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[Odyssey] Faction Navy Cruisers

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Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#461 - 2013-04-03 23:38:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Garviel Tarrant
Soon Shin wrote:

32km range with Scorch is far more than enough on the Navy Omen, using beams on it is a joke.


Yo, I'd like to introduce you to the dual td Caracal, have fun.

If you could fit beams to the nomen with reasonable fitting left and reasonable cap it would be far far better than using scorch.


(I'd also like to suggest that this is a hint that scorch needs to be nerfed >_>)

BYDI recruitment closed-ish

Pelea Ming
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#462 - 2013-04-03 23:57:47 UTC
Garviel Tarrant wrote:
Soon Shin wrote:

32km range with Scorch is far more than enough on the Navy Omen, using beams on it is a joke.


Yo, I'd like to introduce you to the dual td Caracal, have fun.

If you could fit beams to the nomen with reasonable fitting left and reasonable cap it would be far far better than using scorch.

I agree, the fitting and cap use on beams makes the proposed NOmen the utmost runt of the litter.
Major Killz
inglorious bastards.
#463 - 2013-04-04 00:17:00 UTC
Scorch should be hit with a bat.

Small Turret:
- Small Facoused Pulse 10
- Dual Light Pulse 9
- Gatling Pulse 8

Medium Turret:
- Heavy Pulse 20,000 optimal
- Foused Medium Pulse18,000 optimal

Large Turret:
- Mega Pulse 40,000m optimal
- Dual Heavy Pulse 36,000m optimal


In other news. There is not much difference in turret damage between the Omen Navy Issue and tech1 Omen. The shield Navy Omen will have much effective hit-points as 2 tech 1 Omen and do 4 - 7% less damage. They basically both do the same damage. I have no idea what some of you are on about.

1 does 400 d per second with imperial multi and the other does 450 d per second with imperial multi. 1 does 320 d per second with scorch and the other does 360 with scorch.

WITH REGARD TO THE VEXOR NAVY ISSUES...

Pure drone ships with out a secondary weapon system are lame solo unless they have ewar (see Curse, Arbitrator). Otherwise it is hella good to have when you have to drop and pull your damage. In fleets it is less of an issue but other things can come into play there too.

WITH REGARD TO Z SCYTHE CUTTING BOARD

HOw will the turret version be better than the missile version? Put HAM on that cheese and kite with javs or go close range with tech 2 damage ammo. How the F*ck does the autocannon version ever outdamage ham with CHEESE?


- killz

[u]Ich bin ein Pirat ！[/u]
Pelea Ming
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#464 - 2013-04-04 00:57:40 UTC
Major Killz wrote:
Scorch should be hit with a bat.

Small Turret:
- Small Facoused Pulse 10
- Dual Light Pulse 9
- Gatling Pulse 8

Medium Turret:
- Heavy Pulse 20,000 optimal
- Foused Medium Pulse18,000 optimal

Large Turret:
- Mega Pulse 40,000m optimal
- Dual Heavy Pulse 36,000m optimal


In other news. There is not much difference in turret damage between the Omen Navy Issue and tech1 Omen. The shield Navy Omen will have much effective hit-points as 2 tech 1 Omen and do 4 - 7% less damage. They basically both do the same damage. I have no idea what some of you are on about.

1 does 400 d per second with imperial multi and the other does 450 d per second with imperial multi. 1 does 320 d per second with scorch and the other does 360 with scorch.

- killz

That is the point. Navy should be better then the 'nilla T1.
Jon Marburg
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#465 - 2013-04-04 03:47:28 UTC
Ranger 1 wrote:

Quote:
I thought Navy was suppose to be an improvement on the primary role of the T1 hull


I think people need to get this out of their heads, there will be a lot less confusion that way. Smile

Ships of the same general class that are simply better versions obsolete their counter parts, and they are wisely trying to avoid that.


The idea of Navy being an improvement on T1 was based on the information they provided at fanfest last year. If T1 was level 1, navy was 1.5, and pirate was 2. T2 is suppose to be gains in some areas at a cost to other areas. A T2 hull in the same specialized role as the T1 was meant to be somewhere between 1.5 and 2.

Faction cruisers are in no way counterparts to their T1 hulls. They are not and should not be equal. You spend the extra isk for navy to get a generally better version of the basic T1 hull, the extra isk for pirate for a better ship with unique abilities, and the extra isk for T2 for a better more specialized ship. If you want to relate it to our modern military, T1 are the new recruits, Navy are experienced veterans, T2 are the medics and designated marksmen, and Pirate are special forces.
Deerin
East Trading Co Ltd
#466 - 2013-04-04 06:19:48 UTC
Major Killz wrote:

HOw will the turret version be better than the missile version? Put HAM on that cheese and kite with javs or go close range with tech 2 damage ammo. How the F*ck does the autocannon version ever outdamage ham with CHEESE?


Upclose, AC version does around 20% more dps than HAM with cheese version. Though HAM has the advantage you mentioned before: Can put javs on and get to kiting range.

I wonder when these ships will go to test server.
Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc.
Khimi Harar
#467 - 2013-04-04 07:45:28 UTC
Jon Marburg wrote:
...The idea of Navy being an improvement...

And that is why I don't get the proposed Nomen .. T1 (and current Nomen) does brawling and kiting both, T2 (Zealot) also does both but with a kiting/range focus while new Navy will do kiting only? How does that compute?
The only way I can see the Nomen brawl is to abuse to broken EC-XX drones; not enough tracking, tank or damage for anything other than "stay the **** away and hope you can whittle them down before they escape/light a cyno".

Makes me wonder what they have in store for the Zealot when they get to T2 cruisers .. only options they'll have is to add tracking to make it an even better kiter (never going to happen, OP as hell) or go the drony brawler w. tracing but no range route *sigh* which is all the rage when it comes to 'rebalancing' Amarr apparently.

I quite simply do not "get it" (the reasoning behind proposed changes that is).
Templar Dane
Amarrian Vengeance
Ragequit Cancel Sub
#468 - 2013-04-04 13:38:16 UTC
Pinky Feldman wrote:
Flyinghotpocket wrote:
Pinky Feldman wrote:
Templar Dane wrote:
Liang Nuren wrote:
What's that? You can't find medium laser brawling ships?
- Maller (Brawler)
- NAugoror (Brawler)
- Harbinger (Brawler)
- Absolution (Brawler)
- Devoter (Brawler)
- Phantasm (Brawler [or at least, it's damn sure not a kiter])
- Ashimmu (Brawler)
- Omen (Kiter)
- NOmen (Good Kiter)
- Zealot (Good Kiter)

-Liang



That's really odd, because those are all shoot-you-at-range ships that are out damaged/out-tracked by every other turret boat in scram/medium neut range.

Lasers are an elegant weapon from a more civilized[non-stacking-penalty] age. No reason to trade paint if you're going to fall behind there.

'Course, the maller is a slight exception because of its relatively god-tier buffer/fitting. Naug comes out being a maller that has utility highs[which the vanilla omen/maller lost] at the cost of having incoming/local reps mean less.

And really, how many X/3/7 cruisers are needed?

Oh, and don't bring up those steaming pile pirate ships. Hell, the ashimmu fails hard because of being practically forced to brawl.


No, the Naug comes out as a Maller with Heavy Pulse lasers, utility highs, and a beautiful navy paint job. Also, due to the fantastic Amarr T1 armor resist spread you can get comparable resists.


No, thats exactly what templar said


My original post was meant to come across slightly different, but then when I tried posting it reverted to an old draft and I didn't realize it had been lost. But no, thats not what he says at all. All he says is that the Naug is a Maller with utility highs at the cost of less resist, when in reality it's so much more than that. In fact, with 7 lows you can fit a similar tank to a Maller in terms of resists and honestly I find that the utility highs are the least exciting things about it in terms of what its able to do now.


If you fit the same number of heat sinks on the maller and the navy aug[which is a dumb idea] you come out with 34 more dps.

And while an armor amount bonus is fitting, it's not strictly better than a resist bonus. A resist bonus is better for local/remote reps and is still pretty good for buffer. The real reason to fly a Naug over a maller IS the utility highs.

I did not at any point complain about the Naug. I will take those utility highs and make sweet sweet love to them.
Pelea Ming
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#469 - 2013-04-04 13:48:43 UTC
Jon Marburg wrote:


The idea of Navy being an improvement on T1 was based on the information they provided at fanfest last year. If T1 was level 1, navy was 1.5, and pirate was 2. T2 is suppose to be gains in some areas at a cost to other areas. A T2 hull in the same specialized role as the T1 was meant to be somewhere between 1.5 and 2.

Faction cruisers are in no way counterparts to their T1 hulls. They are not and should not be equal. You spend the extra isk for navy to get a generally better version of the basic T1 hull, the extra isk for pirate for a better ship with unique abilities, and the extra isk for T2 for a better more specialized ship. If you want to relate it to our modern military, T1 are the new recruits, Navy are experienced veterans, T2 are the medics and designated marksmen, and Pirate are special forces.

Indeed, this just exemplifies my point, the NOmen should not be losing out to the Omen, especially in DPS.
Templar Dane
Amarrian Vengeance
Ragequit Cancel Sub
#470 - 2013-04-04 14:34:22 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
Well, he also said that if he didn't have his X/4/X damage bonus + tracking bonus cruiser then I couldn't have my optimal bonus kiter. He claimed it was something about Amarr not having any brawling cruisers despite having nothing BUT brawling cruisers. I think that's mostly because he hates kiting though.

-Liang


I prefer to man up. And since I'm going on god knows how many years of limiting myself to amarr [and recently amarr pirate ships] on this character, and this character being perhaps my favorite.....

I have a pretty damn unique [bar PIE vets] perspective on amarr ships. I know them inside out. I know what they can do, and what they can't do.

In scram range, amarr is pretty meh.

You talk brawling cruiser, lets talk flabber. Now that, is a brawling cruiser. That ship is fast enough to catch you, has everything it needs to kill you and survive while doing it. You know you're in a bad spot when you have one of these in scram range.

Why is that?

Well, what would happen if you took away a mid and gave it another low? It would be a crappy ship and nobody would use it. It's mission is to catch you, put it's full tackle on you, activate it's afterburner and then come out on top in applied damage, EFT be damned. It does this very well and, yes, I am jelly.

The proposed nomen wants to kill you at range. With just it's guns, it would take a bit over 3 minutes [1600 rolled tungsten, damage control, two EANMs and three trimarks] to kill a navy vexor if you never missed.

Throw two drone damage mods on that navy vexor and with garde II's it'll have damn near double the dps [drones vs guns, 664 vs 346] with more reach and the option of even more reach at the cost of dps. Oh sure sure, the drones can be destroyed and you can't count on them all the time, but that's a pretty easy trade-off for nearly double the damage.

And for the record, you are putting words in my mouth. I never said anything about a tracking bonus, or that it shouldn't be a kiter.

What I said was that a 4th mid would give it flexibility. Alluding to the fact that the amarr lineup has no flexibility and that a 4th mid could give it a reason to be flown over another option.
sten mattson
Red Sky Morning
The Amarr Militia.
#471 - 2013-04-04 14:55:01 UTC  |  Edited by: sten mattson
numbers:

both ships have the maximum amount of turrets (focused medium pulses) fitted with imperial navy multifrequency, 2 heat sinks , and the biggest flight of gallente drones they can carry in their bay (5 hobgoblins for the old , 5 hammerheads for the new)

old nomen: with drones: 521 dps at 6,8k+3,8
without drones: 422 dps

new nomen: with drones: 421 dps at 10,2k+3,8
without drones: 263 dps

my method to find the numbers for the new nomen: create a EFT char with all V except for ammar cruiser , which is at 0, then multiply the dps given by turrets (without drones ofc) with 1,25

discussion:

what i find weird in the case of the nomen is the flat 25% reduction in damage with drones , but 60% reduction without. If they intended the ship to be a kiter , the damage is abysmal , even with close range ammo (and only slightly above 200 dps at 30k with scorch). I also find it weird that for a ship that is supposed to use lazors , has drones represent more than 40% of its potential damage at close range)
It is also not normal that a navy ship would be so ridiculously outgunned by its t1 counterpart.

the only good side of this change is the cap usage , that hasnt changed -despite the loss of the cap reduction bonus- and the range bonus, that doesnt help much at brawling range.

just to put it here: a -7,5% rof reduction per lvl equates to giving a 12% damage bonus per lvl. Giving the nomen only 5% dmg per lvl while taking away one turret is not enough, and boosting the drone bay does not enough to compensate for this loss of damage.

in order for the new nomen to match the old nomen in damage -drones included- the damage bonus needs to be close to 15% per lvl.


what can be done:

since i believe the idea of this change was to keep the cap usage the same but take away the capacitor usage bonus, i dont think it would be wise to add another turret but one way to do this would be to up the damage bonus to 10% per lvl , wich would mean only mean -33% turret damage reduction compared to the old nomen (only -10% with the drones).

EDIT: the numbers were without the damage rig, sorry
EDIT 2: i thought it said 5% per lvl , but it doesnt. now my only gripe with it , is the 33% turret damage reduction with with the new nomen. the damage at close range was already abysmal when you count in fixed damage types , and poor tracking, why nerf it further :(

IMMA FIRING MA LAZAR!!!
X Gallentius
Black Eagle1
#472 - 2013-04-04 15:03:11 UTC
Major Killz wrote:
Pure drone ships with out a secondary weapon system are lame solo unless they have ewar (see Curse, Arbitrator). Otherwise it is hella good to have when you have to drop and pull your damage. In fleets it is less of an issue but other things can come into play there too.
The drone speed bonus absolutely wrecks kiting ships. The two extra slots (for neuts) helps VNI as well (see your comment wr.t. Curse/Arbi). This ship's engagement envelope is very large.
X Gallentius
Black Eagle1
#473 - 2013-04-04 15:11:10 UTC  |  Edited by: X Gallentius
sten mattson wrote:
stuff

Old Navy Omen should be compared to New Navy Augeror.

New NOmen is supposed to be a kitey bastard. Try suggesting changes that help make it better at doing that such as cap bonus or increasing cap recharge rate so you don't have to use a cap booster.

Or, compare the New NOmen to the other fast faction cruisers and suggest changes (ENI, OspreyNI, ScytheFI) to get it in line with those ships.

Quote:
my method to find the numbers for the new nomen: create a EFT char with all V except for ammar cruiser , which is at 0, then multiply the dps given by turrets (without drones ofc) with 1,25
Shouldn't it be 1.5? (10%/level damage)
Deerin
East Trading Co Ltd
#474 - 2013-04-04 15:19:48 UTC
sten mattson wrote:
numbers:


Something is wrong with those calculations. Recheck them. Also is that FMP that you used? Aren't heavy pulses way to go for these?

263 dps without drones you only get with FMP's + INMF + rof rig + damage rig.

Also get that wig off your head!!!
sten mattson
Red Sky Morning
The Amarr Militia.
#475 - 2013-04-04 15:26:03 UTC  |  Edited by: sten mattson
yes those numbers were with FMP , which are the ones you fit when you want to brawl , due to pg restrictions and horrid tracking with heavy pulses. post edited

EDIT: the numbers were without the damage rig, so only 2 HSs

IMMA FIRING MA LAZAR!!!
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#476 - 2013-04-04 17:50:35 UTC
Major Killz wrote:
Scorch should be hit with a bat.

Small Turret:
- Small Facoused Pulse 10
- Dual Light Pulse 9
- Gatling Pulse 8

Medium Turret:
- Heavy Pulse 20,000 optimal
- Foused Medium Pulse18,000 optimal

Large Turret:
- Mega Pulse 40,000m optimal
- Dual Heavy Pulse 36,000m optimal


In other news. There is not much difference in turret damage between the Omen Navy Issue and tech1 Omen. The shield Navy Omen will have much effective hit-points as 2 tech 1 Omen and do 4 - 7% less damage. They basically both do the same damage. I have no idea what some of you are on about.

1 does 400 d per second with imperial multi and the other does 450 d per second with imperial multi. 1 does 320 d per second with scorch and the other does 360 with scorch.

WITH REGARD TO THE VEXOR NAVY ISSUES...

Pure drone ships with out a secondary weapon system are lame solo unless they have ewar (see Curse, Arbitrator). Otherwise it is hella good to have when you have to drop and pull your damage. In fleets it is less of an issue but other things can come into play there too.

WITH REGARD TO Z SCYTHE CUTTING BOARD

HOw will the turret version be better than the missile version? Put HAM on that cheese and kite with javs or go close range with tech 2 damage ammo. How the F*ck does the autocannon version ever outdamage ham with CHEESE?


- killz


Aff you cannot balance things using raw numbers alone. that is idiotic! Scorch is intended to fit the cobmat model of amarr ships taht are far less mobile. It does not matter how scorch compares to other ammo. It matters is how useful amarr ships with scorch fare comapred to minmatar ships and to gallente ships etc....


STOP comparing only the tips of the icebergs and making claims on the freaking mass of the whole underwater part!

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#477 - 2013-04-04 18:00:36 UTC
Kagura Nikon wrote:
Major Killz wrote:
Scorch should be hit with a bat.

Small Turret:
- Small Facoused Pulse 10
- Dual Light Pulse 9
- Gatling Pulse 8

Medium Turret:
- Heavy Pulse 20,000 optimal
- Foused Medium Pulse18,000 optimal

Large Turret:
- Mega Pulse 40,000m optimal
- Dual Heavy Pulse 36,000m optimal


In other news. There is not much difference in turret damage between the Omen Navy Issue and tech1 Omen. The shield Navy Omen will have much effective hit-points as 2 tech 1 Omen and do 4 - 7% less damage. They basically both do the same damage. I have no idea what some of you are on about.

1 does 400 d per second with imperial multi and the other does 450 d per second with imperial multi. 1 does 320 d per second with scorch and the other does 360 with scorch.

WITH REGARD TO THE VEXOR NAVY ISSUES...

Pure drone ships with out a secondary weapon system are lame solo unless they have ewar (see Curse, Arbitrator). Otherwise it is hella good to have when you have to drop and pull your damage. In fleets it is less of an issue but other things can come into play there too.

WITH REGARD TO Z SCYTHE CUTTING BOARD

HOw will the turret version be better than the missile version? Put HAM on that cheese and kite with javs or go close range with tech 2 damage ammo. How the F*ck does the autocannon version ever outdamage ham with CHEESE?


- killz


Aff you cannot balance things using raw numbers alone. that is idiotic! Scorch is intended to fit the cobmat model of amarr ships taht are far less mobile. It does not matter how scorch compares to other ammo. It matters is how useful amarr ships with scorch fare comapred to minmatar ships and to gallente ships etc....


STOP comparing only the tips of the icebergs and making claims on the freaking mass of the whole underwater part!



Scorch is about 95% of the reason amarr ships are used at all.

Thats ****** up.

BYDI recruitment closed-ish

Deerin
East Trading Co Ltd
#478 - 2013-04-04 18:05:40 UTC
sten mattson wrote:
numbers:

my method to find the numbers for the new nomen: create a EFT char with all V except for ammar cruiser , which is at 0, then multiply the dps given by turrets (without drones ofc) with 1,25


Herein lies the error. %10 dmg per level = %50 => 1.5
Major Killz
inglorious bastards.
#479 - 2013-04-04 19:13:05 UTC
X Gallentius wrote:
Major Killz wrote:
Pure drone ships with out a secondary weapon system are lame solo unless they have ewar (see Curse, Arbitrator). Otherwise it is hella good to have when you have to drop and pull your damage. In fleets it is less of an issue but other things can come into play there too.
The drone speed bonus absolutely wrecks kiting ships. The two extra slots (for neuts) helps VNI as well (see your comment wr.t. Curse/Arbi). This ship's engagement envelope is very large.


I think the point I was making is that ship can explode drones. Since I have not seen you or any other Gallente milltia member or really good pilot use ANY GALLENTE ship in a way I do not. Well! That's not true (td kiting navy whoring comets). Still! I p sure tracking what not is meh.

In anycase.

You can prove me wrong either this month or next when my studies are done. You will have ample opportunity to stop my general murdering ways.


- killz

[u]Ich bin ein Pirat ！[/u]
Major Killz
inglorious bastards.
#480 - 2013-04-04 19:16:41 UTC
Kagura Nikon wrote:
Major Killz wrote:
Scorch should be hit with a bat.

Small Turret:
- Small Facoused Pulse 10
- Dual Light Pulse 9
- Gatling Pulse 8

Medium Turret:
- Heavy Pulse 20,000 optimal
- Foused Medium Pulse18,000 optimal

Large Turret:
- Mega Pulse 40,000m optimal
- Dual Heavy Pulse 36,000m optimal


In other news. There is not much difference in turret damage between the Omen Navy Issue and tech1 Omen. The shield Navy Omen will have much effective hit-points as 2 tech 1 Omen and do 4 - 7% less damage. They basically both do the same damage. I have no idea what some of you are on about.

1 does 400 d per second with imperial multi and the other does 450 d per second with imperial multi. 1 does 320 d per second with scorch and the other does 360 with scorch.

WITH REGARD TO THE VEXOR NAVY ISSUES...

Pure drone ships with out a secondary weapon system are lame solo unless they have ewar (see Curse, Arbitrator). Otherwise it is hella good to have when you have to drop and pull your damage. In fleets it is less of an issue but other things can come into play there too.

WITH REGARD TO Z SCYTHE CUTTING BOARD

HOw will the turret version be better than the missile version? Put HAM on that cheese and kite with javs or go close range with tech 2 damage ammo. How the F*ck does the autocannon version ever outdamage ham with CHEESE?


- killz


Aff you cannot balance things using raw numbers alone. that is idiotic! Scorch is intended to fit the cobmat model of amarr ships taht are far less mobile. It does not matter how scorch compares to other ammo. It matters is how useful amarr ships with scorch fare comapred to minmatar ships and to gallente ships etc....


STOP comparing only the tips of the icebergs and making claims on the freaking mass of the whole underwater part!


Why not? Because you say they or I cant? I suppose that's what I was suggesting. What of it? Maybe! CCP should nerf warp disruptors from 24k to 20,000m PERIOD. That should make things difficult.

Seems I DID IT AGAIN v0v


- killz

[u]Ich bin ein Pirat ！[/u]