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Heth responds to loss of Shiigeru and Ishukone contact with Gallente senate
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Gustav Kleist
Abyssal Infinity
#81 - 2013-03-28 17:07:07 UTC
Those ARE facts, Kim-haani. Since the Executor assumed so readily the "direction" of the State, it is only fitting that he assumes the responsibilities.
Pieter Tuulinen
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#82 - 2013-03-28 18:30:48 UTC
Svetlana Scarlet wrote:

If you think the other members of the CEP will join Heth in extreme sanction against Ishukone, you are even more delusional than I thought you were.


I can confirm that although Pyre-Falcon was operating under contract to Ishukone for the operation, we did so at the direct behest of the CEP, which sought our cooperation. We were proud to cease and desist all other contracts to allow us to give our full attention to Ishukone's CEP-sponsored relief effort.

For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.
Makoto Priano
Kirkinen-Arataka Transhuman Zenith Consulting Ltd.
Arataka Research Consortium
#83 - 2013-03-28 19:07:21 UTC
By the way, Tuulinen-haan, if you could provide me the name of your Ishukone contact point, it would be greatly appreciated. I fear my contacts are involved in day-to-day operations, and have limited executive power.

Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries: exploring the edge of the known, advancing the state of the art. Would you like to know more?
Pieter Tuulinen
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#84 - 2013-03-28 20:43:00 UTC
Makoto Priano wrote:
By the way, Tuulinen-haan, if you could provide me the name of your Ishukone contact point, it would be greatly appreciated. I fear my contacts are involved in day-to-day operations, and have limited executive power.


I'll see what I can do, Priano-haani.

For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.
Xindi Kraid
Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries Ltd.
Arataka Research Consortium
#85 - 2013-03-28 20:57:09 UTC
Fractal Muse wrote:
Lucas Raholan wrote:


You, who as a capsuleer, slaughter hundreds, thousands, perhaps even millions of lives in space when you blow up battleships are concerned about some on Caldari Prime? I find that sentiment to be highly suspect or perhaps this is how you try to atone for the death that you have caused?
I don't know about the rest of you, but my XO doesn't have my ships crewed by civilians. A trained crewman who receives wages to serve on board a combat vessel is not the same thing as a civilian on the surface of a planet caught in the crossfire during a war.
[quote]
How many will die because of Reppola's politics?

Since he's sending humanitarian aid, I suspect that will be a negative number.
Toluijin Chagangan
Doomheim
#86 - 2013-03-28 21:53:44 UTC
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
Liuni Kalthis wrote:
Diana Kim wrote:
Liuni Kalthis wrote:

The order to use a planet ruining weapon on your State's own world with Caldari citizens on it; if that isn't treason I don't know what is. I didn't know the Caldari sacrificed citizens so readily if it isn't considered a breach of leadership and loyalty.

The fact is, that the citizens were killed only because of gallente attack on blockading force. They didn't die from Caldari guns.

Gallenteans commited the hugest atrocity and mistake in their life. They will pay.


For blowing up a Titan pointing a gun at a population...that had orders to fire. I don't understand your logic, even police fire first when the offending party pulls a gun and points it at an innocent.


What if a law-abiding citizen simply states loudly that he has acquired a gun for self-defence and then doesn't use that gun offensively for FIVE years?

What does that citizen have the right to do if another citizen kicks in the door of his house?


Lets continue your analogy here Pieter.

If he spends that entire five years pointing that gun at the heads of his wife and children, and announcing that if anyone comes into his house he will fire.

then yes, the police are likely to use trained snipers to remove him as a threat to his family.

This was the situation on Caldari prime.

I have recently posted in the thread 'let it go'. Read my idea, and please, comment on it. I feel it is a possible solution to this situation. It will not give anyone all that they want, but compromise is required.

Seven Tribes.
One Matari People.
Devils Embrace
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#87 - 2013-03-28 22:31:19 UTC
Streya Jormagdnir wrote:
I cannot help but feel some level of sympathy for the Caldari in this situation. We too lost our homeworld, and we too came back later and retook it. Why are the Caldari being denied sovereign control over the planet of their origin? The Gallente have settled countless temperate worlds. What do they have to lose, other than what appears to this outsider as bragging rights, by allowing the Caldari to claim Caldari Prime as their own? The Gallente recognized our own ties to our home planet. I ask that they consider doing the same for the Caldari, who once shared the Luminaire system with them.

When pride grows larger than respect and wisdom, divisions form and wars are fought.


Would you allow someone to build a fort in your backyard and live there? Someone hostile and who doesn't like you?

It's like they usually say about fantasy MMO's and men playing female characters: "If I'm going to spend alot of time watching this character, it might as well have a good looking ass".
Pieter Tuulinen
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#88 - 2013-03-28 22:53:30 UTC
Devils Embrace wrote:
Streya Jormagdnir wrote:
I cannot help but feel some level of sympathy for the Caldari in this situation. We too lost our homeworld, and we too came back later and retook it. Why are the Caldari being denied sovereign control over the planet of their origin? The Gallente have settled countless temperate worlds. What do they have to lose, other than what appears to this outsider as bragging rights, by allowing the Caldari to claim Caldari Prime as their own? The Gallente recognized our own ties to our home planet. I ask that they consider doing the same for the Caldari, who once shared the Luminaire system with them.

When pride grows larger than respect and wisdom, divisions form and wars are fought.


Would you allow someone to build a fort in your backyard and live there? Someone hostile and who doesn't like you?


Depends. Is your enormous backyard owned by a host of different people? Are they building that fort on their own land?

For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.
Simon Louvaki
Khaldari InnoTektoniks and Analytical Solutions
#89 - 2013-03-28 23:12:15 UTC
Devils Embrace wrote:


Would you allow someone to build a fort in your backyard and live there? Someone hostile and who doesn't like you?


Guess you shouldn't have built your yard around our house then aye? joking aside, just because your yard surrounds our house doesn't give you the right to claim our home because we have to tread across the lawn. As neighbors we have to get along or else we're just going to trash the neighborhood, but it certainly won't help endear us to you if you keep trying bulldoze our home just so you can feel better about not having tread marks in your grass.

-- "The weak of mind are quick to judge with slightest tempt; Thus fools go forth to spread false word." - The Scriptures, Book of Trials 2:13 - 2:21

--"At the narrow passage, there is no brother and no friend." - Hyasyoda Proverb
Makoto Priano
Kirkinen-Arataka Transhuman Zenith Consulting Ltd.
Arataka Research Consortium
#90 - 2013-03-28 23:37:10 UTC
You know, despite being stretched to an almost absurd point, the yard analogy actually continued to hold. I'm impressed!

Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries: exploring the edge of the known, advancing the state of the art. Would you like to know more?
Xindi Kraid
Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries Ltd.
Arataka Research Consortium
#91 - 2013-03-29 01:13:20 UTC
Makoto Priano wrote:
You know, despite being stretched to an almost absurd point, the yard analogy actually continued to hold. I'm impressed!

Indeed. It seems to be rather apt, and despite it being a very important issue, I can't help but be amused by the yard analogy.
Diana Kim
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#92 - 2013-03-29 14:18:44 UTC
Gustav Kleist wrote:
Those ARE facts, Kim-haani. Since the Executor assumed so readily the "direction" of the State, it is only fitting that he assumes the responsibilities.

I have asked you about facts of treason and backstabbing. About results of the investigation.
So far as backstabbing and treason I can see only some lowly dirty outcasts, who dare to express anti-provist (and thus anti-State) views while claiming to be loyal.
Even Ishukone didn't commit real treason. They just disgraced themselves and showed little respect to our values and lives of all those, who died defending Caldari Prime.

Xindi Kraid wrote:

Since he's sending humanitarian aid, I suspect that will be a negative number.

Despite how much I would want it, no one can "undead" those who have already passed.

Honored are the dead, for their legacy guides us.

In memory of Tibus Heth, Caldari State Executor YC110-115, Hero and Patriot.
Xindi Kraid
Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries Ltd.
Arataka Research Consortium
#93 - 2013-03-29 14:25:20 UTC
What I meant was, people who might otherwise have died, might be saved by this aid, whether it is medicine for the injured, or food for the starving.

Nothing can retroactively reduce the death toll of this tragic event, but hopefully this aid helps reduce the death toll in the aftermath.
Fractal Muse
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#94 - 2013-03-29 14:48:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Fractal Muse
Xindi Kraid wrote:
I don't know about the rest of you, but my XO doesn't have my ships crewed by civilians. A trained crewman who receives wages to serve on board a combat vessel is not the same thing as a civilian on the surface of a planet caught in the crossfire during a war.

And that is what you tell yourself?

I pity the delusions you attempt.

But, going with your claim, those who settled upon Caldari Prime did so knowing that the land was not their own. Or, those who went back did so knowing full well that the Gallente were ever ready to take back control of Caldari Prime. In each circumstance the settlers knew the risks and accepted them by the act of settling. Just like you claim your crew knows its risks when they come on board.

To try to claim that somehow the "citizens" on Caldari Prime are innocent in this matter is naive. The only ones I am willing to accept are truly innocent are the newly born on the planet who didn't have a choice to stay or leave. If any children did die in this fighting then who is to blame? The Caldari? The Gallente? Who shot down the titan and caused it to crash into the land?

Who hired the mercenaries to fight?

Who pulled the trigger?

You claim it was Heth. I wish I lived in your world where everything is so cleanly right and wrong. But, ask yourself, who hired the mercenaries on the ground that perpetrated the situation?
Quote:
Fractal Muse wrote:

How many will die because of Reppola's politics?

Since he's sending humanitarian aid, I suspect that will be a negative number.

Can you not see that Reppola is openly challenging the authority and leadership of Heth? How do you think Heth will react? How do you think the loyal to the Caldari State will react? This is a political move designed to escalate the situation.

If Reppola really cared about the people on Caldari Prime he would have arranged for the supplies to be brought in by a neutral third party. He could have donated everything to the Sisterhood as an example. But, no, he purposefully and wantonly made his great "humanitarian" effort public to challenge the Caldari leadership.

This is a prelude to destruction and death.
Malcolm Khross
Doomheim
#95 - 2013-03-29 15:15:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Malcolm Khross
Fractal Muse wrote:

Can you not see that Reppola is openly challenging the authority and leadership of Heth? How do you think Heth will react? How do you think the loyal to the Caldari State will react? This is a political move designed to escalate the situation.

If Reppola really cared about the people on Caldari Prime he would have arranged for the supplies to be brought in by a neutral third party. He could have donated everything to the Sisterhood as an example. But, no, he purposefully and wantonly made his great "humanitarian" effort public to challenge the Caldari leadership.

This is a prelude to destruction and death.


Ignoring the first part of your argument because it's complete fallacy, I'll move on to something a bit more logical but still incorrect.

Chief Executor Mens Reppola of Ishukone is acting well within his authority in doing what he is doing. Is this an open challenge of Heth's merit and authority? Perhaps.

Heth has already indicated how he will react: a formal investigation into Ishukone's affairs. The results of this investigation will no doubt be revealed in due time and it could potentially serve to escalate the situation, yes.

However, that escalation is internal and is the business of the Caldari people. Your assertions over who is loyal to the State and who isn't are completely farcical. What you mean to say is "who is loyal to Tibus Heth and who isn't."

The State is not one man. It never was.

~Malcolm Khross
Gustav Kleist
Abyssal Infinity
#96 - 2013-03-29 15:53:11 UTC
Diana Kim wrote:
I have asked you about facts of treason and backstabbing. About results of the investigation.
So far as backstabbing and treason I can see only some lowly dirty outcasts, who dare to express anti-provist (and thus anti-State) views while claiming to be loyal.


There is something called ''command responsibility". They teach it in the first courses in the Naval Academy. No true leader would try to shift blame away from him by publicly declaring an investigation on the field commander he chose himself, just because said commander lost a battle, against overwhelming odds, while destroying a good part of the attacking force.

That, and other things that I've pointed out, when done by a man in the position the Executor has created, are backstabbing and treason.

And it's precisely why the State should never be run by a single man.
Xindi Kraid
Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries Ltd.
Arataka Research Consortium
#97 - 2013-03-29 16:13:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Xindi Kraid
Fractal Muse wrote:
Xindi Kraid wrote:
I don't know about the rest of you, but my XO doesn't have my ships crewed by civilians. A trained crewman who receives wages to serve on board a combat vessel is not the same thing as a civilian on the surface of a planet caught in the crossfire during a war.

And that is what you tell yourself?

I pity the delusions you attempt.

But, going with your claim, those who settled upon Caldari Prime did so knowing that the land was not their own. Or, those who went back did so knowing full well that the Gallente were ever ready to take back control of Caldari Prime. In each circumstance the settlers knew the risks and accepted them by the act of settling. Just like you claim your crew knows its risks when they come on board.
Oh yeah, I am sure the housing agency informed the new settlers that there was a 37% chance of capital ships falling out of the sky.

That land WAS theirs to settle. Caldari Prime was signed over to the State by President Foirtran. If it wasn't safe it was due to the Gallente reneging on the treaty.

Are you one of those people who when a natural disaster hits, claims the people caught up in it should have known their world was going to kill them? Or maybe if someone builds a house out of wood, it's their own fault if it burns down? You have a VERY skewed world view, in that case.

Quote:
To try to claim that somehow the "citizens" on Caldari Prime are innocent in this matter is naive. The only ones I am willing to accept are truly innocent are the newly born on the planet who didn't have a choice to stay or leave. If any children did die in this fighting then who is to blame? The Caldari? The Gallente? Who shot down the titan and caused it to crash into the land?

Who hired the mercenaries to fight?

Who pulled the trigger?

You claim it was Heth. I wish I lived in your world where everything is so cleanly right and wrong. But, ask yourself, who hired the mercenaries on the ground that perpetrated the situation?

I never claimed it was Heth's fault. His politics had a hand in escalating the situation, yes, but it was the Gallente who landed troops on Caldari prime forcing him to react, and it was the Gallente fleet that shot down the Shiigeru, and it was president Roden who is using these atrocities to feed his bottom line.

I have said Heth is only leading the Caldari State down a bad road, and his response to this incident is uncalled for, but he wasn't the main perpetrator of this atrocity.
Ravay Kanjus
Infinity Blue
#98 - 2013-05-07 20:29:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Ravay Kanjus
Old thread I know, but I came across the news of the Shiigeru loss the other day. Thanks to Astroyka's fantastic retelling of what happened, I know how it went, but I'm confused on the claims of Tibus betraying his people. Feel like I'm missing something important. I was out of touch with the news of new eden for a few years.