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WH = IMPORTANT!
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Geldorf Drakar
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#41 - 2011-10-25 14:57:30 UTC
Ingvar Angst wrote:
Wu Phat wrote:


I don’t want something that acts like a pos. A pos does what stations lack to do other than cloning service. A pos is not meant to hold or support no more than 1 person and his/her alts industrial activities. The ship maintenance array is only used to catch ships spat out by the ship construction arrays. No different than a Moon miner pooping into a silo. In no way shape or form is a pos meat to be a primary habitable structure for Small medium or large numbers of none super capital pilots that can’t dock.


Ah, ok, thank you, that clarified things for me nicely. I now understand.

You have no idea what the hell you're talking about.



I was thinking the same thing...

Ever since POS's came out, whole corps can be found living out of them. In fact, before freighters came out, it was totally impractical for a single person to run a POS for themselves, it required a group effort to move fuel and mods and set up. Furthermore, the expenses involved were prohibitive unless you were either mining a good moon or had a bunch of folks using the POS as a ratting and mining base.



On the subject on moon mining... Bad idea. Including even a few tech moons into wormhole space would give reason to bring 0.0 blob fests to visit, which would totally wreck the wormhole lifestyle. There is enough ISK to be made without moon mining. If anything, moon mining needs to be revisited and made so that it involves more effort and is more dynamic that it is currently.
Wu Phat
InsufficientFunds LLC.
#42 - 2011-10-25 17:12:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Wu Phat
Geldorf Drakar wrote:
Ingvar Angst wrote:
Wu Phat wrote:


I don’t want something that acts like a pos. A pos does what stations lack to do other than cloning service. A pos is not meant to hold or support no more than 1 person and his/her alts industrial activities. The ship maintenance array is only used to catch ships spat out by the ship construction arrays. No different than a Moon miner pooping into a silo. In no way shape or form is a pos meat to be a primary habitable structure for Small medium or large numbers of none super capital pilots that can’t dock.


Ah, ok, thank you, that clarified things for me nicely. I now understand.

You have no idea what the hell you're talking about.



I was thinking the same thing...

Ever since POS's came out, whole corps can be found living out of them. In fact, before freighters came out, it was totally impractical for a single person to run a POS for themselves, it required a group effort to move fuel and mods and set up. Furthermore, the expenses involved were prohibitive unless you were either mining a good moon or had a bunch of folks using the POS as a ratting and mining base.



On the subject on moon mining... Bad idea. Including even a few tech moons into wormhole space would give reason to bring 0.0 blob fests to visit, which would totally wreck the wormhole lifestyle. There is enough ISK to be made without moon mining. If anything, moon mining needs to be revisited and made so that it involves more effort and is more dynamic that it is currently.



link : http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Small_Ship_Assembly_Array


(Note: To use a ship from a Ship Assembly Array a Ship Maintenance Array with enough free storage space needs to be in range that the ship can be moved there) <<< it's just a plus that you can take ships in and out of the ship maintenance array like you take stuff out of silo's. The only reason a pos even has a bubble shield is to house super's. From that the Idea fell below and got twisted to think that a pos is meant to live out of. It's only an extension for a corporation to fill a void of services that the stations they live out off fail to have, for moon mining and some sovereignty stuff.
Kaaletram Lothyrawir
Trust Brothers LLC.
The Veyr Collective
#43 - 2011-10-25 17:33:38 UTC
Vassal Zeren wrote:
Come on! aren't there more that 12 people WH car about WHs!


Well having recently taken up residence within a worm hole I would count myself as one who definitely cares about the WH, however the people that tend to run in WH space are very independent and more than a bit on the anti social scale of things so...
Ingvar Angst
Nasty Pope Holding Corp
#44 - 2011-10-25 17:40:49 UTC
Wu Phat wrote:
Geldorf Drakar wrote:
Ingvar Angst wrote:
Wu Phat wrote:


I don’t want something that acts like a pos. A pos does what stations lack to do other than cloning service. A pos is not meant to hold or support no more than 1 person and his/her alts industrial activities. The ship maintenance array is only used to catch ships spat out by the ship construction arrays. No different than a Moon miner pooping into a silo. In no way shape or form is a pos meat to be a primary habitable structure for Small medium or large numbers of none super capital pilots that can’t dock.


Ah, ok, thank you, that clarified things for me nicely. I now understand.

You have no idea what the hell you're talking about.



I was thinking the same thing...

Ever since POS's came out, whole corps can be found living out of them. In fact, before freighters came out, it was totally impractical for a single person to run a POS for themselves, it required a group effort to move fuel and mods and set up. Furthermore, the expenses involved were prohibitive unless you were either mining a good moon or had a bunch of folks using the POS as a ratting and mining base.



On the subject on moon mining... Bad idea. Including even a few tech moons into wormhole space would give reason to bring 0.0 blob fests to visit, which would totally wreck the wormhole lifestyle. There is enough ISK to be made without moon mining. If anything, moon mining needs to be revisited and made so that it involves more effort and is more dynamic that it is currently.



link : http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Small_Ship_Assembly_Array


(Note: To use a ship from a Ship Assembly Array a Ship Maintenance Array with enough free storage space needs to be in range that the ship can be moved there) <<< it's just a plus that you can take ships in and out of the ship maintenance array like you take stuff out of silo's. The only reason a pos even has a bubble shield is to house super's. From that the Idea fell below and got twisted to think that a pos is meant to live out of. It's only an extension for a corporation to fill a void of services that the stations they live out off fail to have, for moon mining and some sovereignty stuff.


So we get our wormhole information from experience, and you get yours from... wiki.

Fascinating.

Here's a sample of reality you can mull over. A pos can house entire corps, and those that are larger will often erect multiple pos's in a hole for the elbow room. The ship maintenance array is where we store our multiple ships. You swap in and out of ships in the maintenance array at need, simple enough. The current division set-up seems based on an expected average of seven people, which is odd and needs to be revamped, but definitely it currently allows for distinct security to be set up for seven people to have their own divisions in the corporate arrays. You can also set up multiple arrays to spread that further, with arrays being accessible by roles, and the divisions within further broken down.

Reality > Wiki.

Six months in the hole... it changes a man.
Vassal Zeren
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#45 - 2011-10-25 19:53:53 UTC
Ingvar Angst wrote:
Wu Phat wrote:
Geldorf Drakar wrote:
Ingvar Angst wrote:
Wu Phat wrote:


I don’t want something that acts like a pos. A pos does what stations lack to do other than cloning service. A pos is not meant to hold or support no more than 1 person and his/her alts industrial activities. The ship maintenance array is only used to catch ships spat out by the ship construction arrays. No different than a Moon miner pooping into a silo. In no way shape or form is a pos meat to be a primary habitable structure for Small medium or large numbers of none super capital pilots that can’t dock.


Ah, ok, thank you, that clarified things for me nicely. I now understand.

You have no idea what the hell you're talking about.



I was thinking the same thing...

Ever since POS's came out, whole corps can be found living out of them. In fact, before freighters came out, it was totally impractical for a single person to run a POS for themselves, it required a group effort to move fuel and mods and set up. Furthermore, the expenses involved were prohibitive unless you were either mining a good moon or had a bunch of folks using the POS as a ratting and mining base.



On the subject on moon mining... Bad idea. Including even a few tech moons into wormhole space would give reason to bring 0.0 blob fests to visit, which would totally wreck the wormhole lifestyle. There is enough ISK to be made without moon mining. If anything, moon mining needs to be revisited and made so that it involves more effort and is more dynamic that it is currently.



link : http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Small_Ship_Assembly_Array


(Note: To use a ship from a Ship Assembly Array a Ship Maintenance Array with enough free storage space needs to be in range that the ship can be moved there) <<< it's just a plus that you can take ships in and out of the ship maintenance array like you take stuff out of silo's. The only reason a pos even has a bubble shield is to house super's. From that the Idea fell below and got twisted to think that a pos is meant to live out of. It's only an extension for a corporation to fill a void of services that the stations they live out off fail to have, for moon mining and some sovereignty stuff.


So we get our wormhole information from experience, and you get yours from... wiki.

Fascinating.

Here's a sample of reality you can mull over. A pos can house entire corps, and those that are larger will often erect multiple pos's in a hole for the elbow room. The ship maintenance array is where we store our multiple ships. You swap in and out of ships in the maintenance array at need, simple enough. The current division set-up seems based on an expected average of seven people, which is odd and needs to be revamped, but definitely it currently allows for distinct security to be set up for seven people to have their own divisions in the corporate arrays. You can also set up multiple arrays to spread that further, with arrays being accessible by roles, and the divisions within further broken down.

Reality > Wiki.


Ok, so maybe a mobile POS in WHs isn't such a good idea. However there has got to bee some improvement over the current POS system. It's not streamline, there are so many weapons to put up and take down it takes several hours just to move one POS. It takes even longer to shoot one down. (at least without caps) offlining and unanchoring processes should at least have ques. The prosess is slow tedious, unnecessary, and is not what eve is about. It could be made so much better. how bout anchoring allow you to unanchor 1 additional mod per level. (5 mod max) This would make POS removal a million times less cumbersome.

A bad analogy is like a leaky screwdriver.
Ingvar Angst
Nasty Pope Holding Corp
#46 - 2011-10-25 19:57:14 UTC
Vassal Zeren wrote:
Ok, so maybe a mobile POS in WHs isn't such a good idea. However there has got to bee some improvement over the current POS system. It's not streamline, there are so many weapons to put up and take down it takes several hours just to move one POS. It takes even longer to shoot one down. (at least without caps) offlining and unanchoring processes should at least have ques. The prosess is slow tedious, unnecessary, and is not what eve is about. It could be made so much better. how bout anchoring allow you to unanchor 1 additional mod per level. (5 mod max) This would make POS removal a million times less cumbersome.


I'm sure that could be streamlined, but then again, setting up a pos as a residence is a big deal, it's not supposed to be a simple pack-and-go thing whenever you feel like it. Being able to queue up anchors and de-anchors, onlining or offlining, I like that idea actually. Would be nice to queue up all five gas arrays and let them go.

Six months in the hole... it changes a man.
Vassal Zeren
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#47 - 2011-10-25 20:05:58 UTC
Ingvar Angst wrote:
Vassal Zeren wrote:
Ok, so maybe a mobile POS in WHs isn't such a good idea. However there has got to bee some improvement over the current POS system. It's not streamline, there are so many weapons to put up and take down it takes several hours just to move one POS. It takes even longer to shoot one down. (at least without caps) offlining and unanchoring processes should at least have ques. The prosess is slow tedious, unnecessary, and is not what eve is about. It could be made so much better. how bout anchoring allow you to unanchor 1 additional mod per level. (5 mod max) This would make POS removal a million times less cumbersome.


I'm sure that could be streamlined, but then again, setting up a pos as a residence is a big deal, it's not supposed to be a simple pack-and-go thing whenever you feel like it. Being able to queue up anchors and de-anchors, onlining or offlining, I like that idea actually. Would be nice to queue up all five gas arrays and let them go.


Thanks for the support. I know its a big deal to move out (and it should be) but maby we could make it a big deal in a more interesting way v.s. a tedious logistical nightmare.

A bad analogy is like a leaky screwdriver.
Vassal Zeren
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#48 - 2011-10-25 20:08:46 UTC
Btw Angst what Whs do you operate in. I have done C 1-4 and am trying to see what kind of a crew I would have to put together for a 5.

A bad analogy is like a leaky screwdriver.
Geldorf Drakar
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#49 - 2011-10-25 21:52:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Geldorf Drakar
Vassal Zeren wrote:
Btw Angst what Whs do you operate in. I have done C 1-4 and am trying to see what kind of a crew I would have to put together for a 5.


The minimum for a C5 would probably be 5-10 people, active at the same time.



Quote:


I'm sure that could be streamlined, but then again, setting up a pos as a residence is a big deal, it's not supposed to be a simple pack-and-go thing whenever you feel like it. Being able to queue up anchors and de-anchors, onlining or offlining, I like that idea actually. Would be nice to queue up all five gas arrays and let them go.


There is definite room for improvement when it comes to POS mechanics. Aside from minor fixes, POS's have been essentially the same since their introduction years ago, and I suspect CCP never thought they would be deployed in such numbers as they are today.

Afaik, there are changing coming to the anchoring/onlining timers. Vast decreases for anchoring across the board, as well as online time decreases for everything but guns, EW mods, etc. That should make things far more tollerable.

Overall though, POS's could stand another look at. Having setup and maintenance be big deals should certainly be maintained as a primary feature. However, the way industry and PvP with POS works could use improvements, to include decreasing the overall number of defensive mods supportable, but seriously boosting individual mods (like weapons grouping, reduce lag).


It would also be interesting to see POS specific wormhole effects... maybe black holes increasing silo capacity? :P
Vassal Zeren
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#50 - 2011-10-25 23:52:33 UTC
Geldorf Drakar wrote:
Vassal Zeren wrote:
Btw Angst what Whs do you operate in. I have done C 1-4 and am trying to see what kind of a crew I would have to put together for a 5.


The minimum for a C5 would probably be 5-10 people, active at the same time.



Quote:


I'm sure that could be streamlined, but then again, setting up a pos as a residence is a big deal, it's not supposed to be a simple pack-and-go thing whenever you feel like it. Being able to queue up anchors and de-anchors, onlining or offlining, I like that idea actually. Would be nice to queue up all five gas arrays and let them go.


There is definite room for improvement when it comes to POS mechanics. Aside from minor fixes, POS's have been essentially the same since their introduction years ago, and I suspect CCP never thought they would be deployed in such numbers as they are today.

Afaik, there are changing coming to the anchoring/onlining timers. Vast decreases for anchoring across the board, as well as online time decreases for everything but guns, EW mods, etc. That should make things far more tollerable.

Overall though, POS's could stand another look at. Having setup and maintenance be big deals should certainly be maintained as a primary feature. However, the way industry and PvP with POS works could use improvements, to include decreasing the overall number of defensive mods supportable, but seriously boosting individual mods (like weapons grouping, reduce lag).


It would also be interesting to see POS specific wormhole effects... maybe black holes increasing silo capacity? :P



Is this true? It would help a ton if these changes came to pass. I knew there was talk of POS logistics improvement for the winter expansion but did not hear of anything concrete. This sounds cool. Pray tell. Where did you get your intel from?

A bad analogy is like a leaky screwdriver.
Covert Kitty
SRS Industries
#51 - 2011-10-26 00:24:17 UTC
Quote:
The day I'll be able to (hardly) scan some tiny belt of ice (random deplete) so I can fuel my pos without being dependant of null sec/high sec, I'll be the first one to go there.

They don't really need it, besides why the heck would I want to waste my time mining ice when I could just haul in a few months worth and spend my time doing something more productive.

Quote:
Ability to anchor POS in wh should be removed. People are not meant to live in there permanently. This will fix whs.

They are meant to live there long term, many basic mechanics wouldn't even work if you didn't have pos's. And honestly that's great. POS's and wormholes are two of the best things in EvE. It's important to have an attachment to an area and call somewhere "home", or say "we own this wormhole". Wormholes are mini sov essentially, and they are absolutely fantastic in that regard.

POS's need some love however, especially after the dread buffs the starbase defense skill is looking pretty worthless. The rights management system needs to be scrapped and replaced with a proper ACL system. A modular starbase system should be adopted so that POS's no longer look like a stick with a bunch of trash flying around it.
Geldorf Drakar
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#52 - 2011-10-26 01:33:48 UTC
Vassal Zeren wrote:
Geldorf Drakar wrote:
Vassal Zeren wrote:
Btw Angst what Whs do you operate in. I have done C 1-4 and am trying to see what kind of a crew I would have to put together for a 5.


The minimum for a C5 would probably be 5-10 people, active at the same time.



Quote:


I'm sure that could be streamlined, but then again, setting up a pos as a residence is a big deal, it's not supposed to be a simple pack-and-go thing whenever you feel like it. Being able to queue up anchors and de-anchors, onlining or offlining, I like that idea actually. Would be nice to queue up all five gas arrays and let them go.


There is definite room for improvement when it comes to POS mechanics. Aside from minor fixes, POS's have been essentially the same since their introduction years ago, and I suspect CCP never thought they would be deployed in such numbers as they are today.

Afaik, there are changing coming to the anchoring/onlining timers. Vast decreases for anchoring across the board, as well as online time decreases for everything but guns, EW mods, etc. That should make things far more tollerable.

Overall though, POS's could stand another look at. Having setup and maintenance be big deals should certainly be maintained as a primary feature. However, the way industry and PvP with POS works could use improvements, to include decreasing the overall number of defensive mods supportable, but seriously boosting individual mods (like weapons grouping, reduce lag).


It would also be interesting to see POS specific wormhole effects... maybe black holes increasing silo capacity? :P



Is this true? It would help a ton if these changes came to pass. I knew there was talk of POS logistics improvement for the winter expansion but did not hear of anything concrete. This sounds cool. Pray tell. Where did you get your intel from?



One of my m8s was on the test server a while back, they had a newer build up for a short time but reverted back to the current/old one. It had the change to the moros on it (+5% rof, or was it damage, instead of drones 20%), and it had changes to POS mods. Anchoring time was like 5-30 seconds, forget about onlining but it was drastically reduced for all but defensive systems. It would be a bad idea to make defenses onlineable quickly because it would reduced the compromise between services and defense, and CCP had recognized that.


Quote:
They are meant to live there long term, many basic mechanics wouldn't even work if you didn't have pos's. And honestly that's great. POS's and wormholes are two of the best things in EvE. It's important to have an attachment to an area and call somewhere "home", or say "we own this wormhole". Wormholes are mini sov essentially, and they are absolutely fantastic in that regard.

POS's need some love however, especially after the dread buffs the starbase defense skill is looking pretty worthless. The rights management system needs to be scrapped and replaced with a proper ACL system. A modular starbase system should be adopted so that POS's no longer look like a stick with a bunch of trash flying around it.


I'll certainly agree that POS's need to be revamped. It wouldnt be too hard to set up a modular system like they've done for T3's and it would significantly decrease graphics lag and probably server load. Access control isnt as big of a deal, if you have multiple POS's, and there are workarounds and compromises everywhere. The thing is, aside from a few extra roles, like starbase fuel tech or w/e it is called, there have been little to no progress with changing access control.

I don't think it would be too hard to integrate semi-personal, password/role/char ID protected personal hangers that are allocated a quota from the overall hanger volume capacity and are only accessible by the owning member, by password, or by director/role.
Kharylien
Masked Rider Project
#53 - 2011-10-26 03:30:22 UTC
Increasing the number of WH systems will solve one problem - how expensive T3 components are. Increase the number of systems, you'll increase the supply, as the WH residents farm more freely with less pressure to take and hold their corners of the space.

I don't see why there's a problem with people living there. There remains a substantial risk factor - wormhole assets are at risk in a way that nothing else is or will be, because POS-based storage can be destroyed, where your belongings stored in a station can't. Even people living in conquerable nullsec can sell off their goods if they lose the station, or can truck them out to unconquerable space without risk that the path home will be closed.

Let them keep their space-hovels.
Tahna Rouspel
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#54 - 2011-10-26 03:41:06 UTC
One thing I would like to see is a compact fuel cell for POS. Possibly a blueprint that uses all the current POS fuel material to build a racial Fuel Cell.

This would simplify the logistic of managing a POS. You wouldn't have to worry about all the different type of fuels, but only the fuel cells left.
Ingvar Angst
Nasty Pope Holding Corp
#55 - 2011-10-26 03:56:01 UTC
Vassal Zeren wrote:
Btw Angst what Whs do you operate in. I have done C 1-4 and am trying to see what kind of a crew I would have to put together for a 5.


Currently all cozied up in a C2, however we have an active C5 running, hop into the Talocan United public chat and feel free to ask around. Lots of good people willing to help out.

Six months in the hole... it changes a man.
Asuka Solo
I N E X T R E M I S
Tactical Narcotics Team
#56 - 2011-10-26 04:30:49 UTC
Can all the wh lovers please drop off the face of the forums for the sake of your precious immersion factor... your not supposed to be able to chat with local loving empire and null dwellers.



Eve is about Capital ships, WiS, Boobs, PI and Isk!
Vassal Zeren
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#57 - 2011-10-26 05:17:39 UTC
Ingvar Angst wrote:
Vassal Zeren wrote:
Btw Angst what Whs do you operate in. I have done C 1-4 and am trying to see what kind of a crew I would have to put together for a 5.


Currently all cozied up in a C2, however we have an active C5 running, hop into the Talocan United public chat and feel free to ask around. Lots of good people willing to help out.



Cool, thanks a lot!P

A bad analogy is like a leaky screwdriver.
Vassal Zeren
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#58 - 2011-10-26 05:21:36 UTC
Kharylien wrote:
Increasing the number of WH systems will solve one problem - how expensive T3 components are. Increase the number of systems, you'll increase the supply, as the WH residents farm more freely with less pressure to take and hold their corners of the space.

I don't see why there's a problem with people living there. There remains a substantial risk factor - wormhole assets are at risk in a way that nothing else is or will be, because POS-based storage can be destroyed, where your belongings stored in a station can't. Even people living in conquerable nullsec can sell off their goods if they lose the station, or can truck them out to unconquerable space without risk that the path home will be closed.

Let them keep their space-hovels.



Yay for space hovels! Someday maybe we will get doors for them! Yup, its pretty clear POSs need to revamped. there are so many of them abandoned too . Soon there wont be any moons left!

A bad analogy is like a leaky screwdriver.
Kaaletram Lothyrawir
Trust Brothers LLC.
The Veyr Collective
#59 - 2011-10-26 15:59:22 UTC
Vassal Zeren wrote:


... Soon there wont be any moons left!


So get a pose together and go clean them up. Its your back yard take care of it!
Ingvar Angst
Nasty Pope Holding Corp
#60 - 2011-10-26 16:05:49 UTC
Asuka Solo wrote:
Can all the wh lovers please drop off the face of the forums for the sake of your precious immersion factor... your not supposed to be able to chat with local loving empire and null dwellers.





Every now and then we need to lower ourselves and enter the lesser spaces where the local-dependent masses litter themselves in order to access the markets and acquire necessary fuels. It's a necessary evil.

Six months in the hole... it changes a man.