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Seemingly Mindless Pvp: Any Relevant Point?

First post
Author
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#81 - 2013-03-18 19:53:59 UTC
Mayhaw Morgan wrote:
Asmodai Xodai wrote:
Believe it or not, I actually did start working on creating as many noobships as I could, for the express purpose of towing them over to this guy in my industrial ship, and hopping in them one by one so he could kill them all.


I pretty much did this when I first started. (It was a few years ago, when noob-ships were much less of a threat.) I thought they would get tired at some point, but they literally just sat there killing my noob ship for hours. The short and unsatisfying answer as to why, as far as I can tell is simply this: People are apes.

I didn't understand, at first, either. The first thing you should take into account is that we are basically chimpanzees. The main difference between a good number of humans on this Earth and their ape cousins is a baseball cap and an iPod, and they will mimmick what they see. (Monkey see; monkey do.) So, if they see someone else be a jackass, they (sociopaths) will likely be influenced to be one as well, because "that's how we play the game". Others (vandals and sadists) are probably genuinely destructive, anti-social individuals who enjoy "making things go boom" and "harvesting tears". Still others (cowards) probably do it defensively, because it is better to be the "lion" than the "gazelle". A fourth group (psychopaths) are those that actually advocate such behavior, as it serves their purposes in a crude, but effective way, although, it is probably rare to find this last group actually perpetrating the behavior themselves.

I think these 4 groups do most of the "mindless" PVP. The "mindful" PVP is obviously a lot more complicated, and it is sometimes hard to differentiate the two. Learning the "why" is part of the metagame that makes EVE so challenging and so rewarding. Good luck, capsuleer.


This is why we shoot rookie ships.
Charlie Jacobson
#82 - 2013-03-18 20:34:22 UTC
baltec1 wrote:


This is why we shoot rookie ships.


Mmmm, tasty nanoribbons
Arronicus
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#83 - 2013-03-18 20:38:29 UTC
Synthetic Cultist wrote:


a noobship may be a scout, destroying it before the pilot of the noobship is able to finish identifying all the ships on the gate is advantageous.



Moot point. If he decloaks before he has identified the ships on the gate, either:

A) He is a window licker who doesn't know how to play, so you need not worry

B) He is an extremely slow counter, you need not worry

C) He is on autopilot to his scouting destination, you need not worry

Alternatively, if everyone decloaks to kill a noobship, and give away your numbers, lol gtfo.
Kodama Ikari
Thragon
#84 - 2013-03-18 20:39:40 UTC
Asmodai Xodai wrote:
Kara Corvinus wrote:
fun
Pronunciation: /fʌn/

...


I said I understood that there could be "irrelevant points" to this activity - beating up cripples or old ladies and getting off on it (basically a sociopathic/psychopathic mentality). I was wondering if there were any possible relevant points to such acts.



After all that effort to make this seem like not-a-whine thread, here you go an blow it by saying "fun" = IRL sociopath.
Asmodai Xodai
#85 - 2013-03-18 21:39:06 UTC
Mayhaw Morgan wrote:
Asmodai Xodai wrote:
Believe it or not, I actually did start working on creating as many noobships as I could, for the express purpose of towing them over to this guy in my industrial ship, and hopping in them one by one so he could kill them all.


I pretty much did this when I first started. (It was a few years ago, when noob-ships were much less of a threat.) I thought they would get tired at some point, but they literally just sat there killing my noob ship for hours. The short and unsatisfying answer as to why, as far as I can tell is simply this: People are apes.

I didn't understand, at first, either. The first thing you should take into account is that we are basically chimpanzees. The main difference between a good number of humans on this Earth and their ape cousins is a baseball cap and an iPod, and they will mimmick what they see. (Monkey see; monkey do.) So, if they see someone else be a jackass, they (sociopaths) will likely be influenced to be one as well, because "that's how we play the game". Others (vandals and sadists) are probably genuinely destructive, anti-social individuals who enjoy "making things go boom" and "harvesting tears". Still others (cowards) probably do it defensively, because it is better to be the "lion" than the "gazelle". A fourth group (psychopaths) are those that actually advocate such behavior, as it serves their purposes in a crude, but effective way, although, it is probably rare to find this last group actually perpetrating the behavior themselves.

I think these 4 groups do most of the "mindless" PVP. The "mindful" PVP is obviously a lot more complicated, and it is sometimes hard to differentiate the two. Learning the "why" is part of the metagame that makes EVE so challenging and so rewarding. Good luck, capsuleer.


There were a few sincere individuals with some good posts here and there. But I think this is not only the best post here, but possibly the best post I've read on these forums.

+1. Cheers.
Domina Trix
McKNOBBLER DRINKING CLAN
#86 - 2013-03-18 21:47:55 UTC
claiming that players are psychopaths, sociopaths and whatever just because they like killing pixels controlled by another player is as credible as saying someone who plays COD alot is a Marine.

Two of the defining characteristics of a carebear are wanting other players to play the way the carebear wants and whining on the forums for the game to change when they don't. Yet I see more threads on these forums from gankers than I do miners whining about wanting the game changed to suit them.

Rebecha Pucontis
Doomheim
#87 - 2013-03-18 21:52:37 UTC
Asmodai Xodai wrote:
Solstice Project wrote:

Easy prey will always get killed first.
It's natural. Except when babies are involved.
/


Babies aren't off limits in the real world - see "abortion."

However, most of your points are fine except for the spy/scout/cyno-alt suggestion, which I believe is inaccurate in these cases as this happens to me in 0.4 "non player-corp owned" systems (but I could totally see this logic in null-sec corp. owned systems).

Thanks.


Actually, player corps, or even players do try to take control of low sec systems. I've even heard of corporations hiring mercs to take control of high sec belts and prevent other miners from mining there.

Another good reason is often times it is always best to shoot first. Sometimes by the time you have checked the ship, double clicked their profile in local to check their corp history etc, then it's too late. So shooting first becomes a natural reaction to a lot of players.

Control of resources is also another issue. If a noob ship is entering a system, then if nothing kills it then it may think it is safe. Next the pilot will be bringing in ventures and perhaps other ships to mine the resources from the system.

Generally I have a strict policy of only attacking reds, and a few others also have this policy, although it can put you at a disadvantage in certain situations and most people will simply shoot anything.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#88 - 2013-03-18 21:54:48 UTC
Domina Trix wrote:
claiming that players are psychopaths, sociopaths and whatever just because they like killing pixels controlled by another player is as credible as saying someone who plays COD alot is a Marine.


Its their last line of defence, blaming themselves is simply something they are not willing to do.
Fairren
HellrisCorp
#89 - 2013-03-18 22:07:03 UTC
Some men just want to watch the pixelated world burn.
Rebecha Pucontis
Doomheim
#90 - 2013-03-18 22:09:26 UTC
Ken 1138 wrote:

After all these years of playing I truly think people are so bored with themselves that getting the (i'm in not using the term lightly here) "sexual thrill" of killing a player even just your noob ship over and over and over. Is the only way they keep going.


Lol. You paint a bleak picture of the eve player base there. I think anyone who gets a sexual thrill from blowing up online pixels has some serious problems.
Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
#91 - 2013-03-18 22:13:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Jonah Gravenstein
Equating what people do in a game that is all about violence to their real life mental state is pushing things a bit far. Certain real life groups have been pushing the fallacy that violence in films and games encourage violence in the real world for at least 30 years, fortunately for those of us that enjoy games like Eve or watch films with violence in them they have yet to provide any correlation or concrete evidence to back up their outrageous claims.

Certainly there are people in the world that can't separate reality from fantasy, luckily they're in the minority. The great thing about Eve is its mature player base, and as mature players I would hope that the majority if not all Eve players are capable of separating an online fantasy world from reality.

I will quite happily inflict death on another player in a video game, I wouldn't dream of inflicting the same on a person in real life unless it was my duty to do so for example members of the armed forces, or police officers in certain circumstances, because to do so would go against everything I believe in, and everything I am.

Saying that our ingame actions reflect our true self is ridiculous. People who say such things really need to step back and take a good hard look at themselves, they're the ones who have problems separating reality from fantasy.

Our ingame persona is an act, we are all actors in a living production. For example Sir Anthony Hopkins played a cannibalistic psychopath in Silence of the Lambs, does that make him a cannibalistic psychopath in real life? Marlon Brando, Sylvester Stallone, Arnold Schwarzenegger etc have all played extremely violent roles in films, does that make them violent in real life? Are Quentin Tarantino and Robert Rodriguez raving lunatics because they have directed and produced multiple bloodthirsty movies that have a cult following?

The answer is a resounding no, and that is how it should be. People violencing your space pixels are not axe wielding nut-jobs with murder on their minds, they are actors in a grandiose production that just happens to be freeform and has no script.

In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.

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Asmodai Xodai
#92 - 2013-03-18 22:17:10 UTC
Domina Trix wrote:
claiming that players are psychopaths, sociopaths and whatever just because they like killing pixels controlled by another player is as credible as saying someone who plays COD alot is a Marine.


Except that no one claimed that. What someone claimed was that folks who get off on what they imagine to be other people's suffering, 'tears,' whatever - might very well be psychopaths, sociopaths, etc.

Learn to read/comprehend.
Takseen
Federal Defense Union
Gallente Federation
#93 - 2013-03-18 22:17:53 UTC
Think you may be over analysing this in a Freudy sort of way.

The truth is that gatecampers are scholars asking deep questions in Eve Online. They put these questions to travelers passing through their Gates.

-are they a threat? Shoot the ship and see if they survive and fight back.
-what cargo are they carrying? Shoot the ship and you will find out.
-what sort of character is the pilot? Shoot the ship and engage him in conversation afterwards to find out.

Miners are a bit like this too. They just talk to rocks instead.
Takseen
Federal Defense Union
Gallente Federation
#94 - 2013-03-18 22:23:38 UTC
Asmodai Xodai wrote:
Domina Trix wrote:
claiming that players are psychopaths, sociopaths and whatever just because they like killing pixels controlled by another player is as credible as saying someone who plays COD alot is a Marine.


Except that no one claimed that. What someone claimed was that folks who get off on what they imagine to be other people's suffering, 'tears,' whatever - might very well be psychopaths, sociopaths, etc.

Learn to read/comprehend.


I dunno about literally get off on your "suffering", but it is quite funny.
I also enjoy getting Killing Sprees in Unreal Tournament and League of Legends. Someone call the men in the white coats, please.
Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
#95 - 2013-03-18 22:36:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Jonah Gravenstein
Asmodai Xodai wrote:
Domina Trix wrote:
claiming that players are psychopaths, sociopaths and whatever just because they like killing pixels controlled by another player is as credible as saying someone who plays COD alot is a Marine.


Except that no one claimed that. What someone claimed was that folks who get off on what they imagine to be other people's suffering, 'tears,' whatever - might very well be psychopaths, sociopaths, etc.

Learn to read/comprehend.


Actually, you should take your own advice, and try reading between the lines, tears are more often than not the result of pixels being killed, the people who produce the tears are the ones with the problem, not the people that find them amusing.

The tears are amusing because the person who produced them actually takes the game entirely too seriously, it's only pixels, why spout endless reams of vitriol just because someone deprived you of some pixels, it's not like they stole your car, punched your baby or kicked your dog.

In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.

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Fredfredbug4
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#96 - 2013-03-18 22:40:22 UTC
People do a lot of things in a video game, but generally what it comes down to is one thing and one thing only.

They think it's fun.

Whether or not you agree is a different matter. For example, I can't see how people can find mining fun. However, considering that miners make up a very large portion of EVE players I suppose quite a lot of people can see fun in it even though I can't.

Watch_ Fred Fred Frederation_ and stop [u]cryptozoologist[/u]! Fight against the brutal genocide of fictional creatures across New Eden! Is that a metaphor? Probably not, but the fru-fru- people will sure love it!

Asmodai Xodai
#97 - 2013-03-18 22:58:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Asmodai Xodai
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:
Actually, you should take your own advice, and try reading between the lines, tears are more often than not the result of pixels being killed, the people who produce the tears are the ones with the problem, not the people that find them amusing.

The tears are amusing because the person who produced them actually takes the game entirely too seriously, it's only pixels, why spout endless reams of vitriol just because someone deprived you of some pixels, it's not like they stole your car, punched your baby or kicked your dog.


These are two different groups of people with two different sets of issues. I knew both groups existed. I simply addressed one group previously, not the other.

Of course a person who takes a game so seriously that he sheds 'tears' (real, virtual, whatever) is a person with serious issues and no life. Probably an overweight person who lives in his mom's basement, never had a girlfriend, never will have a girlfriend, etc. His whole life therefore revolves around a game. Of course such a person is pathetic. Not evil, not malevolent, but certainly pathetic. Worthy much more of pity than scorn/derision.

The other type is a person who gets off on someone else's suffering or 'tears' (real or imagined), shed by someone with no life (the person described above) or someone with a life.

The first type isn't a sociopath or psychopath or sadist. He is some other type, with a different set of issues (self esteem, etc). The second type most definitely is a sociopath, psychopath, sadist, etc.

We were talking about people of the second ilk, not the first.
Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
#98 - 2013-03-18 23:07:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Jonah Gravenstein
Asmodai Xodai wrote:

These are two different groups of people with two different sets of issues. I knew both groups existed. I simply addressed one group previously, not the other.

Of course a person who takes a game so seriously that he sheds 'tears' (real, virtual, whatever) is a person with serious issues and no life. Probably an overweight person who lives in his mom's basement, never had a girlfriend, never will have a girlfriend, etc. His whole life therefore revolves around a game. Of course such a person is pathetic. Not evil, not malevolent, but certainly pathetic. Worthy much more of pity than scorn/derision.

The other type is a person who gets off on someone else's suffering or 'tears,' real or imagined, shed by someone with no life (the person described above) or someone with a life.

The first type isn't a sociopath or psychopath or sadist. He is some other type, with a different set of issues (self esteem, etc). The second type most definitely is a sociopath, psychopath, sadist, etc.

We were talking about people of the second ilk, not the first.


I actually take offence at that as will many others, I've been known to suicide gank people for fun and profit, their tears are hilarious and I have quite a nice collection of them to supplement my corpsicle collection. I'm not a sadist, sociopath or any other type of deviant, I'm just a regular guy that likes to blow off steam by killing other people and enjoying their over the top reactions, in a video game.

You're pigeon holing people by the way they act in a game, and you're wrong to do so. In-game actions are not a reflection of a persons self, they take place in a fantasy world, where some people like to roleplay as evil despots and megalomaniacs.

On a side note, did you know that CCP was formed by the very people you place in the second group? CCP originally consisted of players from Ultima Online, that ran around killing other players for the fun of it, and for the tears, they were known as PKers (player killers).

Now ask yourself, do you really want to play a game that was conceived and designed by people that you consider to be sociopaths, psychopaths and sadists? Because that is exactly what you're doing.

In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.

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Asmodai Xodai
#99 - 2013-03-18 23:35:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Asmodai Xodai
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:

I actually take offence at that as will many others


I simply speak the truth and let the chip fall where they may. And to be perfectly honest, I could care less if a psycopath/sociopath/sadist takes offense at anything anyone says. Most people in the real world are in my camp here.

Quote:
I've been known to suicide gank people for fun and profit


In and of itself, not enough data to draw any conclusions.

Quote:
their tears are hilarious and I have quite a nice collection of them to supplement my corpsicle collection. I'm not a sadist, sociopath or any other type of deviant


I'm not calling you anything, but it seems to me that you are putting yourself in a particular camp. "If the shoe fits, wear it" I guess.

Quote:
You're pigeon holing people by the way they act in a game, and you're wrong to do so.


No, I'm "pigeon-holing" people by how they act in real life. If someone gets off on someone else's misery and pain, then blah blah (you know the spiel). We aren't talking about someone playing the part of someone who gets off on such a thing - that would be like calling Anthony Hopkins a psycho because he played the part of Hannibal Lector. We are talking about people actually getting off on such a thing "in real life," although what causes the "getting off" are events occurring in a video game.

Nobody has said or meant "these people are playing the roles of people who get off on such things." They have said that these people actually do, in real life get off on these things, and that's what motivates their particular actions in game. They either "know" or "imagine" that someone on the other side of the keyboard is shedding tears or is experiencing pain or suffering (even if they shouldn't, and even if it means they are pathetic because they do), and they get off on it.

Quote:
In-game actions are not a reflection of a persons self, they take place in a fantasy world, where some people like to roleplay as evil despots and megalomaniacs.


You are confusing the fact that just because this is a game, everything that occurs actually occurs in the game and you therefore can't "judge" or "pigeon hole" someone personally for that behavior. That's wrong. Yes, there is in-game role-playing that you can't judge - being some ruthless maniacal corporate CEO, or assassin, or whatever. Then there is out-of-game stuff that you can indeed judge - the very real, non-virtual "getting off" over someone else's pain/suffering, either real or imagined, either pathetic (in the case of someone with no life who takes a game too seriously) or not.

(Ran out of available quotes, so using [ ] to denote further quotes)

[On a side note, you do know that CCP was formed by people that you placed in the second group? CCP originally consisted of players from Ultima Online, that ran around killing other players for the fun of it, and for the tears.]

I have no comment, as I haven't studied this issue and don't know anything about it. If they are in the second group, then that's bad. If they aren't, great.
Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
#100 - 2013-03-19 00:13:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Jonah Gravenstein
Asmodai Xodai wrote:
I simply speak the truth and let the chip fall where they may. And to be perfectly honest, I could care less if a psycopath/sociopath/sadist takes offense at anything anyone says. Most people in the real world are in my camp here.


It's couldn't care less, could care less implies that you may or not care some more, or less. People in the real world may well agree with your stance on not caring if they offend a psychopath/sociopath or sadist, until said nutcase comes knocking on the door seeking retribution for causing offence.

Quote:
I'm not calling you anything, but it seems to me that you are putting yourself in a particular camp. "If the shoe fits, wear it" I guess.
You may not be directly calling me or anyone else anything, but you are implying that we fit into the second group because of the way we play the game.

Quote:
No, I'm "pigeon-holing" people by how they act in real life. If someone gets off on someone else's misery and pain, then blah blah (you know the spiel). We aren't talking about someone playing the part of someone who gets off on such a thing - that would be like calling Anthony Hopkins a psycho because he played the part of Hannibal Lector. We are talking about people actually getting off on such a thing "in real life," although what causes the "getting off" are events occurring in a video game.
This is where you fall down, you claim to be pigeon holing people by how they act in real life, but you are in fact pigeon holing people by the way they act in a game. I doubt any Eve player would go out into the real world and do similar things just to get the same kind of reaction that we do in game. There's no denying that I and many others enjoy and laugh at the hilarious and over the top reactions caused by our acts of video game violence, we enjoy them because we know it's just a video game.

You really do need to define getting off by the way, as far as I know it's a colloquial term for an orgasm or being huddled in a corner french kissing another person, as such it's an inappropriate term to use in relation to the subject at hand.

Quote:
Nobody has said or meant "these people are playing the roles of people who get off on such things." They have said that these people actually do, in real life, get off on these things, and that's what motivates their particular actions in game. They either "know" or "imagine" that someone on the other side of the keyboard is shedding tears or is experiencing pain or suffering (even if they shouldn't, and even if it means they are pathetic because they do), and they get off on it.
There's that term "getting off" again, you seem to fascinated by it. Enjoyment of another persons misery is as old as mankind itself, what makes it hilarious in the virtual context is that there is no real loss, if someone wants to be pathetic and cry about loosing pixels in a game who am I to deny them that? I find them amusing and laughable, as do many others.

Quote:
You are confusing the fact that just because this is a game, everything that occurs actually occurs in the game and you therefore can't "judge" or "pigeon hole" someone personally for that behavior. That's wrong. Yes, there is in-game role-playing that you can't judge - being some ruthless maniacal corporate CEO, or assassin, or whatever. Then there is out-of-game stuff that you can indeed judge - the very real, non-virtual "getting off" over someone else's pain/suffering, either real or imagined, either pathetic (in the case of someone with no life who takes a game too seriously) or not.
It's a game, I'm not confused at all, I understand that it's a game, I don't take losses seriously because it's a game. If people find that losses in a game cause suffering and pain then they shouldn't be playing games, it would take electrodes attached to my genitals that delivered current every time I suffered a loss in a game to cause me suffering and pain, because I know and understand that it's a game.

In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.

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