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Eliminating Supercapitals: Nullsec Is Worth Saving
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Andski
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#21 - 2013-03-25 20:22:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Andski
iskflakes wrote:
Some players are simply more powerful/knowledgeable/useful than others. Either they have a big shiny ship, or they have 15 accounts, or work hard to organize others. Those players are free to move to whatever team they want, and so when one team starts winning what happens? They all join, and we end up with stagnation.

Stagnation is not the end result of supercaps, it's the end result of people's ability to swap between corporations with ease and their desire to be on the winning team. Supercaps are an easy scape goat, a proxy for the real problem: Nobody likes to lose, so the best players* (and there will always be players who are better than others) will always gang up on everybody else. That's the reason random lolcorps can't get a start in nullsec.

There is no easy solution. The best we can hope for is CCP will mix up the pot and we'll have 5 years of settling down into the new equilibrium.

* If you dislike the idea that some players are inherently better than others, then go find a different game


I'm fully comfortable with the fact that some players are inherently better than others. However, it seems you're not - "abloobloobloooooo I can't use my super because somebody will bridge 50 tempests on top of me and murder me for kicks, naturally such peasants shouldn't stand a chance against me"

Twitter: @EVEAndski

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths."    - Abrazzar
Andski
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#22 - 2013-03-25 20:30:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Andski
iskflakes wrote:
The solution is to make super pilots more self dependent, and less able to be rescued if they make a bad call.

* Give supers & titans the ability to defend themselves against poorly prepared subcaps (this is the main reason they don't get used)
* Add a mass limit to cynos, this makes it harder to subcap blob a tackled super and harder to drop more supers to save some idiot tackled super (this is the reason most sov bloc supers don't die even when they are facing a very well prepared subcap fleet)
* Give supers and especially titans a 50% DPS increase, to make them worth using on structure bashes (right now people will use dreads if there's even a 1% risk, but if there's a 1% risk and a 50% faster structure kill they'll bring out their supers).


A poorly prepared subcap fleet won't manage to tackle, let alone kill, a super or titan - if they don't have neuts and dictors/hictors, they won't kill it, period. Mass limits for cynos are dumb. You have no idea what you're talking about if you think people use dreads to bash structures other than towers, since supercarriers and titans can kill a structure in less time than a dread's siege cycle and be out of there.

Don't opine on sov warfare when you're obviously clueless about it~

Twitter: @EVEAndski

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths."    - Abrazzar
Murk Paradox
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#23 - 2013-03-25 20:44:33 UTC
Eight Two wrote:
iskflakes wrote:


* The real problem with nullsec is something completely different. The HBC has more supercaps than anybody else, so what's stopping them fighting the CFC? Clearly it's not a lack of supers -- it's a lack of reward and/or vested interest in technetium.


Er... according to both side's killboards, they're pewpewing each other anyways. Maybe not on the terms you or I'd like to see but let's be honest here. Propaganda aside, it simply is a major pain in the butt to grind sov and I (hate myself for saying this) feel for the average HBC/CFC grunt that has to do it in otder to get anywhere in this stalemate.

The cards are on the table now with the next expansion. There's not going to be any rework of the sov mechancis. It's now up to the coalition leaders to figure out something to do with it. SOLAR&pets will not be able to hold out forever and then what?

It's then either having a go at each other properly or loosing pilots to boredom because quite frankly, WarGames/Thunderdome will kill it for a lot of people. There is no point and no thrill in shooting inanimate sov objects and there is no point and thrill in showing up to prearranged fights, with prearranged doctrines and probably prearranged outcomes to keep the enlisted happy.

It's the nullsec version of everyone gets a cookie. Don't forget though that the days of coaltions held together by friendships are long gone, these are entities created out of strategic necessity above anything else.

Give people a cookie and they want to keep it and they will come for more (especially when there's the internet spaceship version of cutting throats involved) - it's the way we work.

Yes, resources - or much rather concentrating the important ones in one area - are a problem too and yes the force projection that will kick any newbros in the nuts with DDs and fighterbombers while being insulted in local is a problem as well. However these are problems from to long of a period of peace&blue rainbows, CSM inbreed and getting fat and lazy on the riches of moon goo.

The one thing that can fix nullsec faster than anything else is nullsec themselves, period. Offline everything and have a go at each other in a massive free-for-all armageddon. Sort out the new order on the ashes of the old trash later.

Quote:
**** was too much work, it wasn’t fun anymore. We had friends for strategic reasons not because we actually liked them. Internal politics was ****. Running a space empire was ****. Being on call for EVE 23/7 was ****


CCP will have to step up their game eventually but again, the cards are on the table. It's not gonna be this summer. Hats off to anyone who is willing to stick out another year of boredom at the minimum.



Sounds a bit like you don't like working for a specific employer anymore and think it's up to your boss to change your job description.

This post has been signed by Murk Paradox and no other accounts, alternate or otherwise. Any other post claiming to be this holder's is subject to being banned at the discretion of the GM Team as it would violate the TOS in regards to impersonation. Signed, Murk Paradox. In triplicate.
Murk Paradox
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#24 - 2013-03-25 20:47:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Murk Paradox
Imiarr Timshae wrote:
Mord Fiddle wrote:

http://fiddlersedge.blogspot.com/2013/03/nullsec-is-worth-saving.html#comment-form


Link to a blog where there is a link to a blog.

Is there any content in this thread or is it just a daisy chain?



Yo dawg I heard you like blogging, so I linked a blog in your blog so you can read a blog while you blog.

This post has been signed by Murk Paradox and no other accounts, alternate or otherwise. Any other post claiming to be this holder's is subject to being banned at the discretion of the GM Team as it would violate the TOS in regards to impersonation. Signed, Murk Paradox. In triplicate.
iskflakes
#25 - 2013-03-25 21:01:30 UTC
Andski wrote:
I'm fully comfortable with the fact that some players are inherently better than others. However, it seems you're not - "abloobloobloooooo I can't use my super because somebody will bridge 50 tempests on top of me and murder me for kicks, naturally such peasants shouldn't stand a chance against me"


A well prepared subcap fleet should always win. Right now they don't. Supers bail each other out when they get in trouble, and that's one of the things that has to stop. If you just remove this safety net, people (in large coalitions) will just use supers even less. Offer the super pilots more ability to defend themselves against a poorly prepared gang, in exchange for not getting support from their supercap buddies when they get in trouble. I think that's a trade super pilots will take, and it will mean more dead supers and more opportunity for super pilots to drop on drake fleets (providing a challenging fight for everybody). What's not to like?

-
Caldari Citizen 1897289768188
HOW to PEG SAFETY
#26 - 2013-03-25 21:11:07 UTC
Be prepared for the flood of trolls from those in null and their pets as they try to get the thread locked. The article hits the nail on the head. I live in null and with the exception for the rare roam it is boaring. I refuse to do as most and create a alt just to gank hi-sec people.

We just sit and keep pumping the moon goo day in day out 23/7.
Caldari Citizen 1897289768188
HOW to PEG SAFETY
#27 - 2013-03-25 21:12:39 UTC
Murk Paradox wrote:
Eight Two wrote:
iskflakes wrote:


* The real problem with nullsec is something completely different. The HBC has more supercaps than anybody else, so what's stopping them fighting the CFC? Clearly it's not a lack of supers -- it's a lack of reward and/or vested interest in technetium.


Er... according to both side's killboards, they're pewpewing each other anyways. Maybe not on the terms you or I'd like to see but let's be honest here. Propaganda aside, it simply is a major pain in the butt to grind sov and I (hate myself for saying this) feel for the average HBC/CFC grunt that has to do it in otder to get anywhere in this stalemate.

The cards are on the table now with the next expansion. There's not going to be any rework of the sov mechancis. It's now up to the coalition leaders to figure out something to do with it. SOLAR&pets will not be able to hold out forever and then what?

It's then either having a go at each other properly or loosing pilots to boredom because quite frankly, WarGames/Thunderdome will kill it for a lot of people. There is no point and no thrill in shooting inanimate sov objects and there is no point and thrill in showing up to prearranged fights, with prearranged doctrines and probably prearranged outcomes to keep the enlisted happy.

It's the nullsec version of everyone gets a cookie. Don't forget though that the days of coaltions held together by friendships are long gone, these are entities created out of strategic necessity above anything else.

Give people a cookie and they want to keep it and they will come for more (especially when there's the internet spaceship version of cutting throats involved) - it's the way we work.

Yes, resources - or much rather concentrating the important ones in one area - are a problem too and yes the force projection that will kick any newbros in the nuts with DDs and fighterbombers while being insulted in local is a problem as well. However these are problems from to long of a period of peace&blue rainbows, CSM inbreed and getting fat and lazy on the riches of moon goo.

The one thing that can fix nullsec faster than anything else is nullsec themselves, period. Offline everything and have a go at each other in a massive free-for-all armageddon. Sort out the new order on the ashes of the old trash later.

Quote:
**** was too much work, it wasn’t fun anymore. We had friends for strategic reasons not because we actually liked them. Internal politics was ****. Running a space empire was ****. Being on call for EVE 23/7 was ****


CCP will have to step up their game eventually but again, the cards are on the table. It's not gonna be this summer. Hats off to anyone who is willing to stick out another year of boredom at the minimum.



Sounds a bit like you don't like working for a specific employer anymore and think it's up to your boss to change your job description.


Seemed spot on to me.
Caldari Citizen 1897289768188
HOW to PEG SAFETY
#28 - 2013-03-25 21:18:19 UTC
Andski wrote:
iskflakes wrote:
The solution is to make super pilots more self dependent, and less able to be rescued if they make a bad call.

* Give supers & titans the ability to defend themselves against poorly prepared subcaps (this is the main reason they don't get used)
* Add a mass limit to cynos, this makes it harder to subcap blob a tackled super and harder to drop more supers to save some idiot tackled super (this is the reason most sov bloc supers don't die even when they are facing a very well prepared subcap fleet)
* Give supers and especially titans a 50% DPS increase, to make them worth using on structure bashes (right now people will use dreads if there's even a 1% risk, but if there's a 1% risk and a 50% faster structure kill they'll bring out their supers).


A poorly prepared subcap fleet won't manage to tackle, let alone kill, a super or titan - if they don't have neuts and dictors/hictors, they won't kill it, period. Mass limits for cynos are dumb. You have no idea what you're talking about if you think people use dreads to bash structures other than towers, since supercarriers and titans can kill a structure in less time than a dread's siege cycle and be out of there.

Don't opine on sov warfare when you're obviously clueless about it~



Why would you assume they are poorly prepared? I think the safety nets needs to be removed. Many times fleets wont engage for fear of the blob.
Felicity Love
Doomheim
#29 - 2013-03-25 21:26:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Felicity Love
Hey, I like the idea of NullSec as a themepark... I mean, with TiDi you hardly notice the long lineups anymore. And there's plenty of toons dressed in crazy costumes masquerading as something cute and cuddly, it's magical ! Roll

"EVE is dying." -- The Four Forum Trolls of the Apocalypse.   ( Pick four, any four. They all smell.  )
Andski
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#30 - 2013-03-25 21:38:56 UTC
iskflakes wrote:
A well prepared subcap fleet should always win. Right now they don't. Supers bail each other out when they get in trouble, and that's one of the things that has to stop. If you just remove this safety net, people (in large coalitions) will just use supers even less. Offer the super pilots more ability to defend themselves against a poorly prepared gang, in exchange for not getting support from their supercap buddies when they get in trouble. I think that's a trade super pilots will take, and it will mean more dead supers and more opportunity for super pilots to drop on drake fleets (providing a challenging fight for everybody). What's not to like?


This "safety net" crap is just that, crap. A ball of 30 Tempests will neut you dry in a minute flat and kill you in short order after that, even quicker now since active hardeners no longer have a passive resist bonus. Any fleet that tries to bail you out would have to get there within a few minutes, otherwise you're boned.

Twitter: @EVEAndski

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths."    - Abrazzar
Tau Cabalander
Retirement Retreat
Working Stiffs
#31 - 2013-03-25 21:48:00 UTC
I don't think supers are the problem rather the current sov system is the problem, as it leads to long and boring sov grinds that everyone wants to avoid, so they'd rather agree to a non-aggression pact (NAP) and stage wargames than deal with sov.

Plus once you have your steady income from your moons, and your systems upgraded, there is little incentive to fight. Especially if you have to travel far to find someone you are not blue to.

I also think sov needs to change to remove strategic claims of unused space. An incentive for smaller entities to move in and use the space too. One of the reasons why w-space is so full is because of the relative protection it provides to smaller entities.
Primary This Rifter
Mutual Fund of the Something
#32 - 2013-03-26 01:51:05 UTC
Caldari Citizen 1897289768188 wrote:
Be prepared for the flood of trolls from those in null and their pets as they try to get the thread locked. The article hits the nail on the head. I live in null and with the exception for the rare roam it is boaring. I refuse to do as most and create a alt just to gank hi-sec people.

We just sit and keep pumping the moon goo day in day out 23/7.

I don't have an alt to gank highseccers. That's not something I'm interested in. And yet I don't find null boring at all.
Eight Two
SWIFT Inc.
#33 - 2013-03-26 04:17:19 UTC
Murk Paradox wrote:



Sounds a bit like you don't like working for a specific employer anymore and think it's up to your boss to change your job description.


Who I've worked for in the past is irrelevant really, there's a lot of former nullsec players moving on to greener pastures for the reasons I stated. I have changed my job myself simply by refusing to participate.

Yes, CCP has work at their hands and according to this they are aware of the issues.

In the meantime it's up to the players that have driven this game for years to get that spirit back or fall and crumble under their own weight. That's the way things go always have and always will go. ~ Consequences ~
Grath Telkin
Amok.
Goonswarm Federation
#34 - 2013-03-26 06:41:21 UTC
Haha, DNS didn't do anything in nullsec before the rise of the supercapital (or ever for that matter) so what on earth makes him think any change to 0.0 will make his alliance more capable than it is?

Nothing, he's simply another guy who wants a game mechanic change to do something he is unwilling to do on his own.

Malcanis - Without drone assign, the slowcat doctrine will wither and die.
Prince Kobol
#35 - 2013-03-26 10:56:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Prince Kobol
I would make a couple of changes, one which is simple, then other is a lot more difficult.

First I would introduce a capital version the warp disrupter.

This version would only fit on capital ships allow capitals to warp disrupter each other.

Pretty sure this would lead to a more caps going boom which would be a good thing Big smile

In fact if this mod existed I am damn sure that a hell of a lot more caps would of died in Asakai

The second thing a hell of a lot more complicated.

Most people who build Titans + Sup Caps important most if not all of the materials needed from HS, This is wrong on so many levels.

However to stop people from doing this you need to fix industry in null sec.

Buff to manufacturing in player built stations, more low end ores, in fact a lot more low end ores need to be available.

I would also make it harder for them to built as well, as in before you install the ihub upgrade that allows you to build sup caps and a titans, you would require strategic and industry at level 5.

Strategic isn't so hard ( pretty sure most space held by goons would be at lvl 5 by now) but getting Indy to level 5 is very painful and anybody who is prepared to do that deserves to be able to sup caps and titans Big smile
Asmodai Xodai
#36 - 2013-03-26 11:16:47 UTC
Dumb to blame supercapitals. Even dumber to lobby for their elimination.

However, besides that oversight, I applaud creative thinking and problem solving and desire to make the game better. Just go back to the drawing board as far as pointing out the problem and working out a better solution.
Princess Saskia
Hyperfleet Industries
#37 - 2013-03-26 11:19:57 UTC
Wrong forum section.

 ♥ 
LittleTerror
Stygian Systems
#38 - 2013-03-26 11:29:09 UTC
This Disney park crap has being going on for too long, it has caused mass inflation and that has made almost every highsec isk making activity a worthless grind. So that is forcing more and more players to pay rent to sov holding alliances to make their mountains of isk in nullsec. I don't think that getting more players into nullsec is a bad idea but forcing people into nullsec is what could ultimately break and then kill this game...

The players I play eve with are mostly very new players, and they don't feel ready to live in nullsec, I might be fine with living in null but most new players aren't, they don't feel ready and if you try to force them, they will simple quit the game.


My solution for highsec would be to make it more rewarding but with a lot more risk, that means no more easy lvl 4 missions, make those missions include some player vs player element, make them pay a lot more with the added risk of losing a ship. I could list many other ways to allow newer players in highsec enjoy the game more and learn more about living in nullsec while doing it but I don't want to ramble on.

Nullsec I don't have a clue how that should be fixed because its not even the root the cause, the moon problem? Erm no, the moons are positioned in such a way that people have to fight to control them, its not nullsec that needs fixing, its the players. Right now its a lot easier for smaller corps and alliances to rent from a bigger alliance that holds and rents out space, than it is for those smaller newer corps to band together and kick the living **** out those oppressive greedy alliances...
Mord Fiddle
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#39 - 2013-03-26 12:36:30 UTC
Grath Telkin wrote:
Haha, DNS didn't do anything in nullsec before the rise of the supercapital (or ever for that matter) so what on earth makes him think any change to 0.0 will make his alliance more capable than it is?

Nothing, he's simply another guy who wants a game mechanic change to do something he is unwilling to do on his own.


Says the guy running the teacups ride at nullsecDisney
Mocam
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#40 - 2013-03-26 12:48:38 UTC
Andski wrote:
iskflakes wrote:
Andski wrote:
so you don't actually have any clue what you're talking about

I see


How's the technetium over there?


let's not try to steer the topic away from "i'm wrong" because well you think that subcaps are immune to supercaps and that supercaps aren't concentrated in the hands of the few when given the numbers available (1-2k titans, 3-4k supercarriers, 500k active accounts) we can figure that only 1% of players own supercaps, and it doesn't help that players who do get supercaps tend to join whatever entity is the flavor of the month

this was the case before dominion, after dominion, before crucible, after crucible, before the titan tracking nerf, after the titan tracking nerf and before and after whatever stupid buffs you want made to supercaps.

you also think that having more supercaps than the other guy guarantees success when it doesn't (if it did, clearly supercaps are fine, right?)

anyway removing supercaps is just as dumb as buffing them again


I really hate your post.. Why? Because I agree with it. I really friggn hate it when that happens.