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Missile Explosion Radius vs Velocity

Author
Storm Airkian
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#1 - 2013-03-18 11:28:27 UTC
Hello,

I have been checking through Missile damage calculation reports and formulas in EVE and it seems as per Uniwiki and various other sources (Please correct if I am wrong) The formula for missile damage is (without resistances ofc) :

min(1, S/E, (S/E*Ve/Vt)^(ln(drf)/ln(5.5)).

Where S is Sig Rad of target, E is Explosion Rad of Missile

Ve, Vt respectively Explosion Velocity and Target Velocity

Well according to this formula, Velocity of Target is considered only when you are taking S/E (Explotion radius vs Ship Sig Radius) into account as well...(S/E * Ve/Vt) while if the target is not fast enough you already take S/E into account "anyway"

Which leads me to logical conclusion that ...When trying to increase my damage vs. fast and small targets; Instead of going for a Explosion Velocity Rig (or implant) its AT LEAST same or moslty better to go for Explosion RADIUS improvement Rig as , lets say 10% bonus for Radius will get into calculation for (S/E)*(Ve/Vt) anyway (if the targets velocity effect my missile damage) as much as a 10% bonus for explo velocity goes... AND ALSO it will provide its 10% bonus even if the taget is not faster but slower and merely smaller than Explotion Radius as its also present in S/E part of the minimum equation as well...

I am aware this might seem confusing typed this way but if u check the situation mathematically, the conclusion is going for smaller Explosion Radius is ALWAYS better or same for going for Explosion Velocity improvement missile. as Explosion Velocity bonus might have "no effect" while Explosion Radius will have it effect anyway should the target be faster OR smaller...

You are kindly requested to confirm (if possible) the formula and if the formula is correct please analyse my conclusion as its solid mathematically.

PS : I asked this question in game as petition as well, but they could not confirm me as unfortunately CCP does not give away its exact calculations it seems..
Bridgette d'Iberville
Better Killing Through Chemistry
#2 - 2013-03-18 14:58:41 UTC
I just checked the trade volume on Flare and Rigor rigs. Not sure about matehmatics, but economics appears to back up your analysis.

"I considered a career in griefing, but then realized that I would never achieve the level of tear generation that CCP manages to do each and every expansion."

Janna Windforce
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#3 - 2013-03-18 15:22:51 UTC
Your analysis is correct (I've come to same conclusion some months ago). There is certain amount of speed needed, before it starts reducing the damage (all other stats staying the same), between 0-thatSpeed is the Flare rig effectively useless.
On the other hand, if your rigored missile has roughly same explosion radius as ship's sig, but the ship is going relatively fast, then the Ve/Vt factor will reduce your dmg much more, compared to having slightly bigger explo radius, but sporting flare rig too. That being said, you can use webs to supply flare rig effect on target, but you can't supply rigor's effect per se, as target painters suffer from stacking penalties and rigors don't suffer from stacking penalty (or could be put this way: painting already small sig radius doesn't make it much bigger, but reducing big explosion radius number will be much more effective)

So the conclusion is typical EVEish "it depends". I keep dmg projection charts of several targets under different circumstances handy and refer to them to gauge my chances, if the situation isn't obvious GO or GTFO.
Zhilia Mann
Tide Way Out Productions
#4 - 2013-03-18 19:03:56 UTC
It does depend, but usually the sig radius/explosion radius comparison is more important than the target velocity/explosion velocity comparison. This was somewhat more annoying when Guided Missile Precision, GP implants, and rigor rigs didn't help rockets, HAMs, and torps. This is no longer the case however.

As for the comparison between painters and webs... that's much more complicated. Painters have lots of advantages (range, instant application, increased effectiveness due to skill training) that webs don't have. Range is probably the most important one; there's simply nothing you can do to slow a target down outside of web range (which we'll be generous and call 14km). With solid skills, painters apply 100% of the time out to 45km and have a very reasonable chance of hitting out to 90km.
sabre906
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#5 - 2013-03-18 19:14:33 UTC
Rigor for pve, where rats are slow but often small.
Flare for pvp, where noobs are big and fast on mwd.

Well, depending what you pop and how they fly, it may be both flare and rigor for pvp, but you got the idea.

Btw, tp modifies rat/noob radius, stacks with other sources of sig bloom, mwd, extender rigs, lses, etc. Rigor modifies missile exp radius, does not stack, even with itself.
Gypsio III
Questionable Ethics.
Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
#6 - 2013-03-18 21:26:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Gypsio III
sabre906 wrote:
Rigor for pve, where rats are slow but often small.
Flare for pvp, where noobs are big and fast on mwd.


Ignoring fitting requirements, rigours are always better than flares.

And LSE sig bloom is a straight addition, and hence doesn't stack with multiplicative sig blooms such as CDFEs, MWD and painters.
Storm Airkian
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#7 - 2013-03-18 21:56:31 UTC
Well according to my calculation... Rigor is ALWAYS better as where ever flare is needed, IRigor's boost is applied directly as well while When Rigor is needed, flare does nothing... It seems to me only and only if penalized effect can change that which comes into play after 2nd Rigor rig...

I mean its S/E where rigot applies.... and for Flare its S/E * Ve/Vt where rigot STILL applies... while flare does not apply at all for flare...

Still thanks for the contrubitions.
Bouh Revetoile
In Wreck we thrust
#8 - 2013-03-18 23:44:01 UTC
Considering the terms in the equation, even when speed is the limiting damage factor, explosion velocity bonus have exactly the same effect than explosion radius bonus.

Hence, as explosion radius is always useful whereas explosion velocity is not, explosion radius is better, unless stacking penalty apply.
Janna Windforce
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#9 - 2013-03-19 07:17:41 UTC
Storm Airkian wrote:
It seems to me only and only if penalized effect can change that which comes into play after 2nd Rigor rig....


Rigors don't have stacking penalty, which is the beauty of it all.
Paikis
Vapour Holdings
#10 - 2013-03-19 08:05:58 UTC
Gypsio III wrote:
And LSE sig bloom is a straight addition, and hence doesn't stack with multiplicative sig blooms such as CDFEs, MWD and painters.


This is not true. Sig bloom from LSEs are multiplied by MWD and CDFEs for sure. I have not tested painters, but it's probably a safe bet that they work for those as well.
Zhilia Mann
Tide Way Out Productions
#11 - 2013-03-19 08:22:12 UTC
Paikis wrote:
Gypsio III wrote:
And LSE sig bloom is a straight addition, and hence doesn't stack with multiplicative sig blooms such as CDFEs, MWD and painters.


This is not true. Sig bloom from LSEs are multiplied by MWD and CDFEs for sure. I have not tested painters, but it's probably a safe bet that they work for those as well.


Right, but the LSEs are first added to base and then multiplied by the others. As such they don't enter into the stacking penalty hierarchy. Or maybe more clearly:

(base sig + extender 1... + extender n) * stacking penalized stuff

Yeah, maybe that didn't help. I forgot how awkward it is to properly write out stacking penalty math.
Gypsio III
Questionable Ethics.
Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
#12 - 2013-03-19 10:20:23 UTC
Zhilia Mann wrote:
Paikis wrote:
Gypsio III wrote:
And LSE sig bloom is a straight addition, and hence doesn't stack with multiplicative sig blooms such as CDFEs, MWD and painters.


This is not true. Sig bloom from LSEs are multiplied by MWD and CDFEs for sure. I have not tested painters, but it's probably a safe bet that they work for those as well.


Right, but the LSEs are first added to base and then multiplied by the others. As such they don't enter into the stacking penalty hierarchy. Or maybe more clearly:

(base sig + extender 1... + extender n) * stacking penalized stuff

Yeah, maybe that didn't help. I forgot how awkward it is to properly write out stacking penalty math.


Indeed.

Yes, LSE sig bloom is multiplied by MWD, painters and CDFEs etc. But LSE sig increase doesn't stack because it's a straight addition.
Gabriel Karade
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#13 - 2013-03-19 17:02:48 UTC
Well, keep in mind that is a 'best approximation' of how the formula works, just as per turret tracking, we don't have visibility of the 'real' formula's.

That being said, I've always thought the sig radius vs explosion radius comparison is a bit redundant at best, a totally illogical bad compromise at worst… (to put some background into it; in 2004 CCP tried looking into a new missile system, where missiles would rapidly accelerate after leaving the tubes, but at close ranges they’d be too slow to hit smaller, nimbler ships. For some reason it didn’t work, so we got the ‘compromise’ explosion radius/explosion velocity system instead).

If a missile hits a target head on, regardless of how big it is vs how small a target, the warhead is going to do full damage and I don't see why this shouldn't be the same in game; the velocity factor (i.e. how close to the target a missile explodes) is sufficient for balancing small fast, fragile ships vs. the big missiles.

War Machine: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=386293

Bugsy VanHalen
Society of lost Souls
#14 - 2013-03-19 17:54:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Bugsy VanHalen
I use both rigor and flare rigs. I agree with the others that your math and conclusion looks right. However one note worthy factor is that rigor rigs use more calibration than flare rigs. most ships can fit 2 rigors and a flare, but very few, at least none of the ships I fly can fit 3 rigors. Especially if using T2 rigs.

Speaking from experience 2 rigors and a flare, combined with all missile support skills at 4-5, and tech 2 precision cruise missiles, you can hit everything but spider drones, normal frigs usually take 2-3 volleys while elite frigs can take 6-8 volleys. Destroyers and many cruisers are popped with a single volley. When targeting smaller ships precision cruise missiles hit much harder than fury, on BC they hit about the same, while BS and larger take full damage from fury cruise missiles.

I have tried running missions using torps as they appear to have much better dps on paper, but I can not touch my completion times I get with cruise missiles when using torps. They will kill BS's faster, but often rage torps will not hit BS's for full damage. And getting within range takes more time even with an AB. It just slows things down. Not to mention Javelin torps are not near as effective against anything smaller than a battlecruiser, they just give you more range. Since the changes to NPC A.I. I do not like relying on drones as my only means to kill frigates. If drones get popped and you are tackled you die, with precision missiles at least can can eventually kill the elite frigs tackling you.