FOR EVERY OTHER DAMAGE TYPE OMG SO MANY BONUSES
Willy Eckerslike
Wealthy Tax Fugitives
The Curatores Veritatis Auxiliary
#640 - 2013-04-28 14:43:17 UTC
Veshta Yoshida wrote:
Stuff


I see what you are getting at with the double bonus idea. 10% damage does come across as a lot compared to other ship bonusses. However, I refer you to a couple of other ships in the lineup:

Omen NI - 4 Turrets. 10% Damage bonus and a 10% Optimal bonus.

Osprey NI - 4 Launchers. 10% Damage bonus and a 10% Missile velocity bonus. (ok 5% dmg bonus on non-kinetic, but you get the idea)

compared to what I suggested:

Scythe FI - 4 Launchers. 10% Damage bonus plus some other missile bonus. RoF would be too much to ask for. Missile flight duration, explosion velocity. something.

TBH, I would rather have a reduced dmg bonus (7.5% maybe) to go with some form of damage application bonus. I would just like to see the end of the split weapon system.

But if nothing else I will gladly take what is offered. The new ship is a nice step up from what it used to be.