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[Odyssey] Faction Navy Cruisers

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Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#341 - 2013-03-30 00:26:19 UTC
Soon Shin wrote:


Realistically you would not use medium drones. Otherwise frigs will speed tank them, kill them, then kill you by getting under the tracking of your guns.

Besides in terms of damage application and travel time,the dps difference of 5 medium drones over 5 light drones will no way compensate for the loss of 2 effective turret DPS.

The range bonus just turns the Navy Omen into a zealot, a much inferior zealot. The current NOMEN has a purpose compared to the zealot in close range brawling. Ranged combat is Zealot's specialty. I am a firm believer in making ships excel at different things rather than them stepping on the abilities of other ships.


I think that it's worth reading what the designers have said in the past. Fozzie and (I think?) Rise have both gone on the record (as players) as being confused why people with 75m^3 bandwidth would use only 50m^3 at any given time. I'm highly confident that the 50m^3 drone bay is incorrectly weighted for the NOmen. However, you can't just ignore the change. That's every bit as wrong as having an incorrect tuning variable.

I also like how you say that you like having ships excel at different things and then demand (yet another another another another another another another) medium laser brawling platform. Apparently all the other choices out there didn't do that already. Roll

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Major Killz
inglorious bastards.
#342 - 2013-03-30 00:28:38 UTC
Whether or not the Navy Omen will be popular or not is not important to me and other than esthetics. I dont particularly like the ship.

With that said.

The proposed shield-Omen Navy would have around 25,000 effective hit points and the shield-Omen has around 17,000 effective hit points.

The diffirence in turret damage between the 2 ships is around 50 - 60 damage per second. When drone damage is applied. The difference in damage is around 80 - 90 damage per second. That's with faction multifrequency by the way.

Comparatively. The difference in effective hitpoints seems substantial; more so than damage.

Anyway.

We wont really know whether or not the ship becomes popular untill the changes are live on TRANQ I suppose...


- killz

[u]Ich bin ein Pirat ！[/u]
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#343 - 2013-03-30 00:28:48 UTC
Garviel Tarrant wrote:
Edit 2: I'm not saying the Nomen won't be usable, It just doesn't seem to be a sensible choice over a normal omen to me.


The normal Omen is crippled in kiting situations. The new NOmen is able to make full use of warp disruptor range and has much better damage projection. People don't rave about the raw damage output of the Oracle - they rave about it's projection. It's damage isn't bad, but it's the projection that makes it win. The new NOmen has that projection. It's just a matter of tweaking the DPS.

I mean, don't get me wrong - I think the DPS feels low too. But I'm very confident that I will destroy everyone I come across with the NOmen - just like everyone does with the damage anemic LML Condor.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Major Killz
inglorious bastards.
#344 - 2013-03-30 00:32:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Major Killz
Garviel Tarrant wrote:
Also the comparison of the Nomen vs Cynabal based on the dps difference is ********. EDIT: For fucks sake, this ******* censorship of "offensive" words is going too ******* far.

Lets try that again "Also the comparison of the Nomen vs Cynabal based on the dps difference is mentally handicapped.

The Nomen isn't even in the same league, and even if its dps was higher it still wouldn't be.


Edit 2: I'm not saying the Nomen won't be usable, It just doesn't seem to be a sensible choice over a normal omen to me.



Nope.

There was just a straight comparison in damage projection and application with another ship that is known to skirmish well.

Nothing more, nothing less.

I would not use a shield version of this ship or Cynabal when I can fly a Talos unless I was bored. Clearly there are other considerations but that's semantics and I expect people not to be ret@rded. I dont want to go into speculative engagements and outcomes. I leave that to terribubble pilots to do.

EDIT: also I have flown the shield-Zealot solo. The effective hit points of that ship is p bad. Under 28,000m the current Navy Omen does alot better. The propose Omen Navy would preform much the same and by the way. Drones are a good thing, you know, damage drones or EC-300's.


- killz

[u]Ich bin ein Pirat ！[/u]
Johnson Oramara
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#345 - 2013-03-30 00:38:13 UTC
Soon Shin wrote:
Garviel Tarrant wrote:
Also the comparison of the Nomen vs Cynabal based on the dps difference is ********.

The Nomen isn't even in the same league, and even if its dps was higher it still wouldn't be.


Exactly, ask anyone which is the better ship the current Nomen or the Cynabal.

9/10 will say the Cynabal is better than the current Nomen.

After the changes are made 10/10 will say the Cynabal is better than the proposed Nomen.

No one will fly the Nomen, if you want a ranged attack cruiser go fly the Zealot does way more dps.



You are forgetting that Cynabal is definitely getting nerfed soon and after those changes maybe 5/10 will say cynabal is the better one -_-
Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#346 - 2013-03-30 01:21:16 UTC
Major Killz wrote:
Garviel Tarrant wrote:
Also the comparison of the Nomen vs Cynabal based on the dps difference is ********. EDIT: For fucks sake, this ******* censorship of "offensive" words is going too ******* far.

Lets try that again "Also the comparison of the Nomen vs Cynabal based on the dps difference is mentally handicapped.

The Nomen isn't even in the same league, and even if its dps was higher it still wouldn't be.


Edit 2: I'm not saying the Nomen won't be usable, It just doesn't seem to be a sensible choice over a normal omen to me.



Nope.

There was just a straight comparison in damage projection and application with another ship that is known to skirmish well.

Nothing more, nothing less.

I would not use a shield version of this ship or Cynabal when I can fly a Talos unless I was bored. Clearly there are other considerations but that's semantics and I expect people not to be ret@rded. I dont want to go into speculative engagements and outcomes. I leave that to terribubble pilots to do.

EDIT: also I have flown the shield-Zealot solo. The effective hit points of that ship is p bad. Under 28,000m the current Navy Omen does alot better. The propose Omen Navy would preform much the same and by the way. Drones are a good thing, you know, damage drones or EC-300's.


- killz



Ok i would just like to point out for the record that i do not in any way shape or form condone the use of shield Zealots as i view them as an abomination.



And to Liang.

All the Nomen needs for me to like it would be lowering the fitting requirements of medium beams.. I quite like the range/damage it gets with heavy beams ^^

But it can't really fit them if it wants to fit anything else.

BYDI recruitment closed-ish

Lloyd Roses
Artificial Memories
#347 - 2013-03-30 02:03:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Lloyd Roses
So there are two kind of people here....

A) those who kite and go wtfomg thanks for that NOmen, with cherries
B) But it only has three midslotz and ONLY 300dps in pointrange, linked or not, i don't know hot to pilot, gimme more turrets!!!111!

For B, take the new auguror and drop your crying. scrubs.

Btw, new shieldomen does around the same thing a shieldzealot does.... And got a 4secs align. CAN YOU KITE WITH THAT?

Shoul mention that I'm a scrub who flies his zealots with 2LSEs, fits a 100MN on a loki and spends 9/10 fights in a guardian :S though from the view of a guardian-pilot, nothing wrong with a faster zealot with hornets...
Goldensaver
Maraque Enterprises
Just let it happen
#348 - 2013-03-30 02:17:13 UTC
Garviel Tarrant wrote:

And to Liang.

All the Nomen needs for me to like it would be lowering the fitting requirements of medium beams.. I quite like the range/damage it gets with heavy beams ^^

But it can't really fit them if it wants to fit anything else.

I've noticed a lot of people talk about the fitting on the NOmen saying that it's too low. I don't really see the issues.

[Omen, Sniper]
Heat Sink II
Heat Sink II
Heat Sink II
Tracking Enhancer II
Tracking Enhancer II
Damage Control II

Experimental 10MN Microwarpdrive I
Warp Disruptor II
Small Capacitor Booster II, Navy Cap Booster 400

Heavy Beam Laser II, Imperial Navy Standard M
Heavy Beam Laser II, Imperial Navy Standard M
Heavy Beam Laser II, Imperial Navy Standard M
Heavy Beam Laser II, Imperial Navy Standard M
Heavy Beam Laser II, Imperial Navy Standard M

Medium Ancillary Current Router I
Medium Auxiliary Thrusters I
Medium Ancillary Current Router I



This is a fit on the current Omen, no implants, nothing else. Just what you see there, all level 5.

Current Omen, stolen shamelessly from the other T1 cruiser thread (the only change coming up is mass, so that aside, exact same thing):
CCP Fozzie wrote:

Omen:
Amarr Cruiser bonuses: -5% medium energy turret rate of fire and -10% medium energy turret capacitor use per level
Slot layout: 5 H, 3 M, 6 L, 5 turrets, 0 launchers
Fittings: 925 PWG, 315 CPU
Defense (shields / armor / hull): 1200 / 1700 / 1500
Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / cap per second): 1475 / 526 s / 2.8
Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 235 / 0.51 / 11050000 (-600,000) / 5.3s (-0.3)
Drones (bandwidth / bay): 40 / 40
Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 55km / 300 / 6
Sensor strength: 15 Radar
Signature radius: 115


The new NOmen:
CCP Fozzie wrote:

Omen Navy Issue: Turning this ship into a much more mobile ship with an optimal bonus, much like a giant Slicer.
Cruiser skill bonuses:
10% bonus to Medium Energy Turret damage
10% bonus to Medium Energy Turret optimal range
Slot layout: 5(-1) H, 3 M, 7 L, 4(-1) turrets
Fittings: 965 PWG, 335 CPU
Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 1800(-416) / 2250(-463) / 2250(-428)
Shield Recharge Time: 1250s(-500s)
Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / average cap per second): 1650(+25) / 520s(+55.9s) / 3.17(-0.3)
Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 265(+73) / 0.43(-0.11) / 10850000(-800,000) / 6.47s(-2.25)
Drones (bandwidth / bay): 50(+25) / 50(+25)
Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 57.5km(+12.5) / 320(+27) / 7(-1)
Sensor strength: 17(+1) Radar
Signature radius: 100(-12)
Cargo capacity: 400(+150)


The new NOmen gets 40 more PG and 20 more CPU, and gets one less gun. The fit I posted, minus one ACR is 1% over grid, 2% over CPU. With the 20 more CPU and 40 more grid alone it would fit. With 1 less gun it'll be doable with lower skills.

Just to go to a fitting heavy fit, I think you could go with a 4 HS, 2 TE, 1 DCU fit and still make it fit. I also think you could drop both ACRs as well. Medium beams will fit just fine. I won't say it's the best fit, I'm just showing that it'll be easy to fit Beams on the new NOmen. I doubt that you'll have any issues fitting a long range beamer at all.

Now if you want to cram on oversized plates, or give a solid tank, you'll have to make sacrifices. But that was always the intent when dealing with sniper ships. To fit a proper sniper you have to sacrifice tank. To fit an adequate tank, you have to sacrifice effectiveness.
Pelea Ming
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#349 - 2013-03-30 02:31:01 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
Pelea Ming wrote:
Liang, I appreciate that your attempting to play the role of devil's advocate here, but all your points so far about this specifically were addressed earlier in the thread and agreed upon to be counter to what your raising them as.


I'm not playing the devil's advocate here. You're campaigning for changes to the plan on a platform of ignorance. There may be things wrong with the popularity of long range platforms, but there's way more wrong with people's perceptions rather than a problem with Scorch, Barrage, or Null. In a very real way, people's (mis)perceptions will greatly magnify a perceived imbalance. And sometimes, that imbalance really doesn't exist (or is relatively small). There are countless times in the history of Eve that this has happened.

If you want to use beams for kiting, there's nothing stopping you. Do it. I've done it, and it works great.

-Liang

But that's the point, instead of giving it a range buff to be able to use scorch at range, it'd be better to instead give it a tracking speed buff to beams and use the weapon intended for ranged combat instead.
Pelea Ming
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#350 - 2013-03-30 02:36:56 UTC
Soon Shin wrote:
Liang Nuren wrote:
Soon Shin wrote:

The Navy Omen will be awful, it will do less damage than its tech 1 version. Use more capacitor as well. No one will fly this piece of crap when you have the tech 1 omen and the zealot.


If you are going to compare the old NOmen to the new NOmen, please make sure to do it correctly. Yes, absolutely the turret DPS has been lowered. However, the drone DPS has been raised and that's something that should be considered. It's also been made faster and will have an optimal range bonus.

I am slightly concerned by the low DPS myself, but I am very confident that if the DPS is actually too low in play testing then the designers will up the DPS (or otherwise address the problem).

-Liang


Realistically you would not use medium drones. Otherwise frigs will speed tank them, kill them, then kill you by getting under the tracking of your guns.

Besides in terms of damage application and travel time,the dps difference of 5 medium drones over 5 light drones will no way compensate for the loss of 2 effective turret DPS.

The range bonus just turns the Navy Omen into a zealot, a much inferior zealot. The current NOMEN has a purpose compared to the zealot in close range brawling. Ranged combat is Zealot's specialty. I am a firm believer in making ships excel at different things rather than them stepping on the abilities of other ships.

EDIT: also the NOMEN will field only one more medium drone than the tech 1 Omen. Wow such a big difference.

Completely agree with this assessment.
Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#351 - 2013-03-30 02:37:32 UTC
Goldensaver wrote:
Garviel Tarrant wrote:

And to Liang.

All the Nomen needs for me to like it would be lowering the fitting requirements of medium beams.. I quite like the range/damage it gets with heavy beams ^^

But it can't really fit them if it wants to fit anything else.

I've noticed a lot of people talk about the fitting on the NOmen saying that it's too low. I don't really see the issues.

[Omen, Sniper]
Heat Sink II
Heat Sink II
Heat Sink II
Tracking Enhancer II
Tracking Enhancer II
Damage Control II

Experimental 10MN Microwarpdrive I
Warp Disruptor II
Small Capacitor Booster II, Navy Cap Booster 400

Heavy Beam Laser II, Imperial Navy Standard M
Heavy Beam Laser II, Imperial Navy Standard M
Heavy Beam Laser II, Imperial Navy Standard M
Heavy Beam Laser II, Imperial Navy Standard M
Heavy Beam Laser II, Imperial Navy Standard M

Medium Ancillary Current Router I
Medium Auxiliary Thrusters I
Medium Ancillary Current Router I



This is a fit on the current Omen, no implants, nothing else. Just what you see there, all level 5.

Current Omen, stolen shamelessly from the other T1 cruiser thread (the only change coming up is mass, so that aside, exact same thing):
CCP Fozzie wrote:

Omen:
Amarr Cruiser bonuses: -5% medium energy turret rate of fire and -10% medium energy turret capacitor use per level
Slot layout: 5 H, 3 M, 6 L, 5 turrets, 0 launchers
Fittings: 925 PWG, 315 CPU
Defense (shields / armor / hull): 1200 / 1700 / 1500
Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / cap per second): 1475 / 526 s / 2.8
Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 235 / 0.51 / 11050000 (-600,000) / 5.3s (-0.3)
Drones (bandwidth / bay): 40 / 40
Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 55km / 300 / 6
Sensor strength: 15 Radar
Signature radius: 115


The new NOmen:
CCP Fozzie wrote:

Omen Navy Issue: Turning this ship into a much more mobile ship with an optimal bonus, much like a giant Slicer.
Cruiser skill bonuses:
10% bonus to Medium Energy Turret damage
10% bonus to Medium Energy Turret optimal range
Slot layout: 5(-1) H, 3 M, 7 L, 4(-1) turrets
Fittings: 965 PWG, 335 CPU
Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 1800(-416) / 2250(-463) / 2250(-428)
Shield Recharge Time: 1250s(-500s)
Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / average cap per second): 1650(+25) / 520s(+55.9s) / 3.17(-0.3)
Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 265(+73) / 0.43(-0.11) / 10850000(-800,000) / 6.47s(-2.25)
Drones (bandwidth / bay): 50(+25) / 50(+25)
Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 57.5km(+12.5) / 320(+27) / 7(-1)
Sensor strength: 17(+1) Radar
Signature radius: 100(-12)
Cargo capacity: 400(+150)


The new NOmen gets 40 more PG and 20 more CPU, and gets one less gun. The fit I posted, minus one ACR is 1% over grid, 2% over CPU. With the 20 more CPU and 40 more grid alone it would fit. With 1 less gun it'll be doable with lower skills.

Just to go to a fitting heavy fit, I think you could go with a 4 HS, 2 TE, 1 DCU fit and still make it fit. I also think you could drop both ACRs as well. Medium beams will fit just fine. I won't say it's the best fit, I'm just showing that it'll be easy to fit Beams on the new NOmen. I doubt that you'll have any issues fitting a long range beamer at all.

Now if you want to cram on oversized plates, or give a solid tank, you'll have to make sacrifices. But that was always the intent when dealing with sniper ships. To fit a proper sniper you have to sacrifice tank. To fit an adequate tank, you have to sacrifice effectiveness.


Yea i want to fit beams AND have more than 15k ehp....

And having cap would also be nice (It rather needs a medium cap booster to run beams)

BYDI recruitment closed-ish

Pelea Ming
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#352 - 2013-03-30 02:39:54 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
Soon Shin wrote:


Realistically you would not use medium drones. Otherwise frigs will speed tank them, kill them, then kill you by getting under the tracking of your guns.

Besides in terms of damage application and travel time,the dps difference of 5 medium drones over 5 light drones will no way compensate for the loss of 2 effective turret DPS.

The range bonus just turns the Navy Omen into a zealot, a much inferior zealot. The current NOMEN has a purpose compared to the zealot in close range brawling. Ranged combat is Zealot's specialty. I am a firm believer in making ships excel at different things rather than them stepping on the abilities of other ships.


I think that it's worth reading what the designers have said in the past. Fozzie and (I think?) Rise have both gone on the record (as players) as being confused why people with 75m^3 bandwidth would use only 50m^3 at any given time. I'm highly confident that the 50m^3 drone bay is incorrectly weighted for the NOmen. However, you can't just ignore the change. That's every bit as wrong as having an incorrect tuning variable.

I also like how you say that you like having ships excel at different things and then demand (yet another another another another another another another) medium laser brawling platform. Apparently all the other choices out there didn't do that already. Roll

-Liang

no, I'm not arguing for another brawling platform, I'm saying if you want it to be a ranged dps boat, then set it up with buffs that would make beams worth using with it. Even specify on the buffs that they are for beams, and not just energy turrets in general.
Pelea Ming
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#353 - 2013-03-30 02:44:51 UTC
Goldensaver wrote:
Garviel Tarrant wrote:

And to Liang.

All the Nomen needs for me to like it would be lowering the fitting requirements of medium beams.. I quite like the range/damage it gets with heavy beams ^^

But it can't really fit them if it wants to fit anything else.

I've noticed a lot of people talk about the fitting on the NOmen saying that it's too low. I don't really see the issues.

[Omen, Sniper]
Heat Sink II
Heat Sink II
Heat Sink II
Tracking Enhancer II
Tracking Enhancer II
Damage Control II

Experimental 10MN Microwarpdrive I
Warp Disruptor II
Small Capacitor Booster II, Navy Cap Booster 400

Heavy Beam Laser II, Imperial Navy Standard M
Heavy Beam Laser II, Imperial Navy Standard M
Heavy Beam Laser II, Imperial Navy Standard M
Heavy Beam Laser II, Imperial Navy Standard M
Heavy Beam Laser II, Imperial Navy Standard M

Medium Ancillary Current Router I
Medium Auxiliary Thrusters I
Medium Ancillary Current Router I



This is a fit on the current Omen, no implants, nothing else. Just what you see there, all level 5.

Current Omen, stolen shamelessly from the other T1 cruiser thread (the only change coming up is mass, so that aside, exact same thing):
CCP Fozzie wrote:

Omen:
Amarr Cruiser bonuses: -5% medium energy turret rate of fire and -10% medium energy turret capacitor use per level
Slot layout: 5 H, 3 M, 6 L, 5 turrets, 0 launchers
Fittings: 925 PWG, 315 CPU
Defense (shields / armor / hull): 1200 / 1700 / 1500
Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / cap per second): 1475 / 526 s / 2.8
Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 235 / 0.51 / 11050000 (-600,000) / 5.3s (-0.3)
Drones (bandwidth / bay): 40 / 40
Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 55km / 300 / 6
Sensor strength: 15 Radar
Signature radius: 115


The new NOmen:
CCP Fozzie wrote:

Omen Navy Issue: Turning this ship into a much more mobile ship with an optimal bonus, much like a giant Slicer.
Cruiser skill bonuses:
10% bonus to Medium Energy Turret damage
10% bonus to Medium Energy Turret optimal range
Slot layout: 5(-1) H, 3 M, 7 L, 4(-1) turrets
Fittings: 965 PWG, 335 CPU
Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 1800(-416) / 2250(-463) / 2250(-428)
Shield Recharge Time: 1250s(-500s)
Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / average cap per second): 1650(+25) / 520s(+55.9s) / 3.17(-0.3)
Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 265(+73) / 0.43(-0.11) / 10850000(-800,000) / 6.47s(-2.25)
Drones (bandwidth / bay): 50(+25) / 50(+25)
Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 57.5km(+12.5) / 320(+27) / 7(-1)
Sensor strength: 17(+1) Radar
Signature radius: 100(-12)
Cargo capacity: 400(+150)


The new NOmen gets 40 more PG and 20 more CPU, and gets one less gun. The fit I posted, minus one ACR is 1% over grid, 2% over CPU. With the 20 more CPU and 40 more grid alone it would fit. With 1 less gun it'll be doable with lower skills.

Just to go to a fitting heavy fit, I think you could go with a 4 HS, 2 TE, 1 DCU fit and still make it fit. I also think you could drop both ACRs as well. Medium beams will fit just fine. I won't say it's the best fit, I'm just showing that it'll be easy to fit Beams on the new NOmen. I doubt that you'll have any issues fitting a long range beamer at all.

Now if you want to cram on oversized plates, or give a solid tank, you'll have to make sacrifices. But that was always the intent when dealing with sniper ships. To fit a proper sniper you have to sacrifice tank. To fit an adequate tank, you have to sacrifice effectiveness.

The problem with this is that even with a cap booster, the beams will suck it dry even before someone manages to get a nuet on it, it needs some cap love to be a proper beam platform.
Goldensaver
Maraque Enterprises
Just let it happen
#354 - 2013-03-30 02:57:51 UTC
Garviel Tarrant wrote:

Yea i want to fit beams AND have more than 15k ehp....

And having cap would also be nice (It rather needs a medium cap booster to run beams)


Yeah, but that almost fits with 1 more gun and 20 less CPU and 40 less PG that the Omen gets. With 25 (20+electronics 5) + 27.8 (the CPU of a Heavy beam with max skills) = 52.8 more CPU and 50 (40+engineering 5) + 223.2 (the PG of a Heavy beam at max skills) = 273.2 more PG to spare, I think you can trade the small cap booster for a medium (10 more CPU and 160 more PG). So even after putting in a medium cap booster, it'll fit with one ACR. Then (I think) you can put on a second ACR and fit this:

New NOmen:

3x Heat sink
2x TE
1x DCU
1x 800mm Tungsten plates

10MW Experimental MWD
Medium Cap booster
Warp Disruptor

4x Heavy Beam Laser

2x ACR
1x *random rig choice*

You might have to meta the DCU or the disruptor, but it should all fit, I think. I'll have to actually do the math, but I think it should.

I'll post later with the math all done.



*edit*
Pelea Ming wrote:

The problem with this is that even with a cap booster, the beams will suck it dry even before someone manages to get a nuet on it, it needs some cap love to be a proper beam platform.


It's got pretty good cap with just the booster, and the trick when using beams that will get over 30km range with MF is to not get in range to be neuted. The cap should be adequate.
Goldensaver
Maraque Enterprises
Just let it happen
#355 - 2013-03-30 03:16:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Goldensaver
Goldensaver wrote:

I'll post later with the math all done.


Did the math.

3x heat sink II
2x tracking enhancer II
1x 800mm tungsten plate
1x DCUII

10MN Meta MWD
Warp Disruptor II
Medium Cap booster II

4x Heavy Beam Laser II

2x ACR
1x rig of choice

All level V, the total comes to 180 spare PG and 15 spare CPU, approx. Too lazy to run the numbers now, but that leaves enough space to spare to put on a T2 plate instead of meta 4.

You can sacrifice a TE to put on an ANP if you want more tank, but then you're losing range and tracking. You can drop a heat sink, but again, you lose damage that way. If you get a genolution set, I think you can remove an ACR and have 2 rigs of choice. Again, I did the math for the first bit, too lazy to do it with the Geno, so I'm not sure.

So yeah, not too difficult to fit a beam NOmen post patch with a medium cap booster... assuming you have good enough skills, and are willing to make sacrifices.

Edit: Tankier version*

3x heat sink II
1x tracking enhancer II
1x EANM II
1x 800mm plate II
1x DCUII

10MN Meta MWD
Warp Disruptor II
Medium Cap booster II

4x Heavy Beam Laser II

1x ACR
2x rig of choice

*Requires Geno set and 2% PG implant to fit, or a CPU implant and second ACR, or a second ACR and an ANP in place of EANM. Y'know, choices.
Mirei Jun
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#356 - 2013-03-30 06:02:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Mirei Jun
The Navy Vexor got a massive beat down from the nerf bat.

It is currently a true beast at 5 turrets and 4 heavy/medium drones. The speed and tracking bonuses to drones will not make up for the huge loss of DPS. This ship is able to deal decent damage at range but then becomes a major threat in optimal. After these changes it will simply deal decent damage at range. What gives this ship balance is its dismal PG. To get max DPS you have to sacrifice a lot.

You could give it MORE DRONES, and bring back the Guardian Vexor proper (This would be truly unique and fun!). Alternatively you could kick its turret slots back up, or give it a flat Hyrbid damage bonus.

This situation proves change is not good simply for it's own sake. Remember, "if it ain't broke don't fix it.".

If these initially proposed changes go through there will be no reason to fly it anymore.

MJ
Alyssa Haginen
Doomheim
#357 - 2013-03-30 06:03:34 UTC
Omen Navy Issue: "much like a giant Slicer"..love it..as long as it has the slicer's interceptor traits.


Osprey Navy Issue: Without some sort of fix a HAM fit is useless against frigs. What the hell happened to tracking computers for missiles. That was the good part of the missile re balance update for HAM's. Without it all heavy assault missile fit ships are lacking on damage to small targets. Even if they are webbed and the AB fit frigs can tank double webbed.


Exequror Navy Issue: Good ship

Scythe Fleet Issue: Most people will fly this projectile fit or heavy missile fit.

Augoror Navy Issue: Take off the useless 15m3 drone bay and include more power, cpu, or cap for more neuting potential.


Caracal Navy Issue: I think a HAM fit version of this might have a chance to kill a frig and should also prove just how crap the explosion radius is on HAMS in general.


Vexor Navy Issue: Very nice, +25m3 on the drone bay

Stabber Fleet Issue: No longer the go to navy cruiser for every role.
Colt Blackhawk
Doomheim
#358 - 2013-03-30 09:06:17 UTC
Ranger 1 wrote:
Jonas Sukarala wrote:
Colt Blackhawk wrote:
OMG.
Scythe fleet in comparison to Osprey navy has same dmg potential with missiles plus free choice of dmg type (em thermal exp kin) plus more drones plus a bonused turret plus more speed.
Yep. CCP hates caldari again.
Is there any reason to fly an Osprey Navy if you can have Sythe fleet? I don´t see one.


Me too i think the omission of any hybrid caldari navy ships is odd and should be rectified here there is no reason not to when you have 2 ships to pick from.


You know, it wouldn't hurt my feelings at all if the Osprey Navy Issue got the same split weapon treatment as the Scythe did, just with bonuses to Rails "and" missiles damage. It would require a complete rework though.


And even with turret bonus and turrets the nosprey would be still weaker than the scythe fleet, because it has only bonused kinetic missiles with 10% (scythe fleet can deal EVERY dmg type with 10% bunus), slower and only 3 drones (Scythe fleet has 5 drones).
The comparison scythe fleet--->nosprey lacks completely any balance. THIS nosprey is absolutely useless in comparison to scythe fleet.

[09:04:53] Ashira Twilight > Plant the f****** amarr flag and s*** on their smoking wrecks.
Pesadel0
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#359 - 2013-03-30 09:06:20 UTC
Quote:
Stabber Fleet Issue: Role stays the same, as this ship works very well. Overall the mass increase means a decrease in power but it will remain a very strong ship.
Cruiser skill bonuses:
5% bonus to Medium Projectile Turret firing speed
10% bonus to Medium Projectile Turret tracking speed
Slot layout: 5 H, 4 M, 6 L, 5 turrets, 3 launchers
Fittings: 950 PWG, 310(-2) CPU
Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 2250(+206) / 2700(-61) / 2250(-94)
Shield Recharge Time: 1250s
Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / average cap per second): 1275(+25) / 425s(-3.25) / 3(+0.08)
Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 250(+2) / 0.465(+0.02) / 10810000(+1,000,000) / 6.97s(+0.92)
Drones (bandwidth / bay): 40 / 40
Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 40km / 305 / 6
Sensor strength: 18(+2) Ladar
Signature radius: 100(+6)
Cargo capacity: 450(+75)


Could you please tell us what is the "supposed" role in the SFI because with 6 low slots and the ability to armor thanks decently it is a very good armor tanker and brawler , so why give it shield amount? and take armour? Further more why take it off CPU when the usually fits i have to put implants for cpu?
TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#360 - 2013-03-30 10:29:22 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:

10% bonus to Medium Projectile Turret rate of fire
10% bonus to Missile damage


Shouldn't these bonuses be equal? 50% ROF is a bit ridiculous, even more than these 50% damage bonuses I'm seeing thrown around these days (that combat BC nerf was so underwhelming). I'm thinking this ship should be 6 highs, 3/3 or 4/4 hardpoints, and maybe give it more sensible bonuses and increase the dronebay.
I don't really get the split weapons hate. Current typhoon is good at split weapons (compared to other tier 1 BS, obviously tier 3s are much better actual ships because they all have ridiculous fittings and hp). Make it like that, but I guess shield rather than armour if you want. Old merlin was pretty good too, in my opinion. A bunch of the gallente drone ships could be considered split weapons, and they'll be good once you fix drones.
If you ignore the full-****** 0 tank setups with 10 damage mods and a shield extender, they're pretty good in tank setups compared to other ships because they do more damage, but they can't use damage mods as efficiently because they benefit less. The versatility thing is pretty cool, but I don't think the eft plebs will ever see it.