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How Highsec isn't broken - But modern gaming is.
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Stray Bullets
Perkone
Caldari State
#41 - 2013-03-26 10:57:42 UTC
A long time ago, a null-sec block without a industrial wing was basically waiting to fail.

Today a null-sec block without a logistics wing (JFs) is basically waiting to fail.


I feel sad every time I go to the corp recruitment and every single null-sec corp that's asking for industrial players ... they want miners. Normally these corps have a refinery outpost and want to cash in on that tax. It's a rare sight to see a null-sec corp looking for traders or builders. It just don't make any sense to have them in null-sec with the exception of capital builders.


Space needs to be harder/take longer to go across large distances. This combined with a buff to null-sec industry and a nerf to NPC high-sec industry and we'll have the building blocks for conflict in null once again. I say building blocks as there's many things wrong with null-sec and this won't fix it all.

It wouldn't matter if you have a larger fleet if your pilots can't reship easily. So a smaller alliance with a strong industrial wing would win a war of attrition vs a larger alliance. Just look at regular wars. Primary targets are the military installations and war industry. You want to kill the enemy but also make sure he doesn't have equipment to fight back tomorrow.


My one hope is that this expansion will start to address the current NPC industry madness.
FloppieTheBanjoClown
Arcana Imperii Ltd.
#42 - 2013-03-26 11:26:03 UTC
Then vote Psychotic Monk for CSM.

Founding member of the Belligerent Undesirables movement.
Velicitia
XS Tech
#43 - 2013-03-26 11:37:24 UTC
Tiberius StarGazer wrote:
You died, you suffered the loss, you dealt with it, and tried again. The fact you was potentially have a major setback was something you had to get used to.


This ...

... still haven't beaten all of Mario Brothers* or Zelda (though the latter is more because the battery died in the cartridge Cry)


*in the sense that I've gone from world 1 to 2 to 3 to ...

One of the bitter points of a good bittervet is the realisation that all those SP don't really do much, and that the newbie is having much more fun with what little he has. - Tippia
Krax As
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#44 - 2013-03-26 11:53:07 UTC
all i always read in those kind of threads is:
-risk vs reward (which is broken, I agree)

and therefore either

a: nerf highsec

or

b: buff nullsec / lowsec

to me it seems funny to read that even the most die hard null pros complain about the status of null and the "lack of ISK making possibilities"..
if you know the game so well, then what did you expect when you went there ??
and now you complain about it ? thats like buying a house next to an airport and afterwards complaining about the noise.

and the reason not many industrials and carebears even bother with null is plain and simple because about 95% of
you null players just dont give a rats ass about them. you whine and yell about them being a pain in the butt, about their antisocial behavior yet those are the guys you buy your stuff from when you are called into yet another isk-burning CTA.

i see Null as a personal luxury. when you cannot afford to live there (no matter how you get the isk) then dont go there.
plain and simple. and if you insist that "null is the end game, its where it´s happening" then either find a place , as an alliance, corp, COMMUNITY where you can make the needed isk to finance it, or leave.

i still dont see any reason why a dedicated setup of Indy pos and mining fleets and such in null couldnt suffice.
oh i got it: then probably not everyone could fly an enlarged pixel Pen&%s to show off his mad skills.
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#45 - 2013-03-26 12:23:19 UTC
Tiberius StarGazer wrote:


Now if you want to read my thoughts on highsec, continue from this point - If you don't give a rats arse about my semi Eve political drivel, then skip to the bold HERE a few paragraphs down.

Also please excuse the typing, grammar and spelling as this was all done on my iPhone on the way to and from work...

One of the common themes with the anti-highsec CSM candidates were to nerf the rewards of highsec and buff everywhere else because highsec you can make a tonne of ISK an hour and it does not encourage group participation.

So using mining as an example why this is wrong, anyone who spends anytime mining solo will know that you make at best, 11m ISK an hour, as a group with Orcas and whatnots, then probably 18m ISK an hour. Assuming 100% refine and 0% tax and the player(s) use Jita to sell their minerals.

Say for your average person who might play 2 hours a night with one day off then most optimistic projection solo is 132m ISK a week. Which is just enough to PLEX an account.

Now, just to clarify, my definition of earning enough ISK in game is so you can PLEX with some change to do other things.

So mining as a whole IMO, is actually just about right, would be nice to make more, but hey, it's all dependent on the market.

But, if you work as a group, you can almost double your income, which again also puts down the argument that highsec care bearing is not sociable - In fact I'll argue the contrary, mining is actually an activity you can do on Eve and be very social and help build the bonds for future corps and alliances.

But all arguments that mining is too profitable is complete nonsense because its reward is not pre-set, its entirely based on the economy of Eve, mining is a profitable activity because the demand for minerals make it so. How do you solve this issue? You get more people mining and get more minerals on the market. Simple supply and demand.

Making it easier to gank miners will only serve to push up the value of the minerals and make it more profitable.

So the whole argument is a total nonsense.

Of course gank miners for the lol's, nothing against it, but it shouldn't be too easy unless you like seeing inflation in eve running out of control.

As for mission running, well that's a whole different kettle of fish, that does have an effect on the eve universe in that its an ISK and item faucet that pumps money and resources into the game. Although again, even with a tengu running level 4s solo your income is totally dependent on how quickly you can pop the rats, a newish player in a battleship will still need 3 hours to complete a level 4 mission to make 60m ISK at most. So again, that profitable? Enough to PLEX with change, which eventually goes into very shiny mission running ships.

Mission running I do have a bit more of an issue with given as they do tend to be anti-social activities. But with level 4 missions being a bit harder I hope to see more group activities in this area, but of course you have to reduce the reward in line with the number of players working together, but hopefully you make that up in speed.

I will confess I have digressed somewhat from the title of this post, but I felt I had to air some other thoughts regarding highsec before getting into the meat of my blitherings.

HERE I get to the point.


I'm sorry, but that's a load of....damn, what can I type here that won't get filtered or me kicked...That's a load of Caldari Sow Dung (yea, keepin it in-universe ftw).

The reason I have alts in high sec and only PVE in null and low when I'm bored is because, like very many incursion runners and mission runners and explorers, its jsut plain easier and better in high sec.

The ONLY sub capital ship that performs as well in null sec pve isk making than in organize incursion running is the Vindicator. A Solo Machariel in Angel, Guristas or Serpentis null sec might pull in between 100 to 150ish mil per hour under the right conditions. The SAME machariel in a shiney Incursion HQ fleet will pull that same pilot 180 mil an hour (120-130 mil isk plus Loyalty points) just as fast, and without having to so much as glance at local chat or an intel chanell or having to dock up when neuts/reds come in.

Same with exploration. You can fit a tengu with deepspace probe and fly around high sec looking for 3/10 and 4/10 DED sights just as casually as you or I would walk through a park. You only have to get lucky a couple times a week (even against the competition) to have enough isk to fund 2 or 3 accounts with nothing but plex. I know this because I do this, every month.

Sure, high sec mission runners aren't going to make as much as NPC Null mission runners, but they will do so ALL the time, where as NPC Null runners have loads of crap to deal with like bubbles, gate camps etc. So overall, a high sec mission runner will make more steady isk.

THE above I described is HIGH SEC. Less risk, more Isk for the individual pod pilot. The only way moon goo factors in is if you are a PVP'r. When my PVE ships go boom as they sometimes do, I don't get reimbursed unless it was an awoxing.

just because you haven't learned how to make more isk that you can spend in high sec doesn't mean legions of others haven't....
Stray Bullets
Perkone
Caldari State
#46 - 2013-03-26 12:59:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Stray Bullets
Krax As wrote:
all i always read in those kind of threads is:
-risk vs reward (which is broken, I agree)

and therefore either

a: nerf highsec

or

b: buff nullsec / lowsec

to me it seems funny to read that even the most die hard null pros complain about the status of null and the "lack of ISK making possibilities"..
if you know the game so well, then what did you expect when you went there ??
and now you complain about it ? thats like buying a house next to an airport and afterwards complaining about the noise.

and the reason not many industrials and carebears even bother with null is plain and simple because about 95% of
you null players just dont give a rats ass about them. you whine and yell about them being a pain in the butt, about their antisocial behavior yet those are the guys you buy your stuff from when you are called into yet another isk-burning CTA.

i see Null as a personal luxury. when you cannot afford to live there (no matter how you get the isk) then dont go there.
plain and simple. and if you insist that "null is the end game, its where it´s happening" then either find a place , as an alliance, corp, COMMUNITY where you can make the needed isk to finance it, or leave.

i still dont see any reason why a dedicated setup of Indy pos and mining fleets and such in null couldnt suffice.
oh i got it: then probably not everyone could fly an enlarged pixel Pen&%s to show off his mad skills.



Are you really clueless? What you're basically saying is "you knew it was broken when you went there, so don't complain about it being broken!". Really? When you read something about risk/reward all you can think of is "it's ****** but they knew it before they went there ... so **** them, I've got mine!"?

Tippia wrote:
Weiland Taur wrote:
The Highsec is broken argument is a fraud.
A single highsec system having more industrial capacity than an entire region of null proves you wrong.

…and that's before we get into how you casually skip over the huge cost that null will always incur as if it didn't matter.


This pretty much says it all. A single system in high-sec has more industrial capability than a whole region in null. Do the math on the amount of systems you have in high-sec, then you get an idea of how screwed up the industry is in this game.

I'm not saying remove that industrial capability. I'm saying make it less efficient. Tax it. Do something that will basically get those who are trying to work industry in null-sec some reward for all the risk. At the moment there's no reason to do anything except capital building in nullsec.

EDIT: And yes, I live in High-sec as I'm mostly a industrial player ... and guess what? null-sec sucks at everything compared to high-sec when it comes to industry.
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#47 - 2013-03-26 14:21:38 UTC
Stan'din wrote:
Jerome Hauleralt wrote:
RavenTesio wrote:
Seriously in my opinion the ENTIRE situation in Null-Sec right now is one of the Sovereignty Alliances OWN DOING.


This is all that really needs to be said for any past, present, and future nerf hi-sec/buff null thread. It's the simple truth, and everyone knows it. The spin doctors will be along any moment now to try and unravel this thread as they do all the others, but the fact remains.

Blame it on the sov grind. Blame it on RMT. Blame it on the big blue doughnut. Blame it on null bears filling CSM seats and eventually seats within CCP itself. Blame it on lack of industry/trade/pew/whatever. None of it matters. What it all comes down to in the end is it's the fault of the players that live there, specifically the big power blocks and their endless horde of yes men.




These two know the F'ing score, well said

If you really want to split hairs it boils down to:

Too much of an ISK flow going into corporations and not enough going to the individual pilots.
Static and poorly distributed valuable resources encouraging peaceful cooperation instead of aggression to take what you need.

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.
TheButcherPete
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#48 - 2013-03-26 14:34:42 UTC
Now now, I hope you weren't texting and driving! ;)

that's for teenagers

it helps us eliminate undesirables from the gene pool.

[b]THE KING OF EVE RADIO

If EVE is real, does that mean all of us are RMTrs?[/b]
Domina Trix
McKNOBBLER DRINKING CLAN
#49 - 2013-03-26 15:42:49 UTC
Quote:
This pretty much says it all. A single system in high-sec has more industrial capability than a whole region in null. Do the math on the amount of systems you have in high-sec, then you get an idea of how screwed up the industry is in this game.


You want null sec industry to be more efficient than high sec? isn't null sec space supposed to be the frontier? if it is then it makes no sense to have the industry more efficient. If you want to build a car factory you don't build it in the middle of the Sahara and expect it to be as efficient as one built in Detroit.

Two of the defining characteristics of a carebear are wanting other players to play the way the carebear wants and whining on the forums for the game to change when they don't. Yet I see more threads on these forums from gankers than I do miners whining about wanting the game changed to suit them.
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#50 - 2013-03-26 15:52:37 UTC
Domina Trix wrote:
Quote:
This pretty much says it all. A single system in high-sec has more industrial capability than a whole region in null. Do the math on the amount of systems you have in high-sec, then you get an idea of how screwed up the industry is in this game.


You want null sec industry to be more efficient than high sec? isn't null sec space supposed to be the frontier? if it is then it makes no sense to have the industry more efficient. If you want to build a car factory you don't build it in the middle of the Sahara and expect it to be as efficient as one built in Detroit.

Actually low sec is more of a frontier area, a sort of Barbary coast if you will. It has access to both high sec industry and null sec resources, with very minimal oversight from either empire factions or strong player alliances.

Null sec is more independant city states, where they have as much or a little civilization as their leadership can manage. They have to be more independent in many ways, more self sufficient, as every tie to higher security area's is a vulnerability that can be exploited.

That being said, care needs to be taken that many ties do need to exist (both to high sec industry and to null sec resources not available in their space), as those vulnerabilities need to exist to make the game more dynamic.

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.
Grigori Annunaki
#51 - 2013-03-26 16:04:16 UTC
Stray Bullets wrote:
A long time ago, a null-sec block without a industrial wing was basically waiting to fail.

Today a null-sec block without a logistics wing (JFs) is basically waiting to fail.


This is pretty much it, right here. It's more efficient in terms of risk, maintenance, and general hassle for the nullsec people to just import what they need from highsec. I'm a highsec industrialist for the same reason.

While I would love to move to nullsec and help support an alliance on its campaign of dominance, there's simply no incentive for me to do so. My PvP skills are laughable, though I do enjoy a stint in FW when the urge to blow people up becomes too great. Mostly, I supply my chosen region with high quality artisan T2 products. I'm sure I'm "failing at EVE" or whatever, but that's the area of the game that really drives me.

From my admittedly limited perspective, it seems it's a matter of motivation. There's too much ISK flowing into nullsec corps for them to want to build things locally. Managing mineral/component logistics takes some serious effort, and when it's easier and safer to buy than build, it's no surprise what the landscape will look like. If there was an economic incentive for manufacturing and selling goods in nullsec, as well as a reduction in the pain associated with maintaining an industrial wing, I think you'd see a much greater balance between nullsec and highsec life. After all, no one wants to guard a mining op when they could be sitting next to a titan for 3 hours waiting on a CTA that ends up getting canceled. ;)
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#52 - 2013-03-26 16:11:35 UTC
Tiberius StarGazer wrote:

Say for your average person who might play 2 hours a night with one day off then most optimistic projection solo is 132m ISK a week. Which is just enough to PLEX an account.

Now, just to clarify, my definition of earning enough ISK in game is so you can PLEX with some change to do other things.



Stopped reading here. Your definition is wrong so anything based off of it is also wrong. If you definition held any water, the income for everything should be buffed/nerfed all the time according to PLEX price. The game is not meant to be "free" for everybody. If everyone can earn enough to PLEX starting from day X, then day X+1 the price of a PLEX will go up because of the rarity.
Rhegulius Nycemius
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#53 - 2013-03-26 16:13:36 UTC
As an industrialist I use to have to have operations in Hi, Low, and Null in order to pull in the resources I needed for the toys I'd build and sell in Low-sec.

I say used to because I can now safely (ie. with less losses) do the same solely in Hi-Sec. Why? Well now there is a steady supply of the materials I need being sold in trade-hubs, and a steady supply of people willing to buy and haul toys out to Low and Null. What has changed? To be honest I don't know - the game has matured and their are just more resources floating around on the market, or everyone in Null seems to have trained up a NPC alt to haul out of Hi, and to be honest the pipelines out to Low/Null seem more "calm" (a lot less wars and a lot of alliances happy to keep the supplies flowing).

I am hoping that changes in the game universe shake things up, ie. DUST, in Low and then Null making things more fluid (and fun) just as I'd love to see a change in the war-dec mechanic to deal with the corp-dumping or NPC alts: say a war target tag sticking with you for a week or more even if you dump your corp, or allowing FW war-decs on non-starter NPC corps.

As an industrialist war is good for business... well other people's wars ;)
Athena Maldoran
Doomheim
#54 - 2013-03-26 16:15:27 UTC
Highsec is just small and full.. If highsec was expanded life would thrive in New Eden..
Nova Satar
Pator Tech School
#55 - 2013-03-26 17:09:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Nova Satar
Gustaf Heleneto wrote:

I stopped here...this isn't a common theme against Hi-sec. The argument against high sec is the risk vs. reward doesn't balance with low and null.


You are just comparing Ratting in Null vs Mission in Empire, when really there is alot more involved than that. The reward in Null is FAR greater, but because you are just one of the puppets, you dont get the reward. Ask the alliance leaders and what they think of the Risk vs Reward theory you have.

Not to mention there is more to "rewards" than just raw isk.
Buzzy Warstl
Quantum Flux Foundry
#56 - 2013-03-26 17:12:15 UTC
Athena Maldoran wrote:
Highsec is just small and full.. If highsec was expanded life would thrive in New Eden..

Dare to wander away from Caldari space and your wish will be granted.

http://www.mud.co.uk/richard/hcds.htm Richard Bartle: Players who suit MUDs
Jerome Hauleralt
Doomheim
#57 - 2013-03-26 17:13:12 UTC
Does this forum award titles? If so, I'd like to nominate Tippia for Queen of Null Bear Propaganda.
Sexy Cakes
Have A Seat
#58 - 2013-03-26 19:24:05 UTC
I used to play Pilotwings when I was a kid.

Not today spaghetti.
Untanas Volmyr
Perkone
Caldari State
#59 - 2013-03-26 23:00:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Untanas Volmyr
"Simple - We grew up on games that were HARD. Older gamers are gamers who are generally very good at games and like ones with steep learning curves. We have fond memories of games that gave no second chances, you lost your lives, there where no check points, no saves, and if you was lucky, you didn't have to rewind the cassette tape to wait 5-10min to reload the entire game."

I tried to play eve several times over the years. I believe my puny human mind is finally able to process such an in depth game. Being part of the gaming generation of if you didn't beat it on hard or nightmare your a sissy. This game has satisfied my stubborn pursuit of learning without asking much. While learning sometimes I should ask stuff. Forgot what my point was o well. I guess i just wanted to brag about all the games I beat on hardmode.

Murphy's Technology Law - If your not thoroughly confused. Then you were not thoroughly informed.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#60 - 2013-03-26 23:06:25 UTC
Sexy Cakes wrote:
I used to play Pilotwings when I was a kid.


BOOM

AAAAAGGGHHH

SPLOT.

30 points.