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[Odyssey] Module Rebalancing Part One: RSBs and TEs

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Author
Lina Halid
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#661 - 2013-03-28 11:20:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Lina Halid
Grath Telkin wrote:
Swifty Blowback wrote:
. The future of solo PVP has never looked so grim.


So grim that I spent the entire night PVPing solo unboosted in faction warfare in ships fit with t1 TE's to get used to the difference.

I was shocked to find that there is no noticeable difference.


And by shocked I do mean I told you so.


Faction warfare isn't a solo pvp. Try to fly 30+ jumps in 0.0 and find a good target for your lonely ship and not die - that will be a solo pvp.
Jeanne-Luise Argenau
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#662 - 2013-03-28 11:26:30 UTC
I dont have a mind about the resebo changes. But the te changes suck, i dont mind the change of the meta 0 to meta 5 ones, but i think the faction ones need a boosting compared to t2 and the officer even a bit more. Else why should u fit them only for others to see the bling i dont believe so.
Ana Fox
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#663 - 2013-03-28 11:34:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Ana Fox
Kagura Nikon wrote:


And I dare you to show where I said that the hurricane is useless. I am just arguing that you are using STUPID and USELESS DATA to make your point, even if your point is not wrong.



That same stupid and useless data was used when HML nerf happened,but all turret users were laughing and HTFU spam crap all over forum.

Are this changes are good or bad,I think we will know when they show complete idea about missile disrupting and how they plan to fix rails.We also dont know will they change ship bonuses.As much this look good or bad it is not full info.Neither we know what they will do with ewar ,and I am sure there is a lot more of this threads with changes to follow after this one.

I really have full trust in CCP Fozzie ,cause this guy is busting his ass to make things if nothing more interesting.My main concern is that he will burn out and we can loose best dev we had in long time.So far all changes he made had some sense,and were always part of bigger idea how he thinks pvp should look in future.
Johnson Oramara
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#664 - 2013-03-28 11:56:37 UTC
Why does Fozzie have such an obsession with nerfing things...

He should know that nerfing is seen as a very negative thing as it means people are losing something. And lately there has been so much nerfing and ruining of good old ships that it's getting ridiculous...

Why not buff other things instead? Just don't do like 30% big changes at once like you do in the nerfing. Make small buffs and see over time how things look like. This way people can keep playing like they were and not feel like they were forcibly ripped off of something they spent huge amounts of training, isk and time while paying you guys real money. New tactics and setups would become viable and competitive with the old ones. Do you understand? you would still have what you worked hard for but it would have just as good alternatives and counters.
That would be a win-win situation in my opinion. Nerf hammer should be the absolutely final and last option.

And what is this favoring towards large alliances as they weren't powerful enough already... It costs ridiculous amount to wardec large alliances while tiny corps are so cheap to dec. And other recent changes and game mechanics seem to favor more and more large blobs.

Does this mean smartbombs and bombs will be nerfed too at some point because zomg! i can actually take on larger fleets with them. Pirate
Roime
Yamagata Syndicate
Shadow Cartel
#665 - 2013-03-28 11:56:51 UTC
Swifty Blowback wrote:

I have many. This alt has none. EvE eh! Damn tricky for some to grasp simple concepts...


No you don't. Damn tricky for some people to accept the truth...


Lina Halid wrote:

Faction warfare isn't a solo pvp. Try to fly 30+ jumps in 0.0 and find a good target for your lonely ship and not die - that will be a solo pvp.


Getting solo fights all the time is solo pvp, doing 30+ jumps and dying to a blob is banging your head against a wall.

.

Roime
Yamagata Syndicate
Shadow Cartel
#666 - 2013-03-28 11:59:29 UTC
Kagura Nikon wrote:


And I dare you to show where I said that the hurricane is useless. I am just arguing that you are using STUPID and USELESS DATA to make your point, even if your point is not wrong.


I wasn't even talking to you in the first place.

What's stupid and useless about the data, care to explain?

.

Bosquit
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#667 - 2013-03-28 12:03:41 UTC
This is the most painful nerf, ugh....I mean "rebalance." If anything the change should be much smaller, or not changed at all. The TE nerf is pretty much forcing a lot of Minmatar ships to become brawlers, that can't really out DPS Blasters anymore, and have worse tanks.

A very poorly thought out change.

"Insert Philosophical Statement Here"

Lina Halid
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#668 - 2013-03-28 12:11:43 UTC
Roime wrote:
Swifty Blowback wrote:

I have many. This alt has none. EvE eh! Damn tricky for some to grasp simple concepts...


No you don't. Damn tricky for some people to accept the truth...


Lina Halid wrote:

Faction warfare isn't a solo pvp. Try to fly 30+ jumps in 0.0 and find a good target for your lonely ship and not die - that will be a solo pvp.


Getting solo fights all the time is solo pvp, doing 30+ jumps and dying to a blob is banging your head against a wall.



The trick is not to die and even kill some. That's why I don't like the idea to nerf TE at all.
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#669 - 2013-03-28 12:19:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Kagura Nikon
Roime wrote:
Kagura Nikon wrote:


And I dare you to show where I said that the hurricane is useless. I am just arguing that you are using STUPID and USELESS DATA to make your point, even if your point is not wrong.


I wasn't even talking to you in the first place.

What's stupid and useless about the data, care to explain?



Let me rephrase... the date is not stupid. The implication that the number of ships that appear in killmails reflects direclty the capabilities of the ship is. There are a lot of other factors, like for example cost and skills needed. That means you can only compare within a same class of ship.

Also after a nerf the drop in usage of a ship is NOT immediate because a lot of people only have good skills for the ship that used to be the best one.


That is why just posting a table of usage of ships is not a very good argument of how good a ship is. One of the reasosn that BC always dominated that table is because they have the best MERGE between cost and power. But you cannot imply form that table for example that they are better than command ships... I have seen people put that table and say. Look.. the hurricane is more used than the vagabond, therefore the vagabond is horrible. Clearly the much higher cost and skills requirement of the vagabond play a HUGE role on those numbers as well.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"

Roime
Yamagata Syndicate
Shadow Cartel
#670 - 2013-03-28 12:37:16 UTC
Obviously not, but the fact that people still have very good success with the ship irrefutably proves that it is not useless.

.

Major Killz
Tr0pa de elite.
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#671 - 2013-03-28 12:42:36 UTC
Roime wrote:
Mr Bright wrote:
You've already destroyed the hurricane so I really hope you stop there.


1# Oracle 56,256
2# Naga 52,642
3# Tornado 51,917
4# Hurricane 48,758
5# Loki 46,526

It's useless


I'm not sure you really flew the Hurricane before the initial changes to tracking enhancers or after the changes to the Hurricane hull.

CCP did not really hurt large fleets of Hurricanes at all. As far as nano-shield-Hurricanes solo? They were still viable, but tier 3 battlecruisers, tech 1 cruiser BOOST and the Harbinger f*cked that real nice.

This change will remove shield-autocannon-Hurricanes for the most part. However, blobs of artillery Hurricanes will still be intact.

The Hurricane is one of the worst kiting battlecruisers at the moment and wasnt the best in the near past. Infact, it was the second or third best for a long time (1. Drake, 2. Hurricane or Harbinger). CCP did not need to NERF it and I said as much in the Hurricane/drake/heavy missile nerf thread. They did it anyway. Still, it wasnt hit hard and the same for the Drake. Infact, CCP later boosted the drake (hahaha).

[u]Ich bin ein Pirat ![/u]

Alek Row
Silent Step
#672 - 2013-03-28 12:42:57 UTC
And TDs are next right?

Grath Telkin
Amok.
Goonswarm Federation
#673 - 2013-03-28 12:44:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Grath Telkin
Lina Halid wrote:

The trick is not to die and even kill some. That's why I don't like the idea to nerf TE at all.


First of all solo PVP is solo PVP, wherever however you do it, by yourself alone in the cold dark. Whoever told you it was 0.0 only or whatever gave you that snobbish idea is beyond me but you have it and nothing can fix it.

One might even argue how flawed that perspective is since the more likely encountered target in 0.0 is a ratter, you know, somebody not prepared to actually fight you back.

Anyway know that of all the stupid things said on these forums, claiming that your version (most likely the scouted boosted type) is the only solo PVP ranks among the most stupid.

As far as the trick being no to die, can you tell me how losing 3kkilometers in fall off from say, a Cane will result in your death? You can stop acting like its 33% of your total range, the final number is so insanely small that theres hardly anything you notice. Even on something like a slicer, it doesn't even bring your damage projection down inside point range.

Couple that with the fact that they've outright stated that the 5% boosts are going away and that the command ship 3% links will be king of the hill, how on earth is losing 3 kilometers going to hurt you? The loss in TE range will be compensated for by an overall reduction in web ranges due to a removal of a broken set of t3 links.

So tell me how the TE nerf results in you dying more, or are you really just a drama queen?

Alek Row wrote:
And TDs are next right?


Tracking Enhancers don't save you from Tracking Disruptors now. You won't really notice a difference if they're nerfed or not.

Malcanis - Without drone assign, the slowcat doctrine will wither and die.

Bouh Revetoile
In Wreck we thrust
#674 - 2013-03-28 12:48:12 UTC
Kagura Nikon wrote:
Also after a nerf the drop in usage of a ship is NOT immediate because a lot of people only have good skills for the ship that used to be the best one.

Yet the data indicate that hurricanes still didn't die, and still kill ships ; which indicate that they are not "useless" per se.

Also, a nerf or buff could also have a direct effect : Drake actually fell from the top. That don't mean they are bad, that mean the nerf had an effect on its use ; as opposed to the hurricane on which the nerf barrely had an effect on its use. Hence we can suppose that people didn't really mind the Hurricane nerf, or at least a lot less than they considered the Drake nerf.

What is interesting is that the Drake suffer in fact less nerf than the Hurricane (HAM buff largely compensate HML nerf IMO), yet battleclinic stats show a larger impact for the Drake than for the Hurricane.

Also, we need to consider all the buffed ships which took place of others without necessarily obsoloting them. There is only 20 places in the top 20, and they must be filled, but that don't mean the ships not in the top 20 are bad. If we need a place for every ship, each niche will be a lot narrower than before, and this could give to some people the feeling that their ship became useless.

Hence, IMO, the Hurricane is fine and didn't suffer that much from its nerf.
Major Killz
Tr0pa de elite.
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#675 - 2013-03-28 12:51:45 UTC
Swifty Blowback wrote:
Michael Harari wrote:
I like how this nerf does next to nothing to blob nagas and such, but is yet another change that makes small gang pvp more difficult. (Sort of like most of the tiericide changes)
...
Pretty much every new thread from fozzie has him saying "I know this makes solo pvp harder but I think its ok"


Yep. The TE nerf is possibly the harshest for solo / small gang PVP in a long time. Viable kiting platforms are being slowly reduced. CCP wants players to be social and play in large corps / blobs because their data says they get more monies when players do that. See last CSM summit write-up for details + see trial account spike after massive blob brawls are publicized. The future of solo PVP has never looked so grim.



While, I agree this will hurt skirmishing. I really doubt this will hurt solo pvpers. Mainly, because I was doing da solo long before tech 3 ships and falloff being introduced to tracking enhancers.

Nothing will likely hurt solo pvp other than a larger player base, proliferation of logistics and electronic warfare. There will still be ways around this outcome, but armageddon would mean the end of roaming.

Anyway.

Nothing will hurt "small gang" or as I call it "small scale warfare".

This is a multiplayer game. Any changes made should be for the purpose, so f*ck solo pvp v0v

[u]Ich bin ein Pirat ![/u]

Alek Row
Silent Step
#676 - 2013-03-28 12:54:34 UTC
Grath Telkin wrote:

Tracking Enhancers don't save you from Tracking Disruptors now. You won't really notice a difference if they're nerfed or not.


My PVP char only fights at frig level, I will notice when TDs get nerfed. Just waiting for it.




amurder Hakomairos
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#677 - 2013-03-28 12:56:28 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:

Let me know what you think!


Ok, so we let you know what we think. Basically seems like 75% of people are not in favor of this unnecessary change. Anyone else think that there is any chance this wont happen anyway?

If you are hell bent on nerfing TE for no reason (unless more blobs is a good reason) then can you at least stop the nerf with T2 and leave the faction/officer TE as they are now? That way those of us who spent 6+ months training T2 projectiles, the support skills, and the skills for the ships that use them can at least buy our way out of your stupidity and continue to use these ships as they should be.

If one thing ever makes me quit eve it will be the god damn cycle of training into some ship/module only to have CCP come nerf it for some half ass reason right after you spend weeks/months skilling for it. Nerfs should only be done as a last resort when a module or ship is so overpowered that it is game breaking and isn't practical to buff other ships/modules to that level. This clearly is not the case with tracking enhancers.

Why is it that you guys seem to love pissing off your player base with nerfs? Nerfs take away from players, and invalidate time spent training skills. If something isn't horribly broken then just leave well enough alone. If something is broken then look at buffing inferior ships/modules first. Everything in the game doesn't need to be equal. Nobody wants to play your vision of bland and generic Eve.
Major Killz
Tr0pa de elite.
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#678 - 2013-03-28 12:59:50 UTC
Kagura Nikon wrote:
[quote=nat longshot][quote=CCP Fozzie]


Game balance must catter first for PVP. PVE is and should be relegated to second place because you are not competign with anyone so there is no real unbalance.

Whining because of the mission ships is the most useless whine you can do. Want a "fix"for that? Propose them and uspport that they make the faction modules a bit stronger, sicne faction modules are mostly used on PVE ships that would not hurt so much PVP balance.



I would suggest:

1. Player versus enviroment (predominate economic sector)
2. Player versus player (this being the icing on the cupcake)
3. Industial input and output (this being the heart of the sand box)

[u]Ich bin ein Pirat ![/u]

Major Killz
Tr0pa de elite.
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#679 - 2013-03-28 13:00:35 UTC
Gypsio III wrote:
Roime wrote:
Swifty Blowback wrote:
Michael Harari wrote:
I like how this nerf does next to nothing to blob nagas and such, but is yet another change that makes small gang pvp more difficult. (Sort of like most of the tiericide changes)
...
Pretty much every new thread from fozzie has him saying "I know this makes solo pvp harder but I think its ok"


Yep. The TE nerf is possibly the harshest for solo / small gang PVP in a long time. Viable kiting platforms are being slowly reduced. CCP wants players to be social and play in large corps / blobs because their data says they get more monies when players do that. See last CSM summit write-up for details + see trial account spike after massive blob brawls are publicized. The future of solo PVP has never looked so grim.


You don't have any kills, solo, small gang or blob



Well, that explains why his future looks so grim. Big smile


Roll

[u]Ich bin ein Pirat ![/u]

Grath Telkin
Amok.
Goonswarm Federation
#680 - 2013-03-28 13:02:17 UTC
amurder Hakomairos wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:

Let me know what you think!


Ok, so we let you know what we think. Basically seems like 75% of people are not in favor of this unnecessary change. Anyone else think that there is any chance this wont happen anyway?

If you are hell bent on nerfing TE for no reason (unless more blobs is a good reason) then can you at least stop the nerf with T2 and leave the faction/officer TE as they are now? That way those of us who spent 6+ months training T2 projectiles, the support skills, and the skills for the ships that use them can at least buy our way out of your stupidity and continue to use these ships as they should be.

If one thing ever makes me quit eve it will be the god damn cycle of training into some ship/module only to have CCP come nerf it for some half ass reason right after you spend weeks/months skilling for it. Nerfs should only be done as a last resort when a module or ship is so overpowered that it is game breaking and isn't practical to buff other ships/modules to that level. This clearly is not the case with tracking enhancers.

Why is it that you guys seem to love pissing off your player base with nerfs? Nerfs take away from players, and invalidate time spent training skills. If something isn't horribly broken then just leave well enough alone. If something is broken then look at buffing inferior ships/modules first. Everything in the game doesn't need to be equal. Nobody wants to play your vision of bland and generic Eve.


I'm sure calling him stupid and not actually using any real facts, just made up numbers that you pulled out of your ass, will both get him on your side, and stop the nerfs.


Malcanis - Without drone assign, the slowcat doctrine will wither and die.