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Should Ganking be profitable?

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RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#421 - 2013-03-23 08:50:25 UTC  |  Edited by: RubyPorto
March rabbit wrote:
Andski wrote:
Caldari Citizen 1897289768188 wrote:
Another of the balance issues I have is if you fit your mission ship for its mission then you open yourself up to possible gank. Again a hi-sec balance issue where the ganker is fit for pvp and the pve player is not.


Are faction, deadspace and officer modules necessary parts of mission fits? What, they're not? Then no, you're not a profitable gank target by default.

....because every ganked mining barge has had faction, deadspace and officer modules Roll

Andski wrote:
Also, this "fitting imbalance" exists in every part of the game. It is not, in fact, a problem.

not really. unless PvPers operate in mission area they don't need to fit tanks against NPC.

while any other play-styles force players to keep in mind PvP part.


Bolded what you didn't read. They weren't talking about Exhumers there. Besides, Mining barges/Exhumers got buffed, and Exhumers were always able to fit to be unprofitable to gank.


PvP players have to fit to take NPCs into account if they're hunting PvE players, PvE players have to fit to take into account PvP (in this case, simply not fitting a 5b-no-buffer-Tengu works) attacks if they're being hunted by PvP players. Balanced.


And, as always:
Why shouldn't you be able to rob people of their valuables for profit?

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
Mag's
Azn Empire
#422 - 2013-03-23 10:26:41 UTC
Why shouldn't you be able to rob people of their valuables for profit?

Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#423 - 2013-03-23 10:38:38 UTC
March rabbit wrote:

....because every ganked mining barge has had faction, deadspace and officer modules Roll



They all had expensive mining equipment and no tank mods. They made the choice and we simply took advantage of it. We still take advantage of untanked barges with expensive mining equipment.
Caldari Citizen 1897289768188
HOW to PEG SAFETY
#424 - 2013-03-23 11:57:21 UTC
Mag's wrote:
Why shouldn't you be able to rob people of their valuables for profit?

why should you?
Skeln Thargensen
Doomheim
#425 - 2013-03-23 12:02:12 UTC
Caldari Citizen 1897289768188 wrote:
Mag's wrote:
Why shouldn't you be able to rob people of their valuables for profit?

why should you?


So, what's the point of robbery if nothing is worth taking?

forums.  serious business.
Caldari Citizen 1897289768188
HOW to PEG SAFETY
#426 - 2013-03-23 12:06:01 UTC  |  Edited by: E-2C Hawkeye
RubyPorto wrote:
Caldari Citizen 1897289768188 wrote:
RubyPorto wrote:
Caldari Citizen 1897289768188 wrote:
At first I had thought to continue to ignore them but after thinking about I think I shall continue to state my opinion and continue to bring to light that ganking for profit is an area of the game that needs addressed.


Why?

Why shouldn't you be able to rob people of their valuables for profit?


Because it is not balanced. Please see previous reasons given all thru out this thread.


You're right. It isn't balanced. The victim has complete control over the possibility of their ship being ganked profitably. The ganker has no control over the availability of targets which can be ganked profitably.

Of course, that imbalance is how it should be./quote]
So you feel the game should stay imbalanced just so you can Gank?

Also, you still have never answered:
Why shouldn't you be able to rob people of their valuables for profit?[/quote]

Yes I have over and over you just refuse to acknowledge it.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#427 - 2013-03-23 12:06:58 UTC
Caldari Citizen 1897289768188 wrote:
Mag's wrote:
Why shouldn't you be able to rob people of their valuables for profit?

why should you?


Because we have been playing as pirates for a decade.
Scatim Helicon
State War Academy
Caldari State
#428 - 2013-03-23 12:10:08 UTC
Caldari Citizen 1897289768188 wrote:
Mag's wrote:
Why shouldn't you be able to rob people of their valuables for profit?

why should you?


Eve Online: A Dark and Harsh Universe*













*no naughty behaviour allowed.

Every time you post a WiS thread, Hilmar strangles a kitten.
Alara IonStorm
#429 - 2013-03-23 12:13:05 UTC
Caldari Citizen 1897289768188 wrote:
Mag's wrote:
Why shouldn't you be able to rob people of their valuables for profit?

why should you?

I don't know if you noticed but good and evil are a big part of the game...

... From recent to the beginning.

Hi-Sec isn't immune. Play smart you live, play stupid you die penniless while padding some scammer or gankers bank account.
Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
#430 - 2013-03-23 12:24:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Jonah Gravenstein
Caldari Citizen 1897289768188 wrote:

I disagree. If ganking was not motivated by profit...which if you look at claims that retriever ganks are at a all time low, then people would still be ganking retrievers. Since people have moved on to better targets like the more profitable mackinaw then this shows its motivated by profit.


Firstly, it's the ganking of all mining vessels that's at an all time low, not just Retrievers. Secondly people are still ganking Retrievers, and they're still doing it solo. In fact looking at the CODE. killboard, more T1 mining barges than T2 exhumers are exploding, primarily because people still haven't figured out that a shield booster isn't up to the job when it is the sole tanking module fitted, a DCII is a better choice, but people won't fit it because it's not an MLU and impacts on yield. Some people are so oblivious to the capabilities of their ships that they're still fitting cargo expanders and cargo rigs to their mining ships, even though they have exactly zero effect on the ore hold capacity.

I regularly mine in a Retriever, in down to 0.8 space, for 0.7 and below I use a Procuror. While I'm a shareholder in the most visible miner relocation organisation I don't have one of their permits, which I'm not exempt from needing Straight, therefore I am subject to the risk of being exploded by them. I know the level at which I become unprofitable to gank and how long I need to survive before Concord turn up, because I've indulged in the ganking itself, and I fit my ships accordingly.

The only thing that you appear to have right in this entire thread is that profit is one of the motivations for ganking, what you have failed to acknowledge is that it's the person being ganked who is responsible for the amount of profit there is to be made.

Why shouldn't you be able to rob people of their valuables for profit?

In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.

New Player FAQ

Feyd's Survival Pack
Solstice Project
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#431 - 2013-03-23 12:25:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Solstice Project
It's not possible to teach the victims of our pain-fearing "modern", "civilized" society
(the people who ask for changes like these)
that nature is not unbalanced and that natural behaviour/mechanics,
as we can see them in EvE happening every single day,
are in fact balanced and how things work.

The weak will always ask for the strong to be limited,
because the strong are forced to accept that the weak have been put into a position
of power they should have never been given in the first place.

THAT'S the actual unbalance here. People asking for changes that push the strong ones
down to their own levels. Instead of improving themselves, they want the better to be crippled.
This is something that will NEVER stop, until the weak accept the NATURAL fact that the only
balanced way to correct issues the weak have, is to improve themselves and become strong.

Strong are all those who outperform, outlast, outsmart the weaker.

This perfectly reflects the unbalance of "modern", "civilized" societies.


Anyhow ... such changes will never happen, as CCP is well aware of
basic mechanics of nature and evolution.

That's also the reason why it's not easily possible to give smaller alliances the ability
to overpower bigger alliances, without actually breaking everything. The *idea* that
they should be able to doesn't even make sense !

Same as the simple idea of thinking that ganking shouldn't be profitable
just reflects the mindset of the weak, not willing to improve upon themselves
and rather have the strong ones be crippled in their freedom.

Unlike most weak, who don't perceive themselves as victims by choice,
CCP very well knows how things work in reality.


Case closed.


Next.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#432 - 2013-03-23 12:31:35 UTC
Caldari Citizen 1897289768188 wrote:
Mag's wrote:
Why shouldn't you be able to rob people of their valuables for profit?
why should you?
Because you can; because it's like that by design; and because you can't think of a single reason why that should change.

You have given plenty of opportunity to provide one, but you have failed at every single occasion including this one. The only reasonable conclusion is that you are a troll and that you have no interest to see such a change at all.
Danks
Fat Angry Toe Tappin Inbreds
#433 - 2013-03-23 12:33:15 UTC
Caldari Citizen 1897289768188 wrote:
Mag's wrote:
Why shouldn't you be able to rob people of their valuables for profit?

why should you?


Because pirating is a viable career choice in Eve, says so on the box.
Murk Paradox
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#434 - 2013-03-23 13:14:29 UTC
Whitehound wrote:
Andski wrote:
Pray tell, why shan't you profit from others' folly?

Everyone profits from others - traders, miners, industrialists, etc.. It is about how you do it.

Players have complained about ECM being a stupid mechanic, because it is chance-based and an "all or nothing" mechanic. So what about looting? Why does it not matter there when loot drops with a fixed 50% chance?

Or take the suspect flagging when taking from a wreck. Why is it needed? When you mine the asteroid of someone else does one not get suspect flagged, but I am sure some would love to see this happen.

Get rid of the fixed drop chance, get rid of suspect flagging, and make looting+salvaging a full profession. It does not have to be like mining where one points a device at a wreck for 50 minutes to get something out of it, but it would remove the "cookie jar" image of looting.

Let us make EVE colder and harsher. There is no need for looting to be sweet.


I think you are approaching it the wrong way.

The 50% of a wreck dropping loot is the "risk vs reward" aspect. It's a gamble!

And mining? Suspect flag for mining who's rock? It isn't your's. Nor mine. There are no rights to it. It's a freakin rock. Setting rules wouldn't make it colder and harsher. It would be more candyass because you are enforcing "sharing" (sharing is caring wtf).

The point isn't for making Eve harder for the other person. It's for making it harder for "you". Hence our awesome learning curve.

This post has been signed by Murk Paradox and no other accounts, alternate or otherwise. Any other post claiming to be this holder's is subject to being banned at the discretion of the GM Team as it would violate the TOS in regards to impersonation. Signed, Murk Paradox. In triplicate.
Murk Paradox
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#435 - 2013-03-23 13:26:03 UTC
Caldari Citizen 1897289768188 wrote:
Whitehound wrote:
Mag's wrote:
Why shouldn't you be able to rob people of their valuables for profit?

Maybe because it is too easy. Compare how complicated it is to manufacture T2 items - from getting moon goo, to protecting moons, to reactions, to invention - with how easy it is to loot a wreck. Or take officer items and how rare they are, and when they drop does it need only little repair if any at all and it is like new.

It would not hurt the game if the 50% drop chance would get replaced by something more complex and fun. People often point out how stupid WoW is and then they get all sparkly eyes when they seeessz preccessioussz lootszz.


White, I feel certain it wont make a difference as to any point brought forward. As always, should anyone choose to have a view or opinion that differs from their own they will do in this thread as they have done in every other thread that goes against their skewed point of view which is try and trivialize any and every thing they can.

It seems they are more comfortable arguing obtuse points in an attempt to derail the thread rather than acknowledge any validity in any thing you may offer.

At first I had thought to continue to ignore them but after thinking about I think I shall continue to state my opinion and continue to bring to light that ganking for profit is an area of the game that needs addressed.

The longer it goes perhaps the more attention it may receive.



What exactly? Our opinions? Anyone's opinions? The quote you put forwarded originally is still there, in place in the game, and is working. Perhaps maybe you need to expand on how ganking an unfitted hull IS profitable? Because it isn't. Just like they changed it. Which you quoted. Which is a working fix.

This post has been signed by Murk Paradox and no other accounts, alternate or otherwise. Any other post claiming to be this holder's is subject to being banned at the discretion of the GM Team as it would violate the TOS in regards to impersonation. Signed, Murk Paradox. In triplicate.
Murk Paradox
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#436 - 2013-03-23 13:28:53 UTC
Caldari Citizen 1897289768188 wrote:
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:
Whitehound wrote:
Mallak Azaria wrote:
On the contrary, I love it when a potential victim makes my job that much more difficult.

Let us change the game so that it is always difficult. You would still be able to rob people and you would love it much more.

If CCP could patch stupidity, they'd be omnipotent deities. Ganking isn't a game balance problem, it's a social problem.


I disagree. If ganking was not motivated by profit...which if you look at claims that retriever ganks are at a all time low, then people would still be ganking retrievers. Since people have moved on to better targets like the more profitable mackinaw then this shows its motivated by profit.

Profit from a gank is directly tied to balance not social. Again low cost high dps ships killing higher value ships. If this were not the case then people would still be ganking ships like the retriever. This is also why they don’t use 3 tornados to gank a sheet fir myrmidon zero profit to be had.

So this is why you are incorrect in stating it is a social issue when in fact it’s a balance issue.

Hope this helped you come to a better understanding of the issue.



This has nothing to do with the original post. Originally gankers ganked retrievers because they could salvage the hull for a profit. That has been fixed. By the original quote posted in the first opening post in this thread.

The social factor comes from people being out in space, with fittings worth trying to take. That has nothing to do with the original post in the opening of this thread.

IE- social problem.

This post has been signed by Murk Paradox and no other accounts, alternate or otherwise. Any other post claiming to be this holder's is subject to being banned at the discretion of the GM Team as it would violate the TOS in regards to impersonation. Signed, Murk Paradox. In triplicate.
Turelus
Utassi Security
#437 - 2013-03-23 13:35:16 UTC
The only reason ganking is profitable is because people fly around with Pinata Freighters.

CCP have made every change they can in favour of the defender but CCP can't patch out stupid, as long as people fly ships with 10billions worth in then it's going to be profitable to suicide gank.

Turelus CEO Utassi Security
Murk Paradox
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#438 - 2013-03-23 13:43:11 UTC
Caldari Citizen 1897289768188 wrote:
Mag's wrote:
Why shouldn't you be able to rob people of their valuables for profit?

why should you?



Because Eve is about taking from someone else. CCP even gives you multiple methods on how to do that; ransoming, scamming, ganking, pvp, EVEN FW is about taking from someone else.

That's not even mentioning the competitiveness of the market, which is pure player driven.

This post has been signed by Murk Paradox and no other accounts, alternate or otherwise. Any other post claiming to be this holder's is subject to being banned at the discretion of the GM Team as it would violate the TOS in regards to impersonation. Signed, Murk Paradox. In triplicate.
Mag's
Azn Empire
#439 - 2013-03-23 14:12:46 UTC
Caldari Citizen 1897289768188 wrote:
Mag's wrote:
Why shouldn't you be able to rob people of their valuables for profit?

why should you?
Because it's by design since day one. People can remove that option, but many choose not too.

So again.

Why shouldn't you be able to rob people of their valuables for profit?

Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.
Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
#440 - 2013-03-23 14:50:07 UTC
Still no answer to "Why shouldn't you be able to rob people of their valuables for profit?"

In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.

New Player FAQ

Feyd's Survival Pack