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Should Ganking be profitable?

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Arduemont
Rotten Legion
#61 - 2013-03-19 14:36:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Arduemont
HollyShocker 2inthestink wrote:
Dev soundwave wrote.

"Yeah my point is that I don't think they should be profitable to gank. I think it should be possible, but not necessarily profitable (profitable might be the wrong word, but more that the expenses should be higher for the attacker than the defender)."

What is everyones opinion?


Ganking should be profitable in extreme circumstances and with a lot of organization. Ganking miners does not require organization and it does not require any skill, so what people traditionally view as ganking shouldn't ever be profitable. Hell, even if it's nor profitable it wont stop people doing it. If you have to scan ships for long periods and do your research and then group a large fleet together to achieve a profit, then that's fine. You deserve your ISK. Find a hulk in a belt using faction mods? Fine, that should be profitable.

But you shouldn't be able to just fly to a belt, start shooting, and then profit. Effort to reward ratio and all that. If it doesn't require any effort, you shouldn't be getting paid for it.

"In the age of information, ignorance is a choice." www.stateofwar.co.nf
highonpop
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#62 - 2013-03-19 14:38:49 UTC
I think its cool the way it is.

If you are ganking for profit, it takes a bit of planning and know-how. It takes Logistics and People to do it right.


If Jeo-Shmoe was able to get in his rifter and go out ganking for profit, there would be a problem. As it stands now, you need several BC's ganking a freighter full of loot or a Mission runner Loot Pinata to be profitable... As it should be..

FC, what do?
Runeme Shilter
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#63 - 2013-03-19 14:53:02 UTC
Arduemont wrote:
But you shouldn't be able to just fly to a belt, start shooting, and then profit. Effort to reward ratio and all that. If it doesn't require any effort, you shouldn't be getting paid for it.


Then everything is ok as ganking properly fitted barges/exhumers isn't profitable.
HollyShocker 2inthestink
HOW to PEG SAFETY
#64 - 2013-03-19 14:59:27 UTC
How about if its a normal pve ship? Should 2-4 people be able to gank lets say your Tengu or your navy issue ship with cheap fit dps ships. If so what logical reason would you give besides you can and its eve.

Where is the risk vs reward?

I say remove the profit and let these people that want to kill stuff go to low/null where there can be more targets. Stop leting them take advantage of the game mechanics as a way to grief hi-sec players.

Im not saying remove the ability to gank, just the profit from it. If you want to gank people then it should cost you and not profit from it.
Runeme Shilter
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#65 - 2013-03-19 15:17:27 UTC
HollyShocker 2inthestink wrote:
How about if its a normal pve ship? Should 2-4 people be able to gank lets say your Tengu or your navy issue ship with cheap fit dps ships. If so what logical reason would you give besides you can and its eve.

Where is the risk vs reward?


There is a number of risks involved with ganking:

- Your friends might ambush the gankers, exploding them (gank ships have little tank)
- Your friends loot your wreck before the ganker's friend can
- Your friends might use ECM to prevent the gank
- Your friends might provide logistic support
- Your friends kill the ganker's looter (he goes suspect)

- The ganker can't stand still in highsec space due to his secstatus (after a few ganks)
- Even if the ganker rats his secstatus back up (which is a long, tedious process), he lives under the constant threat of killrights being activated on him.

Quote:
I say remove the profit and let these people that want to kill stuff go to low/null where there can be more targets. Stop leting them take advantage of the game mechanics as a way to grief hi-sec players.

Im not saying remove the ability to gank, just the profit from it. If you want to gank people then it should cost you and not profit from it.


Most ships are unprofitable to gank and (as CCP stated) ganking is at an all-time low already. Why would you want to make highsec even safer?
HollyShocker 2inthestink
HOW to PEG SAFETY
#66 - 2013-03-19 15:20:22 UTC  |  Edited by: E-2C Hawkeye
Runeme Shilter wrote:
HollyShocker 2inthestink wrote:
How about if its a normal pve ship? Should 2-4 people be able to gank lets say your Tengu or your navy issue ship with cheap fit dps ships. If so what logical reason would you give besides you can and its eve.

Where is the risk vs reward?


There is a number of risks involved with ganking:

- Your friends might ambush the gankers, exploding them (gank ships have little tank)
- Your friends loot your wreck before the ganker's friend can
- Your friends might use ECM to prevent the gank
- Your friends might provide logistic support
- Your friends kill the ganker's looter (he goes suspect)

- The ganker can't stand still in highsec space due to his secstatus (after a few ganks)
- Even if the ganker rats his secstatus back up (which is a long, tedious process), he lives under the constant threat of killrights being activated on him.

Quote:
I say remove the profit and let these people that want to kill stuff go to low/null where there can be more targets. Stop leting them take advantage of the game mechanics as a way to grief hi-sec players.

Im not saying remove the ability to gank, just the profit from it. If you want to gank people then it should cost you and not profit from it.


Because ganking should be out of revenge or spite not profit.

Most ships are unprofitable to gank and (as CCP stated) ganking is at an all-time low already. Why would you want to make highsec even safer?


Because ganking should be out of revenge or spite not profit. Also a person shouldnt have to have all these friends online to undock. A good alpha strike wont stop the gank or allow time for ecm. I can see you are only able to look at this issue from your own point of view.
Aramatheia
Tiffany and Co.
#67 - 2013-03-19 15:23:20 UTC
i had a bit of a rush recently, i decided to go risky mode and move a 600m mwd in a rookie ship, i even got locked up upon undocking in jita. fortunately i had a speedy fit and a cloak so i was rapidly able to flee then hide before aligning and quickly warping away. Needless to say if someone blew up my little ship and got my mwd i wouldnt be mad at them because they would have taken the effort to find me work out that i was worth the loss of thier ship (maybe) and taken the required action before i could move out.

If the kill requires effort then it should definately reward accordingly. Maybe if some idiot wants to fly an untanked barge they should be tough as tissue as expected, but all thier mlus should die, to balance the cost/reward to the killer? not that that would happen. After hearing about hulkageddon first time i never idiot fitted a mining ship again (not that i flew mlus in the lows)
Liafcipe9000
Critically Preposterous
#68 - 2013-03-19 15:26:25 UTC
if a player is autopiloting in an iteron quafe edition with a cargohold full of Tech 2 / Faction mods








YOU HAVE TO BE INSANE NOT TO GANK IT
Andski
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#69 - 2013-03-19 15:29:25 UTC
Ganking some moron in an officer-fit Rattlesnake isn't easy, you have to scan them first, get a group together in DPS ships (this cannot be done solo unless you can multibox) and get everyone to engage at roughly the same time. It's completely easy for this to go south (i.e. the target isn't a moron, thinks - which might be difficult for some mission runners, I know - and gets out) and if the gank is successful, the loot has to be scooped up in a ship that can get out of there as soon as it scoops, since it will get a suspect flag. It's entirely possible for whatever module the gankers are hoping drops will not drop, since the chance of any given module or stack in cargo dropping is 50/50.

Since the wretches who get their Rattlesnakes ganked only see their ships pop, they immediately assume that suicide ganking is easy. It's not and if it upsets you that someone else who likes your stuff can take it, well, deal with it or biomass and unsubscribe - you won't be missed.

Twitter: @EVEAndski

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths."    - Abrazzar
Runeme Shilter
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#70 - 2013-03-19 15:31:05 UTC
HollyShocker 2inthestink wrote:
Also a person shouldnt have to have all these friends online to undock.


Of course, if you don't have any friends [online], you shouldn't expect to come out ahead of your opponent.

Quote:
I can see you are only able to look at this issue from your own point of view.


Currently the smart miner/missionrunner is almost 100% safe. You want to extend that safety to include the dumb ones, too.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#71 - 2013-03-19 15:32:45 UTC
HollyShocker 2inthestink wrote:


Because ganking should be out of revenge or spite not profit. Also a person shouldnt have to have all these friends online to undock. A good alpha strike wont stop the gank or allow time for ecm. I can see you are only able to look at this issue from your own point of view.


Good luck taking down a well tanked deep space transport in a single volly.
Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
The Initiative.
#72 - 2013-03-19 16:03:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Jenn aSide
HollyShocker 2inthestink wrote:
How about if its a normal pve ship? Should 2-4 people be able to gank lets say your Tengu or your navy issue ship with cheap fit dps ships. If so what logical reason would you give besides you can and its eve.


I underlined the only relevant part of that sentence for you

Quote:

Where is the risk vs reward?


The "gankerS" lose their ships and some sec status.

Quote:

I say remove the profit and let these people that want to kill stuff go to low/null where there can be more targets. Stop leting them take advantage of the game mechanics as a way to grief hi-sec players.

Im not saying remove the ability to gank, just the profit from it. If you want to gank people then it should cost you and not profit from it.


Again, that's simply wrong. The GANKEE decides if a gank is profitable, if you don't want your ship to be ganked, use some simple math and keep it under the gank threshold OR fly a ship above the gank threshold but have a trick or 2 up your sleeve.

My shiney tengu survived several high sec gank attempts because the gankers could scan my fit, but NOT my +6 hull, armor and shield hardwirings (thank you CCP for incursion LP) + my set of sig lowering implants. Sure, missile hardwirings would have me running missions faster, but i'd have lots my ship and some T3 skill points, so overall I win.

Then again, I don't think the game should do my thinking for me, unlike some people........
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#73 - 2013-03-19 16:26:41 UTC
HollyShocker 2inthestink wrote:
Because ganking should be out of revenge or spite not profit.
Why should it not be profitable to rob people of thier riches?

Quote:
Also a person shouldnt have to have all these friends online to undock.
Good news: you don't. You just have to play smart.

Quote:
A good alpha strike wont stop the gank or allow time for ecm.
A good alpha strike massively increases the cost, making it a lot easier to avoid being ganked to begin with.
HollyShocker 2inthestink
HOW to PEG SAFETY
#74 - 2013-03-19 16:34:21 UTC
I understand ganking a freighter being stupid and carrying to much, but fitting your ship for incursions or misisons is not being stupid. Infact people make fun of stupid fits all the time. Undocking and going to meet with your fleet or buddies isint being stupid.

What is stupid is people can make minimal effort and cost and gank these high dollar ships for profit.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#75 - 2013-03-19 16:43:19 UTC
HollyShocker 2inthestink wrote:
I understand ganking a freighter being stupid and carrying to much, but fitting your ship for incursions or misisons is not being stupid.
…but flying around in them without due concern and without taking precautions to protect your investment is.

Quote:
What is stupid is people can make minimal effort and cost and gank these high dollar ships for profit.
No, that's not particularly stupid. It's just the suitable result of the gankee being careless — he has to be, or it won't take minimal effort and cost.
Also, if they truly are high-dollar ships, then it's a suitable punishment for RMT.
HollyShocker 2inthestink
HOW to PEG SAFETY
#76 - 2013-03-19 16:46:47 UTC
Andski wrote:
Ganking some moron in an officer-fit Rattlesnake isn't easy, you have to scan them first, get a group together in DPS ships (this cannot be done solo unless you can multibox) and get everyone to engage at roughly the same time. It's completely easy for this to go south (i.e. the target isn't a moron, thinks - which might be difficult for some mission runners, I know - and gets out) and if the gank is successful, the loot has to be scooped up in a ship that can get out of there as soon as it scoops, since it will get a suspect flag. It's entirely possible for whatever module the gankers are hoping drops will not drop, since the chance of any given module or stack in cargo dropping is 50/50.

Since the wretches who get their Rattlesnakes ganked only see their ships pop, they immediately assume that suicide ganking is easy. It's not and if it upsets you that someone else who likes your stuff can take it, well, deal with it or biomass and unsubscribe - you won't be missed.


This is not true. Goons just dont hang out solo and say oh hey guys I have a target. Most times you guys are already formed up and ready to go. I have seen this many times as well as herd it in comms. You are very organised. Yes if the guy is running missions he may have enogh situational awareness to get out in time. Most times its the person not paying attention your going to get.

I dont have this problem in null. The enemy is very clear. He will be the one not blue Shocked

I truely belive many of you would change your mind should somone make the effort to hunt you down while in missions or incursions or insta popped you every chance they had.

Its not the ganking that bothers me its the fact that it can be done so cheap as well as with minimal effort.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#77 - 2013-03-19 16:52:14 UTC
HollyShocker 2inthestink wrote:
Its not the ganking that bothers me its the fact that it can be done so cheap as well as with minimal effort.
…neither of which is true, unless the target makes it so. The target can also make it not so.

Above all, the simple fact remains that asking it to be any other way is to say that five players should not be able to beat one, just because the one guy spent a bunch of ISK. There is a word for that kind of setup — it's called “unbalanced as hell”.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#78 - 2013-03-19 16:53:20 UTC
HollyShocker 2inthestink wrote:


Its not the ganking that bothers me its the fact that it can be done so cheap as well as with minimal effort.


We dont make our targets easy to gank, they do that all on their own.
GreenSeed
#79 - 2013-03-19 16:54:57 UTC
gankers argue that ganking is pvp, then how come ganking should be profitable when pvp isnt? yes, theres an incentive in the form of bounties and insurance payouts, but you are not supposed to break even, ever. every year or so you will find that holy grail of stupidity flying in low with a mission boat, but thats not the norm.

ganking should not be profitable, in an average way, period. if you want to make a profit, then sit in a belt scanning to find a barge that fits a faction tank or a mission runner with officer fittings near a gate. but randomly shooting at a barge with 3 t1 catalysts and making a profit, all the while avoiding -10 gameplay because your catalyst pilot is a 2m sp highsec superhero is a no. definite no.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#80 - 2013-03-19 16:58:03 UTC
GreenSeed wrote:
gankers argue that ganking is pvp, then how come ganking should be profitable when pvp isnt? yes, theres an incentive in the form of bounties and insurance payouts, but you are not supposed to break even, ever. every year or so you will find that holy grail of stupidity flying in low with a mission boat, but thats not the norm.

ganking should not be profitable, in an average way, period. if you want to make a profit, then sit in a belt scanning to find a barge that fits a faction tank or a mission runner with officer fittings near a gate. but randomly shooting at a barge with 3 t1 catalysts and making a profit, all the while avoiding -10 gameplay because your catalyst pilot is a 2m sp highsec superhero is a no. definite no.


Ganking = piracy.

When did people do piracy for no profit?