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Heth responds to loss of Shiigeru and Ishukone contact with Gallente senate

Author
Andreus Ixiris
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#21 - 2013-03-27 11:14:41 UTC
You know, I get a very distinct sensation of "anyone else's fault but mine" from Heth's statement.

Andreus Ixiris > A Civire without a chin is barely a Civire at all.

Pieter Tuulinen > He'd be Civirely disadvantaged, Andreus.

Andreus Ixiris > ...

Andreus Ixiris > This is why we're at war.

Diana Kim
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#22 - 2013-03-27 12:04:44 UTC
Uraniae Fehrnah wrote:
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
I have no words to express my feelings. When a man betrays the State we call it treason, what is it called when the State Executor betrays his men?



Treason, negligence, cowardice, irresponsible, hypocrisy, arrogance, corruption. Take your pick, though I think all of them might be very contrary to the concept of a meritocracy.

But also these words describe those, who would claim, that our current Executor betrays his men.

Actually, there is another one word. One word, that means a bit more. One word, that implies some actions should be taken. Some serious, maybe even fatal actions against such person. Because this word is
MUTINY

Honored are the dead, for their legacy guides us.

In memory of Tibus Heth, Caldari State Executor YC110-115, Hero and Patriot.

Toluijin Chagangan
Doomheim
#23 - 2013-03-27 12:13:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Toluijin Chagangan
From the look of the rules that have governed Caldari society from before Heth rose to power, it is the duty of the Caldari people to question the validity of their leaders when those leaders have proven that they do not have the merit to lead.

If Heth has not proven this to his people by now, the winds must weep for you all.


Seven Tribes.
One Matari People.
Diana Kim
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#24 - 2013-03-27 12:24:42 UTC
Toluijin Chagangan wrote:
From the look of the rules that have governed Caldari society from before Heth rose to power, it is the duty of the Caldari people to question the validity of their leaders when those leaders have proven that they do not have the merit to lead.

Indeed. But not everyone is allowed to do this, only those who has highest merits. For example, if you were Caldari and you wanted to question Heth for any reason, you had to join CPD first. And then you can question all you want.
Until that it would be a treason.

Honored are the dead, for their legacy guides us.

In memory of Tibus Heth, Caldari State Executor YC110-115, Hero and Patriot.

Toluijin Chagangan
Doomheim
#25 - 2013-03-27 12:31:16 UTC
Read my post again.

Before Heth rose to power the was no CPD.

The building blocks of Caldari society have always been that those in power are responsible for and answerable for their actions. That even the lowest ranking member of a corporation can raise his greivances to his direct superiors and have that sent up the chain of command.

This has only changed since Heth's rise to power. He has created a position that did not exist and protected that position with a force that did not exist.
At this time, it seems that he is interested only in maintaining that power, rather than the wellbeing of his people.

I honestly pity you all.
You perhaps most of all Kim, when his house of cards comes crashing down, it is you and those who think as you are that will be caught in the wreckage.


Seven Tribes.
One Matari People
Xindi Kraid
Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries Ltd.
Arataka Research Consortium
#26 - 2013-03-27 12:40:11 UTC
Diana Kim wrote:
Uraniae Fehrnah wrote:
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
I have no words to express my feelings. When a man betrays the State we call it treason, what is it called when the State Executor betrays his men?



Treason, negligence, cowardice, irresponsible, hypocrisy, arrogance, corruption. Take your pick, though I think all of them might be very contrary to the concept of a meritocracy.

But also these words describe those, who would claim, that our current Executor betrays his men.

Actually, there is another one word. One word, that means a bit more. One word, that implies some actions should be taken. Some serious, maybe even fatal actions against such person. Because this word is
MUTINY

Are you for real? Did you just ignore everything Heth said and did that doesn't agree with your skewed view of him?
He put an admiral in charge and is now implying she is a traitor by promising to investigate the actions she took. That's a betrayal of her and the Caldari Navy.
By doing this he has essentially claimed no responsibility for the state of events he had a hand in setting in motion which is a betrayal of the principles the State is built upon.

In this situation, mutiny is perfectly justifiable to remove from power a man who has demonstrated he deserves none of that power.
Diana Kim
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#27 - 2013-03-27 12:54:12 UTC
Toluijin Chagangan wrote:
Read my post again.

Before Heth rose to power the was no CPD.

The building blocks of Caldari society have always been that those in power are responsible for and answerable for their actions. That even the lowest ranking member of a corporation can raise his greivances to his direct superiors and have that sent up the chain of command.

This has only changed since Heth's rise to power. He has created a position that did not exist and protected that position with a force that did not exist.

Technically, position of Executor means head of CPD, thus only CPD has power on him. Just like a janitor who starts to insult CEO will be just kicked from the corporation, this way a regular citizen questioning the Executor will be cast out. Because in order to do so, you have to earn merit first. This is the Caldari way. This is how meritocracy works.


Toluijin Chagangan wrote:
I honestly pity you all.
You perhaps most of all Kim, when his house of cards comes crashing down, it is you and those who think as you are that will be caught in the wreckage.

I am a combat pilot, sir. I find myself in a wreckage much more often than that.

Honored are the dead, for their legacy guides us.

In memory of Tibus Heth, Caldari State Executor YC110-115, Hero and Patriot.

Toluijin Chagangan
Doomheim
#28 - 2013-03-27 13:12:36 UTC
Historically, since the inception of the State, it is the CEP and CBT that have overseen the state.
The position of state executor has no historical precident.
As he has claimed dominion over the entire state the position is not as simple as 'leader of the CPD'

You also appear to not realise how a Meritocracy works.
What you describe is a dictatorship.

In a meritocracy those who show the merit for a position are granted that position, and maintain their position by continuing to show that merit. Should they prove that they no longer have the merit to maintain their position they are removed.

In this instance, 'Merit' refers to skill, ability and physical capacity.
Heth, by his actions and declining health, has proven that he simply does not have the required merit to lead the state.

If of course he believes in a true meritocracy, as he has so vehemently claimed in the past.

Finally, you know full well that I meant a metaphysical wreckage. How do you think the Megacorporations, CEP and CBT are likely to react towards the Provists who have been silencing Heth's enemies once Heth has been removed from power?


Seven Tribes.
One Matari People.
Diana Kim
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#29 - 2013-03-27 13:17:05 UTC
Xindi Kraid wrote:

Are you for real? Did you just ignore everything Heth said and did that doesn't agree with your skewed view of him?
He put an admiral in charge and is now implying she is a traitor by promising to investigate the actions she took. That's a betrayal of her and the Caldari Navy.

Sir, could I please ask you for something? I beg you, to read words that are written on your projection screen, and not in your imagination. It will really help the discussion.
Investigation means just investigation and nothing else. Investigation is what we need to understand what happened and to avoid mistakes in future. Do you know the real reasons behind this investigation? There are rumors that the titan got shields down from 100 to 17% in just a couple of seconds. I haven't seen it myself, since I have other targets, and I am really interested in results of this investigation to understand what really happened there.

Xindi Kraid wrote:

By doing this he has essentially claimed no responsibility for the state of events he had a hand in setting in motion which is a betrayal of the principles the State is built upon.

I don't even... where is this part of gallente-driven gibberish propaganda from? Locate the source, destroy and avoid citing in the future.

Xindi Kraid wrote:

In this situation, mutiny is perfectly justifiable to remove from power a man who has demonstrated he deserves none of that power.

Mutineers will be dealt with by using deadly force. Catch them all and make an example of them. That would be the best thing to do. Maybe even present dealing with them in a bit, you know, graphical manner.

On other hand... I think I possibly made a mistake. By talking to a gallentean bootlicker like to a citizen. Gladly I didn't give away any sensitive information, and that rumour that titan dropped shields too fast, since it was transmitted in local. Well, at least I can say that this attitude about our State is definitely not of Caldari origin, further investigation is required.

Honored are the dead, for their legacy guides us.

In memory of Tibus Heth, Caldari State Executor YC110-115, Hero and Patriot.

Diana Kim
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#30 - 2013-03-27 13:31:14 UTC
Toluijin Chagangan wrote:
Historically, since the inception of the State, it is the CEP and CBT that have overseen the state.
The position of state executor has no historical precident.
As he has claimed dominion over the entire state the position is not as simple as 'leader of the CPD'

You also appear to not realise how a Meritocracy works.
What you describe is a dictatorship.

In a meritocracy those who show the merit for a position are granted that position, and maintain their position by continuing to show that merit. Should they prove that they no longer have the merit to maintain their position they are removed.

In this instance, 'Merit' refers to skill, ability and physical capacity.
Heth, by his actions and declining health, has proven that he simply does not have the required merit to lead the state.

If of course he believes in a true meritocracy, as he has so vehemently claimed in the past.

Finally, you know full well that I meant a metaphysical wreckage. How do you think the Megacorporations, CEP and CBT are likely to react towards the Provists who have been silencing Heth's enemies once Heth has been removed from power?

I don't like jaijii who take too much on their back by telling Caldari what being Caldari means. You know, spine can break.
But well, I can teach this one tribal a lesson.
Executor of CPD wasn't mean to be a position of head of the State. It became so defacto after all, I repeal ALL of megacorp CEOs has joined the CPD. This means position of Executor has CEOs as subordinates, and they have ability to question him, not other peoples, and especially not some primitive jaijii, that should have stayed in amarrian slavery and not poke his tribal nose into others affairs!

To judge others you have to have merit to do so. We do not endorse some sort of mob voting or other tribal ruling forms. In order to lead in Caldari State you first show merit, then take a position, not the other way. Ability to change leader is part of ruling too.
Only the merited must rule!
Those of Caldari, who are calling for replacement or removing sit of the Executor without actually being in CPD are not Caldari, because they break principle of meritocracy and they are trying to rule the State without having actual merits to do so. They are disgrace of our society and most of them are outcasts already.

Of course, one cannot cast out a jaijii, but, you know, shooting always works.

Honored are the dead, for their legacy guides us.

In memory of Tibus Heth, Caldari State Executor YC110-115, Hero and Patriot.

Xindi Kraid
Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries Ltd.
Arataka Research Consortium
#31 - 2013-03-27 13:44:53 UTC
You need to read that again. It said he is investigating the actions taken by Yanala and Okuuda. He isn't investigating the cause of the loss of that ship, he has skipped straight to blaming the people he put in charge and is investigating them. To put their actions under investigation is to imply they are either incompetent or traitors.

He put Admiral Yanala in charge of the task force, and he didn't do anything to help get the Shiigeru better supported in the heart of enemy territory, so Heth shares responsibility for this colossal blunder, but he would rather 'investigate' members of the Caldari Navy, and wahs his hands of the whole situation.

I don't know what State you are from, but it certainly isn't the Caldari State. The Caldari way is that of a meritocracy: the people in power have that power because they have demonstrated they deserve to lead because they have the ability to do so. Heth has lost that ability, so it is time for him to step down or be forced down.

I am interested in the good of the Caldari people, but since I didn't go the the Tibus Heath academy of brainwashing, I am able to tell that he has outlived his usefulness, and is now acting against our best interest. If there is a bootlicker in here, its the Provist bootlicker named Diana Kim. Do the universe a favor and have some tea.
Hevaima Gesakaarin
Doomheim
#32 - 2013-03-27 13:52:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Hevaima Gesakaarin
Diana Kim wrote:

Technically, position of Executor means head of CPD, thus only CPD has power on him. Just like a janitor who starts to insult CEO will be just kicked from the corporation, this way a regular citizen questioning the Executor will be cast out. Because in order to do so, you have to earn merit first. This is the Caldari way. This is how meritocracy works.


Technically, the Executor serves at the discretion of the Chief Executive Panel and its members within a specific mandate. It would be a grievous misconception to believe that the situation is the reverse. Perhaps to use your analogy, an Executor that starts to insult the members of the CEP may just find themselves facing unforeseen consequences if, in forgetting just who it is that preserves their power, decides to call decisions to account.

This is the Caldari way.

This is how meritocracy works.

I would expect the Executives of the CEP, being the most able of us no doubt already know this and will continue to carry out their obligations to their citizens and the State with the decorum and dignity that befits their positions of leadership and authority.
Del Vikus
Sundered Core
#33 - 2013-03-27 14:06:00 UTC
I am guessing from Heth's sputtering rage that he suggests some collusion between Ishukone and the Federation?

While I understand and accept the troubled history between himself and that corporation, is it not just possible that there is some slight merit to his suspicions? The "humanitarian" legacy of Otro Gariushi is wildly overstated; Ishukone may be jockeying for position in a prelude to a coup.

And as much as I respect the values of the Federation (on paper), I would not put it past them to take advantage of an "inside" player such as Ishukone in the future manipulations of the Caldari situation.
Toluijin Chagangan
Doomheim
#34 - 2013-03-27 14:22:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Toluijin Chagangan
Kim, Firstly, your rage and insults only prove that you have difficulty entering reasonable debate against a well formed argument.

I, thankfully, have never been enslaved. I grew up amongst my own kin and free to believe in the ways and beliefs of my ancestors. Your insinuation that I would be better served addicted to vitoc and in an amarrian slave camp is both farcical and another attempt at a direct insult in response to reasoned and polite debate.

Your desription of the caldari state is heavily flawed. you are in fact claiming that to be a caldari citizen you first have to be a member of the CPD. This is untrue.

You also claim i am telling you what is means to be caldari, I am not. I am instead stating what historical fact showed it 'was' to be caldari, until approximately half a decade ago.

I have already defined a meritocracy, as have many from within the state, Your personal idea of a meritocracy looks remarkably like a military dictatorship.

And finally, I am sure you are capable of forming a corporation of your own and declaring your intent to perform hostile acts against RvB if you so choose, though I have a feeling you will not. Still, Come to Nomaa some day and shoot me without clearance, I may lose a rifter, you will likely lose more.
of course that would mean abandoning your role at the supposed front line of the Caldari-Gallente conflict.
Still, I would accept the challenge of battle, yet i am no fool, if you attack me CONCORD will destroy your ship, I will not accept a duel from someone who has trained for combat for longer than I, you see I am by no means an exceptional combat pilot. but my ships have no crew, so it is only ISK i will lose.


Seven Tribes.
One Matari People
Anslo
Scope Works
#35 - 2013-03-27 14:51:23 UTC
Kim you've really been trying too hard ever since I told people to picture you speaking what you write in that young nasally voice of yours.

You're not even credible now.

[center]-_For the Proveldtariat_/-[/center]

Anabella Rella
Gradient
Electus Matari
#36 - 2013-03-27 14:58:57 UTC
Not even credible now? When did that genocidal, xenophobic and utterly insane waste of biomass ever have any credibility?

When the world is running down, you make the best of what's still around.

Anslo
Scope Works
#37 - 2013-03-27 15:00:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Anslo
Anabella Rella wrote:
Not even credible now? When did that genocidal, xenophobic and utterly insane waste of biomass ever have any credibility?


Well before she just seemed like a typical loyalist. But now she's MORE loyal AFTER Heth ousts himself. Even her kirjuunen aren't too thrilled with her.

Side note: Spelling fixed thanks to Khross-haan.

[center]-_For the Proveldtariat_/-[/center]

Malcolm Khross
Doomheim
#38 - 2013-03-27 15:08:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Malcolm Khross
Anslo wrote:
kirijjun

Side note: I'm so sorry if I spelled that wrong. I'm still working on my Napaani.


Singular would be: kirjuun.

As I suspect you are using the plural: kirjuunen.

Good luck with your studies of Napanii.

Bright stars and clear horizons.

~Malcolm Khross

Anslo
Scope Works
#39 - 2013-03-27 15:09:43 UTC
Malcolm Khross wrote:
Anslo [i wrote:
kirijjun[/i]]

Side note: I'm so sorry if I spelled that wrong. I'm still working on my Napaani.


Singular would be: kirjuun.

As I suspect you are using the plural: kirjuunen.

Good luck with your studies of Napanii.

Bright stars and clear horizons.


Ugh I always get that wrong.

KIRJUUNEN. Thanks Malcolm.

[center]-_For the Proveldtariat_/-[/center]

Quinzel Nikulainen
Kokako Acquisitions
#40 - 2013-03-27 15:19:43 UTC
Hevaima Gesakaarin wrote:

...

Technically, the Executor serves at the discretion of the Chief Executive Panel and its members within a specific mandate. It would be a grievous misconception to believe that the situation is the reverse. Perhaps to use your analogy, an Executor that starts to insult the members of the CEP may just find themselves facing unforeseen consequences if, in forgetting just who it is that preserves their power, decides to call decisions to account.

...


Well put.

I'm surprised that what Heth's role entails is in any question at all, as opposed to whether he remains fit for the position. Apparently, Diana Kim does not understand even this.

Ex-Kaalakiota citizen. Ex-Hyasyoda citizen. CEO of KŌKAK, a Nugoeihuvi affiliate corporation.