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AFK Cloaking Collection Thread

First post First post
Author
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
#4041 - 2013-12-19 19:35:11 UTC
Alvatore DiMarco wrote:
Null PvErs are ratters. They just happen to do their ratting in anoms instead of belts.

By your own definition, you are scum of the earth and should purposely be given a penalty.
So much wrongness.
1. I guess you just skipped over the word "AFK" in my definition. And yes and AFK null PVE players are also sum, but luckily their stupidity gets them killed pretty quick.
2. While anoms are some of the PVE, most of the important null PVE (the parts critical to existence in null) are mining and manufacture. Titans, stations, and even the thousands of subcaps we chew through would not be possible without it.
3. I don't "PVE" in either way these days, I am a trader, so when I'm in space it's usually to do PI or haul. So even if point 1 was not incorrect, I'd still not be a PVE player, thus not scum.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.

Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
#4042 - 2013-12-19 19:39:48 UTC
I'm pretty sure mining and manufacturing do not count as PvE.

How do you AFK rat, anyway?
Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
#4043 - 2013-12-19 19:46:26 UTC
These are the kind of people who cloak campers look for. The easy meat that won't run away in time or defend themselves properly. You've stated that you despise them, but you're in this thread saying they should be protected from cloakers.

How very curious.
Kenpo
The Guardians of the Beam
#4044 - 2013-12-19 19:47:49 UTC
Alvatore DiMarco wrote:
I'm pretty sure mining and manufacturing do not count as PvE.

How do you AFK rat, anyway?


Simple, you sit in a station AFK and you have someone pay you for the privelage of ratting in your system Lol

Caution, rubber gloves and faceshield required when handling this equipment.

Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
#4045 - 2013-12-19 19:51:20 UTC
Alvatore DiMarco wrote:
These are the kind of people who cloak campers look for. The easy meat that won't run away in time or defend themselves properly. You've stated that you despise them, but you're in this thread saying they should be protected from cloakers.

How very curious.
Uhhh really not. Sorry, but have you read the thread?
AFK cloakers, as people keep telling us, do not kill anyone. I want them removed because they deny game content for no real reason other than because they can, and they don't need to put in any effort to do it. They make systems effectively unusable, so they cut down the amount of null space in use by actual players. Removing them has nothing to do with safety.

The PVE discussion is happening because this thread is no longer about AFK cloaking, it's about local intel. Some people want it removed and are either blind to or don't care about the larger scale effects those changes would have on nullsec. Some people seem to think that a handful of PVE players in ventures would still keep titans being build, and that renters would continue to pay for space they had no ability to defend from a solo cloaker.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.

Notorious Fellon
#4046 - 2013-12-19 19:52:34 UTC
You are all bent out of shape over players using drones in anoms that are so low they pose no threat to the drones or an AFK ship?

Anyone can make more AFK (while logged off entirely) doing PI or Research.

What an odd thing to be concerned about.

Crime, it is not a "career", it is a lifestyle.

Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
#4047 - 2013-12-19 20:00:34 UTC
Notorious Fellon wrote:
You are all bent out of shape over players using drones in anoms that are so low they pose no threat to the drones or an AFK ship?

Anyone can make more AFK (while logged off entirely) doing PI or Research.

What an odd thing to be concerned about.
lol, I'm not bent out of shape, I just don't think it's a good thing to encourage. Mostly it's AFK miners and cloakers though to be fair. I was there at the end of diaspora man! I've seen thing's man! I wouldn't recommend it!

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.

Kenpo
The Guardians of the Beam
#4048 - 2013-12-19 20:42:04 UTC
Lucas Kell wrote:
they deny game content for no real reason other than because they can, and they don't need to put in any effort to do it. They make systems effectively unusable, so they cut down the amount of null space in use by actual players.


This part of your arguement is pure fallacy, the only person who can deny you content is you.

Caution, rubber gloves and faceshield required when handling this equipment.

ISD Tyrozan
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
#4049 - 2013-12-19 20:44:25 UTC
A personal attack post has been removed.

Forum rule 4. Personal attacks are prohibited.

ISD Tyrozan

Captain

Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs)

Interstellar Services Department

@ISDTyrozan | @ISD_CCL

Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
#4050 - 2013-12-19 21:14:10 UTC
Lucas Kell wrote:
Alvatore DiMarco wrote:
These are the kind of people who cloak campers look for. The easy meat that won't run away in time or defend themselves properly. You've stated that you despise them, but you're in this thread saying they should be protected from cloakers.

How very curious.
Uhhh really not. Sorry, but have you read the thread?
AFK cloakers, as people keep telling us, do not kill anyone. I want them removed because they deny game content for no real reason other than because they can, and they don't need to put in any effort to do it. They make systems effectively unusable, so they cut down the amount of null space in use by actual players. Removing them has nothing to do with safety.

The PVE discussion is happening because this thread is no longer about AFK cloaking, it's about local intel. Some people want it removed and are either blind to or don't care about the larger scale effects those changes would have on nullsec. Some people seem to think that a handful of PVE players in ventures would still keep titans being build, and that renters would continue to pay for space they had no ability to defend from a solo cloaker.


Sorry, but did you actually read my post? I said "cloak campers", not "AFK cloakers".

AFK cloakers don't hunt anyone. Cloak campers do hunt people and then stop being cloakers when they're ready to make the kill.
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
#4051 - 2013-12-19 21:19:22 UTC
Alvatore DiMarco wrote:
Lucas Kell wrote:
Alvatore DiMarco wrote:
These are the kind of people who cloak campers look for. The easy meat that won't run away in time or defend themselves properly. You've stated that you despise them, but you're in this thread saying they should be protected from cloakers.

How very curious.
Uhhh really not. Sorry, but have you read the thread?
AFK cloakers, as people keep telling us, do not kill anyone. I want them removed because they deny game content for no real reason other than because they can, and they don't need to put in any effort to do it. They make systems effectively unusable, so they cut down the amount of null space in use by actual players. Removing them has nothing to do with safety.

The PVE discussion is happening because this thread is no longer about AFK cloaking, it's about local intel. Some people want it removed and are either blind to or don't care about the larger scale effects those changes would have on nullsec. Some people seem to think that a handful of PVE players in ventures would still keep titans being build, and that renters would continue to pay for space they had no ability to defend from a solo cloaker.


Sorry, but did you actually read my post? I said "cloak campers", not "AFK cloakers".

AFK cloakers don't hunt anyone. Cloak campers do hunt people and then stop being cloakers when they're ready to make the kill.
OK, so where have I stated I hate cloakers? I don't want any cloak mechanics changed, or anything changed that would affect an active cloaker...

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.

ISD Ezwal
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
#4052 - 2013-12-20 21:04:24 UTC
I have removed some rule breaking posts and those quoting them. This time I let a lot of edge cases stay.
Please people, keep it on topic and above all civil!

The rules:
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The purpose of the EVE Online forums is to provide a platform for exchange of ideas, and a venue for the discussion of EVE Online. Occasionally there will be conflicts that arise when people voice opinions. Forum users are expected to be courteous when disagreeing with others.


4. Personal attacks are prohibited.

Commonly known as flaming, personal attacks are posts that are designed to personally berate or insult another forum user. Posts of this nature are not beneficial to the community spirit that CCP promote and as such they will not be tolerated.


26. Off-topic posting is prohibited.

Off-topic posting is permitted within reason, as sometimes a single comment may color or lighten the tone of discussion. However, excessive posting of off-topic remarks in an attempt to derail a thread may result in the thread being locked, or a forum warning being issued.

ISD Ezwal Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs)

Andy Landen
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#4053 - 2013-12-20 21:22:56 UTC
Every post I have made and every reply quoting those posts plus several pages of content seem to have magically disappeared. I am sure many others are seeing the same thing. It is clear that objective discussion on the matter of AFK cloaking is not allowed on these forums at this time. A review of the discussion moderation procedures is required for productive forum discussions to continue, because those posts were all essential to proper consideration of AFK cloaking. Who cares about a cloaky without a cyno? So cyno discussion is related. etc. Let me know when this mess is sorted and those posts are re-reviewed and undeleted.

"We cannot solve our problems with the same thinking we used when we created them." Albert Einstein 

Astroniomix
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#4054 - 2013-12-20 21:33:28 UTC
Andy Landen wrote:
Every post I have made and every reply quoting those posts plus several pages of content seem to have magically disappeared. I am sure many others are seeing the same thing. It is clear that objective discussion on the matter of AFK cloaking is not allowed on these forums at this time. A review of the discussion moderation procedures is required for productive forum discussions to continue, because those posts were all essential to proper consideration of AFK cloaking. Who cares about a cloaky without a cyno? So cyno discussion is related. etc. Let me know when this mess is sorted and those posts are re-reviewed and undeleted.

The posts are all still archived, even the ISDs can't get a hold of those.
Andy Landen
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#4055 - 2013-12-20 21:45:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Andy Landen
Astroniomix wrote:
Andy Landen wrote:
Every post I have made and every reply quoting those posts plus several pages of content seem to have magically disappeared. I am sure many others are seeing the same thing. It is clear that objective discussion on the matter of AFK cloaking is not allowed on these forums at this time. A review of the discussion moderation procedures is required for productive forum discussions to continue, because those posts were all essential to proper consideration of AFK cloaking. Who cares about a cloaky without a cyno? So cyno discussion is related. etc. Let me know when this mess is sorted and those posts are re-reviewed and undeleted.

The posts are all still archived, even the ISDs can't get a hold of those.

Great point! In eve-search? That is somewhat useful, even if it is rather inconvenient to use as a basis for a discussion, and impossible to use if continued posts on the "off-topic" subjects (which are really vitally connected) yield more deletes and then bans.

Added: It seems that Eve-search does not have any of the posts regarding my three questions either and only had the first few sentences here in the short description: A) What are the chances of a PVE ship surviving a hotdrop from said cloaked threat? B) What is the price difference between the cloaked ship and the typical PVE ship being caught? C) What are the chanc...

Such a shame to lose so much from questions that were most decidedly on topic and respectful. I guess we'll just have to wait and see if the request for review and undeletion is approved or ignored.

Wait, I found something now from eve-search. Perhaps it takes a while for newer content to become available from them. Has a funny purple line under some posts that were deleted. http://eve-search.com/thread/216699-1/page/139 And I now see a deleted post by Teckos on the questions right below this post.

"We cannot solve our problems with the same thinking we used when we created them." Albert Einstein 

Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#4056 - 2013-12-20 21:56:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Teckos Pech
Andy Landen wrote:
Nikk Narrel wrote:
...
In the context of this thread, balance can be determined by comparative effort.
It is not possible for a cloaked threat to reliably intercept a PvE pilot. This is a fact.
It is not possible to reliably locate and remove a cloaked ship. This is also a fact....

So you like facts, you like accuracy, and you like balance. So let's have a few comparative facts answered truthfully and accurately.

A) What are the chances of a PVE ship surviving a hotdrop from said cloaked threat?
B) What is the price difference between the cloaked ship and the typical PVE ship being caught?
C) What are the chances that the PVE player will be given the opportunity to suddenly appear within 2500m of a cloaked ship in their own pvp ship and instantly lock and point it with a cyno lit?

Go ahead and be as honest as you can about those questions and we might have a chance to start seeing what balance really looks like. Might as well open this up to anyone who dares take on these questions with highly accurate answers.

PS: And Astro, you have no case. Comment when you have something insightful to say. Quoting a few isolated lines does nothing for your case. I see them and they are perfectly fine as is. OK, perhaps I need to define ad hominem for you: making a person look bad so that his argument is dismissed. I don't do that. I am always about the facts. And even then, these days, I turn down discussions of inconsistencies of stated motives so as to avoid causing offense.


A) Any ship once tackled is in real trouble whether or not there is a cyno. This is because players in null usually tend to work together when PvPing while the PvE pilots do not. Also, the PvP pilots don't usually do "fair". PvP in null is unfair, brutal and fast. In short, if you get tackled you are probably dead.

B) No idea and you have none either. Only CCP could answer that kind of a question. Null PvPers will kill anything they can get a lock on including noob ships.

C) First off he wouldn't be a PvE player at that point anymore would he. And it depends on a number of previous factors you skip...like you always do. Here is one of the biggest factors:

What is the chance a cloaked ship entering system has of catching the PvE ship?

Don't worry its rhetorical (i.e. I'll answer it for you since getting a straight answer is pretty damn hard from you lot). The chances are extremely low. Well below 5%, and probably below 1%. If we go with 2% and we look at 100 instances of where a hostile comes into your ratting system, chances of one or more ganks occurring, about 59.7%. In those 100 trials your expected loss with a billion isk ship is 600 million isk. Now, the question is how much ratting could you have gotten done in that time period? Probably more that 600 million isk worth. If a hostile comes through say 1/hour then that is around 100 hours of ratting and if you clear 40 million an hour, then you are looking at 40,000,000*100 = 4,000,000,000 for an expected loss of 600 million. Not bad at all.

Of course, an AFK cloaker changes all of that. Now you don't know if he is active or not. Most likely not, but if he is and you start ratting, then he'll have a much easier time sneaking up on you. The guy entering system, you know he is active and you have a few seconds advanced warning before he can even align out. But with the "AFK" cloaker he could be within 5,000 meters before you know he is there and that is probably way, way too late (note the quotes around "AFK" it is to signify the uncertainty as to the player's actual status). The above calculus no longer works in this case. You have no way of coming up with probabilities as to whether or not the player is AFK or not except for subjective ones based on your own experience. When in a state of ignorance one possible starting point is what (Bayesian) statisticians call an uninformative prior probability. Now in this case you'd assign a 0.5 chance the pilot is not AFK. Now if you have 100 trials, your chances of 1 or more ganks is essentially 1--i.e. 100%. In fact, your chances of 40 or more ganks, assuming you undock, is still pretty high about 97%. So staying docked (if that is the only system you can rat in) is sensible.

So AFK cloaking basically is a way of throwing some sand into the gears for the PvE pilot. By doing it you take a guy who would over a period of time make a few billion isk to making...nothing. Is it content denial? Yeah, it is if you limit yourself just to PvE...that is the point...resource denial....denial. Keeping someone from something. Is it bad for the game? I don't think so, this is a sandbox game where the emphasis is on emergent game play--i.e. players working within the game structure to come up with ways to do various things. In this case, it is to cause damage to an enemy indirectly. Totally and 100% valid.

Also, there is a game balance issue here. Remember all that discussion about inflation? Remove AFK cloaking alone and you will have a higher rate of inflation, 100%. Absolutely no doubt. At all. So, if inflation really is near and dear to Andy's heart simply removing AFK cloaking with no other check on PvE income via rat bounties....bad thing.

So, no changes to local...no changes to AFK cloaking. And to be abso-freaking-lutely clear here an AFK tag...that is a mother freaking buff to local. So, no to the freaking AFK tag no matter how it works. And no to a freaking log off timer either unless you address the game balance issue above. If you can't...then buzz off.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online

Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#4057 - 2013-12-20 22:25:03 UTC
Thank you, Andy, for this opportunity.

If you had been an attractive female, I might have considered kissing you for this.
Andy Landen wrote:
Nikk Narrel wrote:
...
In the context of this thread, balance can be determined by comparative effort.
It is not possible for a cloaked threat to reliably intercept a PvE pilot. This is a fact.
It is not possible to reliably locate and remove a cloaked ship. This is also a fact....

So you like facts, you like accuracy, and you like balance. So let's have a few comparative facts answered truthfully and accurately.

A) What are the chances of a PVE ship surviving a hotdrop from said cloaked threat?
B) What is the price difference between the cloaked ship and the typical PVE ship being caught?
C) What are the chances that the PVE player will be given the opportunity to suddenly appear within 2500m of a cloaked ship in their own pvp ship and instantly lock and point it with a cyno lit?

Go ahead and be as honest as you can about those questions and we might have a chance to start seeing what balance really looks like. Might as well open this up to anyone who dares take on these questions with highly accurate answers.


Point A: It is easy to survive hot drops which never occur, or never catch you.
Explanation: A PvE ship, by definition, is any ship engaging in PvE, often fitted to enhance returns in this context. As returns are enhanced by either quantity or quality, then the ship must focus on one or both of these aspects.
For quality, there is little control. You can go where there is better ore / rats, or you can compensate with quantity.
A hot drop, is a threat to quantity, as your ratting / mining will end if you no longer have a ship. You are well advised to use proactive measures as part of your tactical and fitting to make yourself a combination of difficult and undesirable.

Point B: That depends on circumstances, and is not a simple black and white answer either.
Explanation: Even if we limit ourselves to null sec with respect to context, there is still a significant element showing that hot drops won't happen for targets "not worth the effort". You line up a T1 barge or T1 BC, with only T1 or T2 fittings, and only attacks of strategic intent often remain. (They simply want to kill your group or targets in your area, a 'not-for-profit' offensive)
Depending on your skills and fittings, the price of the ship in question is possibly similar on both sides.

Point C: Unlikely, but infinitely more probable than a cloaked ship pushing the eject button on a POS or outpost, and having their target spit out like a cosmic vending machine.
Explanation: it has been well documented in this thread alone, that the defenses of both cloaked and PvE assets are good enough to produce a stalemate effect. Noone is likely to overcome either, in that context, making this question seem rhetorical.

These are intended as honest and direct answers, not talking points or dogma.
I also took the liberty of expanding the scope when it became apparent that a question implied limits to an answer which would have resulted in less than a complete truth. You asked for honesty, so this was required.

Again, thank you for asking, I hope this moves us forward with productive discourse.
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#4058 - 2013-12-20 22:26:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Teckos Pech
Let me also explain the inflation comment above, thanks to Eve Search I see some had some issue with this.....

Basically, inflation occurs when the growth rate of money in an economy is faster than the growth rate of real goods and services (I hope I don't have to explain the elementary concept of real goods and services...oh heck....these are actual goods and services. A car is a real good.) Oh, and it was Andy that found that awesome quote attributed to Mankiw, Abel and Bernanke (definitely experts on macro economics and monetary theory to be sure).

Now, suppose we come up with a way to remove AFK cloaking but do nothing to add additional constraints on ratting. Income from bounties will go up. This is an extremely reasonable inference given that no more AFK cloaking means ratters can actually spend more time ratting and earning more isk via bounties. That isk via bounties means there is now an increase growth rate of isk in the game. Now going back to the statement, inflation is a result of having a growth rate of money faster than the growth rate of real goods and service, we can see that if the New Eden economy already has a positive rate of inflation removing AFK cloaking will absolutely have to result in more inflation due to the higher isk incomes from ratting bounties.

To the extent that CCP and players care about the inflation rate, AFK cloaking is something that keeps the inflation rate lower than it otherwise would be.

For this to not be the case, AFK cloaking has to result in absolutely no disruption of ratting at all. If this is true, then why are we going on about AFK cloaking if it has zero impact on people's ratting. Instead we see people going on and on on these forums with thread after thread about the horribleness of AFK cloaking.

So the answer has to be: no AFK cloaking ----> higher rate of inflation. With out any doubt what so ever. Otherwise the is zero problems with AFK cloaking. Everyone who complains about it, has complained about it or will complain about is is a liar...because it if it does not increase the rate of inflation, it must not be denying content or reducing ratting incomes.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online

Andy Landen
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#4059 - 2013-12-20 23:06:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Andy Landen
Teckos Pech wrote:
.....
Basically, inflation occurs when the growth rate of money in an economy is faster than the growth rate of real goods and services (I hope I don't have to explain the elementary concept of real goods and services...oh heck....these are actual goods and services. A car is a real good.) Oh, and it was Andy that found that awesome quote attributed to Mankiw, Abel and Bernanke (definitely experts on macro economics and monetary theory to be sure).
...
To the extent that CCP and players care about the inflation rate, AFK cloaking is something that keeps the inflation rate lower than it otherwise would be.
...

Teckos, as we discussed before, increasing the goods decreases the effect of money supply increase on inflation. Salvaging and looting adds real virtual goods and are directly connected to ratting. Mining, which I call PVE because it is not pvp, increases goods without any connection to the money supply changes. When ratting resumes in a system (assuming it did not relocate yet) so also does mining, usually. The increase in ore goods also compensates for the increase in money supply due to additional ratting.

To be fair, since relocation is typically preferred to inactivity, afk cloaking may not have as much effect as we might think, and therefore the lack of any "influence" it may have on reducing the increase in money supply may not have as much affect on inflation either.

And lastly, incursions and wormhole activities continuing despite AFK cloaking dominate any inflation so that any reductions in AFK cloaking will not influence those activities or their effects on inflation. If three faucets pour into the inflation bucket, but the first one is only a trickle, then turning that one off or down will not have much affect. Most people agree that the real wealth is in wormholes and incursions.

Hey look, I found my post on your replies to my three comparison questions: http://eve-search.com/thread/216699-1/page/139#4169

"We cannot solve our problems with the same thinking we used when we created them." Albert Einstein 

Astroniomix
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#4060 - 2013-12-20 23:14:49 UTC
Andy Landen wrote:
Salvaging and looting adds real virtual goods and are directly connected to ratting.

But not at anwhere near the rate that it injects raw isk into the system.