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How Highsec isn't broken - But modern gaming is.
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Zaraz Zaraz
Zontik Paraphernalia Inc
#61 - 2013-03-26 23:22:19 UTC
Some people play games for the challenge. The risk etc etc in Eve provides them with this especially in the way that rising to the Eve challenge means being more or less permanently engaged while you are logged in and in space.

Others play games for entertainment. They want some fun but they also don't want pressure. They want to be able to walk away from the computer to, eg go to the toilet, any time without worrying.

The first kind of players are more or less what the media would call 'gamers'. Eve is aimed squarely at them.

The second kind is what the 'gamers' would, in an MMO, call 'casuals' (and with some disdain). However these 'casuals' would refer to themselves as 'normal' ie they value their lives.

The problem for game companies is that the 'gamers' are the minority of the human population. If they keep their game aimed at gamers they have quite a limited audience.

The 'casuals' are a much much bigger population. If you aim your game at them you stand to make a LOT more money, even though gamers will typically be prepared to pay more and be more loyal in the long run. The sheer numbers of the 'normals' makes up for it.

I think CCP keep trying to cater to the normals. Eg with 'walking in stations' I suspect CCP wanted to create a kind of 'tamagotchi' within Eve for these 'normal human beings' to play in.

But in all honesty, you guys who think you are hardcore because you play internet space ships 'for keeps' and worry about your killboards, and hold it in when you need to go to the bathroom but you are undocked and have to stay at the keyboard, you really are a minority (outside of Eve), you really aren't normal and you really take yourselves (and the game) way too seriously.
Jitalt Pirkibo
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#62 - 2013-03-27 13:04:25 UTC
Gustaf Heleneto wrote:

Erm it's true. I have an account dedicated to such fleets. If all the stars align you can make 150m isk/hr.

And that doesn't include the 7,000 concord LP per site.


And yet the argument that Incursions make highsec income imbalanced is flawed. How many incursion communities are there, that are even capable of reaching just 120m isk/h? ISN surely, DIN on a good day and maybe 2 others i don't know about. Thats. 4x40 pilots. Let's make that 200. From my experience, those groups don't have a lot of fluctuation. So maybe a total of 800 pilots?

The majority of players lives in HS. We recently passed 500k subscriptions, so i think it's safe to say there are 200k pilots in highsec.

So a whoopin 0.4% of highsec is able to pass those 120m/h. With a guesstimate of another 0.6% able to do incursions for 60-90m/h

(Keep in mind that i believe these numbers to be generous)
That isn't unbalanced highsec-income. That's ridiculous.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#63 - 2013-03-27 13:35:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Domina Trix wrote:
You want null sec industry to be more efficient than high sec? isn't null sec space supposed to be the frontier?
No.
Nullsec is meant to be the player-controlled area where you can build your own empire to rival what others have at their disposal.

The problem is that it provides less control than the NPC-controlled areas, and that the reward for building an empire is a kick in the ballsack that is mechanically restricted to always be much worse than what others have at their disposal.

Jitalt Pirkibo wrote:
And yet the argument that Incursions make highsec income imbalanced is flawed.
Not really, no. In its heyday, incursions alone could generate one third the ISK of all bounty-based PvE put together and some 95% of that was done in highsec. A single activity being responsible for that kind of influx was (and to some degree still is) ridiculously imbalanced.

Quote:
So a whoopin 0.4% of highsec is able to pass those 120m/h. With a guesstimate of another 0.6% able to do incursions for 60-90m/h

(Keep in mind that i believe these numbers to be generous)
That isn't unbalanced highsec-income. That's ridiculous.
No, that just makes it worse. It means that a whooping 0.4% of highsec generates roughly 10-15% of all the ISK entering the game. If there ever was an illustration of "unbalanced income", that is it.
Murk Paradox
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#64 - 2013-03-27 13:39:29 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Domina Trix wrote:
You want null sec industry to be more efficient than high sec? isn't null sec space supposed to be the frontier?
No.
Nullsec is meant to be the player-controlled area where you can build your own empire to rival what others have at their disposal.

The problem is that it provides less control than the NPC-controlled areas, and that the reward for building an empire is a kick in the ballsack that is mechanically restricted to always be much worse than what others have at their disposal.



But atleast you can make corps and alliances and coalitions dissappear! You can take their space and put your name on it! Surely that's gotta count for something... oh wait, everyone wants to put an alt in highsec and say "it's there so we use it" then complain it's broken.

It's a vicious circle I tell ya.

This post has been signed by Murk Paradox and no other accounts, alternate or otherwise. Any other post claiming to be this holder's is subject to being banned at the discretion of the GM Team as it would violate the TOS in regards to impersonation. Signed, Murk Paradox. In triplicate.
Jitalt Pirkibo
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#65 - 2013-03-27 13:49:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Jitalt Pirkibo
Tippia wrote:
Jitalt Pirkibo wrote:
And yet the argument that Incursions make highsec income imbalanced is flawed.
Not really, no. In its heyday, incursions alone could generate one third the ISK of all bounty-based PvE put together and some 95% of that was done in highsec. A single activity being responsible for that kind of influx was (and to some degree still is) ridiculously imbalanced.

Quote:
So a whoopin 0.4% of highsec is able to pass those 120m/h. With a guesstimate of another 0.6% able to do incursions for 60-90m/h

(Keep in mind that i believe these numbers to be generous)
That isn't unbalanced highsec-income. That's ridiculous.
No, that just makes it worse. It means that a whooping 0.4% of highsec generates roughly 10-15% of all the ISK entering the game. If there ever was an illustration of "unbalanced income", that is it.


You misunderstand. I mean to say that Incursion income is not the same thing as highsec income. Incursion income clearly was (and maybe still is - i'd like to see the actual data on that) imbalanced. Yet people conclude from high incursion income that highsec income has to be nerfed.
March rabbit
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#66 - 2013-03-27 14:26:28 UTC
Gustaf Heleneto wrote:

RavenTesio wrote:
Even more to the point there is nothing stopping any of you doing Null-Sec Incursions, in-fact High-Sec Incursions will net you 90million (not 150mil, not sure where the hell you pulled that figure from) / hr ... you might be able to get in 1-2 more sites per hrs with a seasoned or high-skilled group of players, but that is only an extra 10mil per site.

You can't farm null incursions like high incursions. HS incursions are the same pilots traveling from incursion to incursion. you can't do that in null. If you are lucky enough to have one spawn in your space you can make some money off it but you can't count on it as an income source like you can in high sec. Also, you have to consider hostile threats, cloaky campers in system, and all the other things that make you halt operations for periods of time in nullsec.

usually cloaked campers used together with dangers:
- roaming gangs
- cyno-drops

non of these dangers can prevent skilled FLEET in CYNO-JAMMED system from doing what they do. Roaming gangs can be detected far away if you really don't want to deal with them and cloaked scout won't point anything because NPC hates e-war.

So nope. Somewhere inside big blue zone incursions ignored just because people are lazy and rich already.

Gustaf Heleneto wrote:
And yes, 120m an hour is the new standard in high sec, and more is possible. You can down TCRCs with 12 minutes from payout to payout with a halfway decent group.

you keep saying "high-sec income is 120 mil/hour" so i will ask: why would you even waste 1 hour of your play time to get this silly millions if you already have 20+ billions (which is pretty standard wallet amount in high-sec)? (*)



* - Yes, i know. It's not that EVERYONE has 20+ billions in wallet. But as we speak about "new standard" high-sec income why we can't set "new standard" of wallet? If everyone in high-sec does incursions with the best teams and has 120mils/hour then everyone in high-sec has 20+ billions in wallet and doesn't even need to waste time in incursions.

The Mittani: "the inappropriate drunked joke"
Murk Paradox
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#67 - 2013-03-27 14:38:00 UTC
^^ I like this man's logic.

Now I just need the 20bil in my wallet =(

This post has been signed by Murk Paradox and no other accounts, alternate or otherwise. Any other post claiming to be this holder's is subject to being banned at the discretion of the GM Team as it would violate the TOS in regards to impersonation. Signed, Murk Paradox. In triplicate.
Grigori Annunaki
#68 - 2013-03-27 16:55:46 UTC
I'd also like 20b, plz. Where do I apply for my stipend?
Velicitia
XS Tech
#69 - 2013-03-27 17:18:32 UTC
Grigori Annunaki wrote:
I'd also like 20b, plz. Where do I apply for my stipend?



your nearest Goonswarm recruiting office. Blink

One of the bitter points of a good bittervet is the realisation that all those SP don't really do much, and that the newbie is having much more fun with what little he has. - Tippia
David Cedarbridge
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#70 - 2013-03-31 10:14:40 UTC
Stan'din wrote:
Jerome Hauleralt wrote:
RavenTesio wrote:
Seriously in my opinion the ENTIRE situation in Null-Sec right now is one of the Sovereignty Alliances OWN DOING.


This is all that really needs to be said for any past, present, and future nerf hi-sec/buff null thread. It's the simple truth, and everyone knows it. The spin doctors will be along any moment now to try and unravel this thread as they do all the others, but the fact remains.

Blame it on the sov grind. Blame it on RMT. Blame it on the big blue doughnut. Blame it on null bears filling CSM seats and eventually seats within CCP itself. Blame it on lack of industry/trade/pew/whatever. None of it matters. What it all comes down to in the end is it's the fault of the players that live there, specifically the big power blocks and their endless horde of yes men.




These two know the F'ing score, well said


So what you're saying is, no matter what the "problem" is the only thing that matters is that there is somebody to blame for it? Well, ****. Everyone go home. We're done here.
Liquid Omega
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#71 - 2013-03-31 10:34:30 UTC
OP you miss entirely the fact that most of the games published nowadays are made for the casual gamer out there and to pleasure the maximum of a crowd.

Nevertheless many games obtain their "difficituly" in the multiplayer part / esports branch. Back in the old days there was nothing to compete, only against your own records or the records of your schoolmates.

Today you play the game easy mode in Singleplayer/Casual modes and go hardcore in Multiplayer. Best examples: Starcraft2, LoL, Dota2, esports-Shooter.

They are all easy to play against Bots, Campaign mode and so on. Those games are there to please the crowd, but you can still bite the dust in Multiplayer harder than anywhere else.

Most younger players are just not familiar with the concept of getting into a game and then have to wait months and years of training queues to actually do the "interesting" stuff. Everybody in Eve suffered this "waiting time".

Dont make the mistake and judge over the new generation, because from what i have seen out of the younger people and what they achieved in gaming/esports is beyond anything what "older generations" where able to do in any way.
Like the gaming industry improves and takes new routes, the new generations consuming those games are improving too.
Djana Libra
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#72 - 2013-03-31 15:25:06 UTC
@OP its not only modern games it is also nowadays gamers, they want theme park walk troughs without being able to die and lose stuff.
Lets just call it the lazy generation, if it takes effort and time they don't wanna do it.
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#73 - 2013-03-31 17:54:39 UTC
Djana Libra wrote:
@OP its not only modern games it is also nowadays gamers, they want theme park walk troughs without being able to die and lose stuff.
Lets just call it the lazy generation, if it takes effort and time they don't wanna do it.

They'll never reach the hardcore level of an EVE Online highsec ice miner.

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
David Cedarbridge
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#74 - 2013-03-31 18:25:17 UTC
Alavaria Fera wrote:
Djana Libra wrote:
@OP its not only modern games it is also nowadays gamers, they want theme park walk troughs without being able to die and lose stuff.
Lets just call it the lazy generation, if it takes effort and time they don't wanna do it.

They'll never reach the hardcore level of an EVE Online highsec ice miner.

Boosh
Ace Uoweme
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#75 - 2013-03-31 21:32:54 UTC
Tiberius StarGazer wrote:
One of the common themes with the anti-highsec CSM candidates were to nerf the rewards of highsec and buff everywhere else because highsec you can make a tonne of ISK an hour and it does not encourage group participation.


And that's due to how industry is, it's the same in almost every other MMO. Trade toons work by themselves or with others who do that work (e.g., mining gangs). When devs try to introduce -- or even force -- group participation players are upset and the activity is usually always changed later (for the lack of use). WoW and EQII did it for awhile, and never went back (in EQII I just went into the group crafting instance by myself and did the work orders...as the other mastercrafters did. Why? I can be done faster by yourself).

Tradeskilling is usually a solo activity. Some want to just quickly get the job done and play another toon. Others want to spend hours manufacturing some huge runs without interruption. Due to that it'll be difficult to get tradeskillers to work together. Closest thing that can work is what is in the game already, like mining gangs. Manufacturers won't work together -- make it that the game requires A tradeskiller to wait on B tradeskiller's product, will cause riots.

It's a misnomer that MMOs is about 100% group activity. Social activity yes, but not grouping up 24/7. People like their quiet time, and they need it or burnout comes much faster.

_"In a world of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act." _ ~George Orwell
Ace Uoweme
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#76 - 2013-03-31 21:38:26 UTC
Djana Libra wrote:
@OP its not only modern games it is also nowadays gamers, they want theme park walk troughs without being able to die and lose stuff.
Lets just call it the lazy generation, if it takes effort and time they don't wanna do it.


Well, us older players who put in 15hr nights/mornings raiding are doing what these days?

Yeah, we're "casual".

Were you even born in 1976 to play Pong? Did you remember your first computer was kit built even (as $3000 was enough to buy a car then)?

That's almost 40 years ago. I put my time into computing and games, now I'm relaxing and treating a game like a game.

_"In a world of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act." _ ~George Orwell
Brooks Puuntai
Solar Nexus.
#77 - 2013-03-31 21:41:46 UTC
Tiberius StarGazer wrote:

Now, just to clarify, my definition of earning enough ISK in game is so you can PLEX with some change to do other things.


Stopped reading here. Income levels SHOULD NOT BE BASED off of the players ability to plex the account.

CCP's Motto: If it isn't broken, break it. If it is broken, ignore it. Improving NPE / Dynamic New Eden
Ace Uoweme
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#78 - 2013-03-31 22:09:27 UTC
Brooks Puuntai wrote:
Tiberius StarGazer wrote:

Now, just to clarify, my definition of earning enough ISK in game is so you can PLEX with some change to do other things.


Stopped reading here. Income levels SHOULD NOT BE BASED off of the players ability to plex the account.


That's a noble stance, but if it wasn't for Time-Codes and PLEX, EvE probably wouldn't have lasted this long (sure exist, but the older folks with the cash would've found another game to cash in on).

Definitions here are: there's those who play to pay and there's those who pay to play. OP is the latter...and you can't get around the fact there's some rich folks out there. I've seen it in MuDs with players sinking 5k/mon on their gaming addictions. EvE is no different. CCP isn't dumb, they'll follow the money like any other business.

_"In a world of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act." _ ~George Orwell
Zaraz Zaraz
Zontik Paraphernalia Inc
#79 - 2013-03-31 22:56:44 UTC
Djana Libra wrote:
@OP its not only modern games it is also nowadays gamers, they want theme park walk troughs without being able to die and lose stuff.
Lets just call it the lazy generation, if it takes effort and time they don't wanna do it.


Without being able to lose stuff. Thats the point for me. Its a game, its not real life. Its supposed to be fun.

How do you have fun when going to the toilet can result in 'losing stuff'? Because for you losing stuff is fun. For me it isn't.

So you play a game where you risk losing stuff when your internet goes down, or because you have to go to the toilet or a million other real life events that could take you afk. And I, instead, play a game where I can go afk and not risk losing stuff.

But I guess you'd say I'm not such an awesome player as you, right? I'm a 'casual' and I play a 'welfare MMO'. Well, I have a life and also want to have some fun playing games.
Ace Uoweme
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#80 - 2013-03-31 23:39:12 UTC
Tiberius StarGazer wrote:
Simple - We grew up on games that were HARD. Older gamers are gamers who are generally very good at games and like ones with steep learning curves. We have fond memories of games that gave no second chances, you lost your lives, there where no check points, no saves, and if you was lucky, you didn't have to rewind the cassette tape to wait 5-10min to reload the entire game.


It was hard not so much due to game mechanics and such it was the insane timesinking devs put into the games.

Corpse runs. Equipment binds. Spending hours trying to get a raid together.

Was it fun?

No.

Just because it was harder doesn't mean it was better.

When EQ/EQII did away with corpse runs did I rage? Nope. It was an unnecessary bump in the road. It's sole purpose was a timesink (all MMOs operate on timesinks). The raids then compared today wasn't harder (well most weren't) it's all the timesinking involved that made them hell. In WoW even, the raids now are like a FPS game with all the movement involved, with addons upon macros upon 10 button mice needed to play competitively. Go into even arena without the macros and be dead in less than 2 minutes. This is what the kids are playing now, we didn't have that then, the games were slower designed to be slower as TIMESINKS. We sunk 7plat into repair bills a week standing still punching buttons. Kids now race around the raid room at a pace that's crazy, using 10 button mice to keep up, with no telling how many macros.

So hard is from players have seen and done. Doubt many of this old guard could do the raids that are around now, even with the help of all the addons and keyboards and game controllers. It's a different generation of gamer now. They're more impatient yes, but they also do much much much more than we did 20 years ago.

It's easier to blame the "other guy" for some idea of ruining a game. I do it as well with console players. But in the end we have to look at how much gaming has changed in these last 20 years, and objectively look at their difficulty. Not just lay blanket blame.

EvE is a sandbox, but it doesn't escape from the exact same woes seen in other MMOs. The commentary and even rants here is no different than what's seen in WoW...with the exact same complaints and reactions. Sandbox isn't really as unique as people are claiming, if it really was a sandbox, we truly be playing the game as we wish...we don't and this thread highlights by how much.

_"In a world of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act." _ ~George Orwell