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[Odyssey] T1 Cruiser Polish Pass

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Akturous
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#121 - 2013-04-28 08:15:58 UTC
T1 Logi needs to lose 50% range or 50% rep. The performance is so close to T2 it's an insult. T1 ships should not be so specialised.

Vote Item Heck One for CSM8
To mare
Advanced Technology
#122 - 2013-04-28 08:32:56 UTC
SpeedY G0nZaleZ wrote:
Nobody else is talking about this so I will.

The Maller should have missiles. The entire hull line seems to have it except for the Maller. Vengeance -> Maller -> Sac -> Legion

There is a huge gap in hams in the cruiser lineup.

That is all.


that should be the arbitrator since all the other amarr hull with launchers are also the drone bonused ones
Meldorn Vaash
State War Academy
Caldari State
#123 - 2013-05-03 00:35:15 UTC
Akturous wrote:
T1 Logi needs to lose 50% range or 50% rep. The performance is so close to T2 it's an insult. T1 ships should not be so specialised.


I think hold that thought until the T2 versions get their balance pass. Besides, the T1s are getting a small nerf this go around. If nothing else look at this as an opportunity to train some new players in the ways of logistics.
"Irony can be pretty ironic sometimes."
Hagika
Standard Corp 123
#124 - 2013-05-04 06:51:11 UTC
Mariner6 wrote:
Liang Nuren wrote:
I approve. I don't know how the TE changes will shake out with these guys in mind, but it might just be a wash because TEs nerf everyone equally.

-Liang


Not really, looks like they buffed the stabber's fall off to compensate for the TE nerf, leaving it in a very nice spot. Plus the full flight of drones.... It will be very nice now and quite the tackle killer.

And of course missile boats vs gun boat range comparison such as HAM caracal vs gun boat kite fit cruiser is way off now ......



It is Winmatar Online.
Theia Matova
Dominance Theory
#125 - 2013-05-11 20:59:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Theia Matova
@Fozzie, I have just flown Scythe and Osprey sisi and wrecked both in level V mission. Scythe could succesfully speed tank 25390 damage when osprey popped almost instantly with 6036 damage taken.

I believe max speed and sig radius are the cause. If we compare the T1 logistic sig and velocity we see that they are big differences both sig and speed. Scythe has smallest sig and highest speed which gives it best survivability.

Here are the stats:
CCP Fozzie wrote:

Augoror:
Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 210 / 0.68 / 10730000 / 6.8 s
Signature radius: 90

Osprey:
Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 200 / 0.59 / 11230000 / 6.2 s
Signature radius: 95

Exequror:
Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 240 / 0.61 / 11020000 / 6.3 s
Signature radius: 80

Scythe:
Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 250 / 0.6 / 11110000 / 6.2 s
Signature radius: 75

As usual, feedback is desired and we'll be getting them onto the test servers for public testing as soon as possible.


It feels bit weird to me that cruisers should have so big differences both in speed and signature radius. Since both are important for cruiser survival these values should be more close together. Or Minmatar gets another hull in small ships that is superior in comparison to others.

If Scythe has best speed it should have bigger signature to even out evasion from speed.
Jeanne-Luise Argenau
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#126 - 2013-05-12 07:21:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Jeanne-Luise Argenau
Dear Fozzi,

support cruiser need to have another look. One Reason is what Thei Matova says. The other one is that i can fit an Osprey
either with 3 large shield transfers and 2 med energy transfers or 3 med shield transfers and 2 large energy transfers and a reasonable tank. This makes the osprey a far superior ship compared to the armor class equivalent Augoror in my opinion. I also have seen Scythe fits with large shield transfers (in the net so could be trolls) but never tried to fit them (even in eft), least of that flown them.

Even if its only the osprey which is favoured in that way it would give shield tanking the edge.

Thx
kraiklyn Asatru
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#127 - 2013-05-12 15:21:15 UTC
Theia Matova wrote:
@Fozzie, I have just flown Scythe and Osprey sisi and wrecked both in level V mission. Scythe could succesfully speed tank 25390 damage when osprey popped almost instantly with 6036 damage taken.

I believe max speed and sig radius are the cause. If we compare the T1 logistic sig and velocity we see that they are big differences both sig and speed. Scythe has smallest sig and highest speed which gives it best survivability.


It feels bit weird to me that cruisers should have so big differences both in speed and signature radius. Since both are important for cruiser survival these values should be more close together. Or Minmatar gets another hull in small ships that is superior in comparison to others.

If Scythe has best speed it should have bigger signature to even out evasion from speed.


Lvl V missions arent exactly a suitable method of determining which is best. Osprey is meant to function in support with other ospreys and allows for capchaining like a basilisk. Scythe is meant to function as a scimi. For all i know you probably shitfitted the ships and tested them out sideof their usual role.
Theia Matova
Dominance Theory
#128 - 2013-05-12 17:30:22 UTC
kraiklyn Asatru wrote:
Lvl V missions arent exactly a suitable method of determining which is best. Osprey is meant to function in support with other ospreys and allows for capchaining like a basilisk. Scythe is meant to function as a scimi. For all i know you probably shitfitted the ships and tested them out sideof their usual role.


Agreed but they give idea how effective the speed tank can be. Because of the speed I would say that scythe is superior for PVP roams. Its also very much easier to fit than Osprey in my opinion. Also the fact that part of the repair is externalized to drones give it some flexibility against ewar where in comparison osprey more vulnerable to cap neut, ecm and dampening.

Due to speed and sig radius being big part of cruiser survival attributes there should not be this much different in these logistics. It makes cap intensive fleets more vulnerable as they already are.

Someone might disagree but I also find it weird that osprey has 5 highs and scythe 3. Osprey would be better off with 4 instead of 5. Giving it more speed or reduce its sig or both.

I am just very bothered that Winmatars get one more superior hull. Osprey can compete Scythe with raw rep but the fact is its more vulnerable to ewar, more vulnerable to big guns, since its also cap trans fer boat its more difficult to fly all together because you do not need only rep but also cap injected. Scythe is fast, relatively less vulnerable to ewar, single role for shield boost.

In anyway if the hulls stay as they are. I will most likely fly only minmatar logistic hulls because Wimatars are anyway OP.
Theia Matova
Dominance Theory
#129 - 2013-05-12 17:33:37 UTC
Problem is also that CCP is pushing too much stuff to Odyssey. It takes time to test balances. There is simply too much coming to Odyssey. Sorry to say CCP but the battleship changed could waited a bit so you had better thought on them. There are lot of more stuff that is coming that needs eyes too.
kraiklyn Asatru
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#130 - 2013-05-12 18:03:36 UTC  |  Edited by: kraiklyn Asatru
The fact that your main agrument seems to be winmatar op, I am tempted to just disregard your opinion regardless of any relevance or facts. Please tell me which minmatar hulls are superior I'd like to know, since you know I fly them now and then...


Edit: After seeing your other thread I am convinced disregarding you is the best option. I woul recommend Fozzie to do the same.
Theia Matova
Dominance Theory
#131 - 2013-05-12 19:19:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Theia Matova
kraiklyn Asatru wrote:
The fact that your main agrument seems to be winmatar op, I am tempted to just disregard your opinion regardless of any relevance or facts. Please tell me which minmatar hulls are superior I'd like to know, since you know I fly them now and then...


Edit: After seeing your other thread I am convinced disregarding you is the best option. I woul recommend Fozzie to do the same.


Its clear that such comment comes to one that even presents Minmatar icon and colors in the profile picture. If you fly minmatar of course you do not want the any balance acts. Because then other races had actually fair game against smallar hulls of Minmatar race.

Cane and Rifter have been one the most successful ships in EVEs PVP history. Thanks the to balance act I believe the gap is now better but if Minmatar hulls have such clear speed and sig radius difference to other races its not worth flying smaller hulls from other races since Minmatar can armor or shield tank, since speed tank is big deal to frigs and cruisers they are superior in that. So basically can as well fly just Winny because they have most survivalibility and versatile damage. Plus since gun system does not take cap all of the cap is free for afterburner and tank.. Also adds to endurance of Minmatar hulls.

But anyway I know balancing is difficult subject because it always harms someone. So I do understand that some people may not understand this.
Kobea Thris
Inquisition FiS Division
#132 - 2013-05-14 18:23:11 UTC
I know this probably won't be a popular idea, but it's been bugging me. Caldari and Amarr get their 4% resist on at least one ship from Frigates up through battleships. Gallente and Minmatar seem to be missing their "tanking" bonus at the cruiser level. I know these bonuses aren't as popular as the resist bonus is, but honestly, I would rather active tank a cruiser than a battlecruiser any day. They are smaller, and they are cheaper. Would it be possible to revisit this?

.

CCP Fozzie
C C P
C C P Alliance
#133 - 2013-05-14 19:15:26 UTC
Kobea Thris wrote:
I know this probably won't be a popular idea, but it's been bugging me. Caldari and Amarr get their 4% resist on at least one ship from Frigates up through battleships. Gallente and Minmatar seem to be missing their "tanking" bonus at the cruiser level. I know these bonuses aren't as popular as the resist bonus is, but honestly, I would rather active tank a cruiser than a battlecruiser any day. They are smaller, and they are cheaper. Would it be possible to revisit this?


It's very possible that we might revisit it, but if we do it will likely be through new ships rather than changes to existing ships and it's not on our short term roadmap.

Game Designer | Team Five-0

Twitter: @CCP_Fozzie
Twitch chat: ccp_fozzie
MeBiatch
GRR GOONS
#134 - 2013-05-14 19:26:27 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Kobea Thris wrote:
I know this probably won't be a popular idea, but it's been bugging me. Caldari and Amarr get their 4% resist on at least one ship from Frigates up through battleships. Gallente and Minmatar seem to be missing their "tanking" bonus at the cruiser level. I know these bonuses aren't as popular as the resist bonus is, but honestly, I would rather active tank a cruiser than a battlecruiser any day. They are smaller, and they are cheaper. Would it be possible to revisit this?


It's very possible that we might revisit it, but if we do it will likely be through new ships rather than changes to existing ships and it's not on our short term roadmap.


dont forget there are two missing pirate factions...

one ammarr/gal

one min/caldari...

just saying...

There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... CCP Goliath wrote:

Ugh ti-di pooping makes me sad.
Callic Veratar
#135 - 2013-05-14 19:57:15 UTC
MeBiatch wrote:
dont forget there are two missing pirate factions...

one ammarr/gal

one min/caldari...

just saying...


Only two?

Sansha is Amarr/Cal
Blood is Amarr/Min
Gur is Cal/Gal
Serp is Gal/Min
Angel is Min/Gal

Serpentis and Angels show primary/secondary is important. My count is we're missing 7:

Amarr/Gal - EoM
Cal/Amarr - ??
Cal/Min - ??
Gal/Amarr - ??
Gal/Cal - Syndicate
Min/Amarr - Ammatar
Min/Cal - ??
Kobea Thris
Inquisition FiS Division
#136 - 2013-05-14 20:59:00 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Kobea Thris wrote:
I know this probably won't be a popular idea, but it's been bugging me. Caldari and Amarr get their 4% resist on at least one ship from Frigates up through battleships. Gallente and Minmatar seem to be missing their "tanking" bonus at the cruiser level. I know these bonuses aren't as popular as the resist bonus is, but honestly, I would rather active tank a cruiser than a battlecruiser any day. They are smaller, and they are cheaper. Would it be possible to revisit this?


It's very possible that we might revisit it, but if we do it will likely be through new ships rather than changes to existing ships and it's not on our short term roadmap.


New ships are always a bonus!

.

Jonas Sukarala
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#137 - 2013-05-14 21:16:19 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Kobea Thris wrote:
I know this probably won't be a popular idea, but it's been bugging me. Caldari and Amarr get their 4% resist on at least one ship from Frigates up through battleships. Gallente and Minmatar seem to be missing their "tanking" bonus at the cruiser level. I know these bonuses aren't as popular as the resist bonus is, but honestly, I would rather active tank a cruiser than a battlecruiser any day. They are smaller, and they are cheaper. Would it be possible to revisit this?


It's very possible that we might revisit it, but if we do it will likely be through new ships rather than changes to existing ships and it's not on our short term roadmap.


mm... mini brutix.... intriguing once you fix armour repping ofc :)

'Tech3 ships need to be put down, like a rabid dog drooling everywhere in the house, they are out of line' CCP Ytterbium Nerf missile range into place where is the TD missile change?  ..projectiles should use capacitor. ABC's should be T2 HABC and nerf web strength its still too high

Ix Method
Doomheim
#138 - 2013-05-16 00:31:26 UTC
Arbitrator with three launchers/turrets would be nice, bring it in line with the Prophecy and it's one utility high. Only a small thing but two launchers, a gun and a neut just seems needlessly obtuse.

Travelling at the speed of love.
Theia Matova
Dominance Theory
#139 - 2013-05-18 13:52:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Theia Matova
Callic Veratar wrote:
MeBiatch wrote:
dont forget there are two missing pirate factions...

one ammarr/gal

one min/caldari...

just saying...


Only two?

Sansha is Amarr/Cal
Blood is Amarr/Min
Gur is Cal/Gal
Serp is Gal/Min
Angel is Min/Gal

Serpentis and Angels show primary/secondary is important. My count is we're missing 7:

Amarr/Gal - EoM
Cal/Amarr - ??
Cal/Min - ??
Gal/Amarr - ??
Gal/Cal - Syndicate
Min/Amarr - Ammatar
Min/Cal - ??


In future it would be nice that the opposite factions of faction warfare would co-develop weapons / hulls. Rather than more pirate factions. Some of the existing pirate factions could perhaps develop new hulls / weapons that were not so clear to what faction they are.

So we could perhaps see active armor tanked projectile ship line and Active shield tanked drone ship line or something else interesting combos from Gallente and Minmatar co-development.

Caldari and Amarr could develop armor tanked missile weapon ship line and shield tanked laser weapon ship line.

Also currently faction ships to up to BS most parts anyway. It could be nice to see at least gallente/minmatar co-developed capital and caldari/amarr co-developed capital. This would be additional content that would bring more into EVE universe.
Gorgoth24
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#140 - 2013-05-25 22:12:25 UTC
For one, I am incredibly happy to see a polish pass that comes to the same conclusions that I do in game. The new balance team rocks!

However, I think that the scythe's lock range should be kept where it is as it should be able to use its full rep range without the use of additional modules.