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Sending high sec miners back to null
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Rengerel en Distel
#21 - 2013-03-14 16:39:07 UTC
Didn't get through it all, but found it funny that after turning a miner into a ninja salvager, you'd kill him for it. Instead of encouraging his new found path to piracy, you killed him for that choice too. Seems more like you want to just kill people that can't fight back, regardless of what they're doing.

With the increase in shiptoasting, the Report timer needs to be shortened.
Marlon Darmazaf
e-L00T Ltd.
#22 - 2013-03-14 17:18:52 UTC
10/10....of those likes are from NO lackies.

So... um... yeah!
Lady Ayeipsia
BlueWaffe
#23 - 2013-03-14 18:33:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Lady Ayeipsia
TheGunslinger42 wrote:
Lady Ayeipsia wrote:
Honestly, my biggest complaint about the logic of the op (apart from assuming people care that much), is the op presents a nice set of circumstances, but does realize the deeper conclusion. The op only considers the in game aspects of the issue.

What the op fails to realize is that the miner in question is human, and human's are risk-averse. Some may seek thrills, but in general, people prefer the less risky option. In the case if the op's story, the miner moved from nul to an area they felt was less risky. The op proved the miner wrong, the miner moved back to nul where they felt less risk.

The problem is, the op assumes all miners will do the same. The op assumes all miners have sine safe haven nul sec corp they can join when fleeing hi sec. Given the nature of many miners I have known and the usual complaint that miners are solo people trying to play an MMO in an anti-social manner, most miners don't have friends in nul or a safe haven there. Heck, a good portion of nul corps will try to scam miners or other new people joining. In general, nul corps also want combat pilots who can be part of the blob and assist in CTAs, not miners who contribute little to nothing in defense if their area and in general are just a logistics drain. (who do you think moves the minerals to where it is needed or where it can be sold? Usually nit the miner but rather the poor logistics jump freighter pilot.) So the end result, miners won't tend to join a nul that does not want them. Instead, they will seek safe haven in another game. Congrats, you've just lost ccp a little revenue, driven one more player from the game.

Seems to me that the whole new order concept is flawed in this same premise. You can't claim people are anti-social and them harass them into being social. Life just doesn't work that way.


The lost subscriptions crap is so tiring. Highsec has never been, and was never meant to be, a perfect little safe haven for people to grind away all day in. If someone quits EVE because they get killed in highsec then EVE was NEVER the game for them, and therefor CCP shouldn't be worried about them. Do Activision worry about all the people who don't play CoD because they only like racing games? Do Valve worry about all the people who don't play TF2 because they don't have an affinity for hats? No. So why should CCP worry about players who don't want to play a spaceship pvp game?


Please show me where I said hi sec should be safe. Bold it for me please. Never once did I say hi sec should be risk free. I was arguing that the notion of since one miner ran back to nul after being ganked, all other miners would. The op was arguing as has james, that ganking and bumping will drive people to nul. I contend that this is a false assumption.

As for emergent game play, what new content has James created recently? Ganking miners isn't new. If it was, what the heck were all the past hulkagedons? The only content James has created is a group dedicated to bumping miners. every other action such as ganking miners, mining permits, etc has already been done. And James has been bumping long enough that the game play aspect is no longer emergent. It's like saying RvB is emergent. It may be fun, but emergent it is not.

Now if and when they come up with something new (like bumping mission runners to pregent them from using warp gates), cool. Until then, it's just tired old schtick and those who enjoy it will get bored. Some will leave. Hopefully those that stay will find the true joy of actual pvp combat where it's race to see whose hull can last the longest.
Lady Ayeipsia
BlueWaffe
#24 - 2013-03-14 18:53:16 UTC
Two more thoughts...

Ice mining for plex? Some do perhaps. Others do it to afford pvp. They ice mine afk while working, dealing with life, etc. The proceeds don't buy a plex, they buy the luxury of being able to soend their actual playtime losing ships and fighting, enjoying other parts of the game. Not all nul reimburses ship loss, and even those that do generally still require a player to purchase that first ship. So really, the new order isn't necessarily saving hi sec. In some cases, all they are doing is forcing people to.spend less time fighting and enjoying the game, and more time being carebears because they can no longer mine afk while doing other tasks. (Botting is not the same, kill the botters pleasei'm talking about the player who ice mines whike cleaning their living room or cooking dinner and are present enough to warp back to station every once in a while to unload.)

As for those claiming James and the new order brought you to eveyou poor poor soul. You came to this sandbox to play and yet are missing out on all the other beauty this game has to offer such as stalking a gate camper in a stealth bomber or being the first to find a wormhole to a site or pvp rich wormhole. Expand your horizons and see all the beauty eve has to offer.
maccain
Doomheim
#25 - 2013-03-14 23:13:09 UTC
Haedonism Bot wrote:
maccain wrote:
I have absolutely no issues with suicide ganking. Anything to make isk is absolutely fine. I wouldn never dream of mining either.


Im just confused how spending all your time looking for unarmed mining ships makes the OP any less of a carebear than the people he is shooting. Seems to be hes in the same line of work as miners. They both like shooting stuff that cant shoot back.


The line of distinction between carebears and non carebears isn't whether their target can shoot back (indeed, NPCs can and do shoot back, player characters in Exhumers rarely do), but whether you are actively choosing to engage in a winner/loser competetive relationship with other players. I don't consider Jita scammers to be carebears, for example, and yet they may never even undock, much less shoot at somebody. They are engaging in PvP nonetheless.

Oh, and nobody ganks miners for isk these days, that is a fallacious assumption. Even if James reimburses your losses, the isk per hour is generally not worth mentioning. Rather, people do it for fun, and to interact with other players.



where is that line of distinction written ?? The OP hides in high sec and engages in activities that have no risk?? to me and most people I know thats a carebears. He may be -10 but i bet he fleis around in a pod until he boards a ship in space to gank. He is as much of a carebear as the people he kills. Carebears are fine. killing carebears is fine. I just think being a hypocrit is funny, thinking he is any less of a carebear.
ujellybro yeah
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#26 - 2013-03-15 00:15:44 UTC
maccain wrote:
I have absolutely no issues with suicide ganking. Anything to make isk is absolutely fine. I wouldn never dream of mining either.


Im just confused how spending all your time looking for unarmed mining ships makes the OP any less of a carebear than the people he is shooting. Seems to be hes in the same line of work as miners. They both like shooting stuff that cant shoot back.


Please tell me more about how mining ships cant shoot back?

I podded wes whilst i was in a procurer

http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=16287358

Wes, great kill on the noctis, might try that one tonight on 412nv

What i find hilarious is that miners throw their hands in the air and fo F this im going to quit. As many have said, try your hand at something other than mining and be smart.

Im not going to give away the tips on how to avoid ganking, though plenty people can do it, it just means you might have to sacrifice some yield.

What i think that miners come sum it up like this

Risk VS Reward - get a 35,000 ore hold by flying a 200 mil ship with a target on it, seems like a fair trade off
Dont fly what you cant afford to lose - Again don't fly a 200 mil ship if you cant replace it.
La Nariz
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#27 - 2013-03-15 00:41:07 UTC  |  Edited by: La Nariz
TheGunslinger42 wrote:

The lost subscriptions crap is so tiring. Highsec has never been, and was never meant to be, a perfect little safe haven for people to grind away all day in. If someone quits EVE because they get killed in highsec then EVE was NEVER the game for them, and therefor CCP shouldn't be worried about them. Do Activision worry about all the people who don't play CoD because they only like racing games? Do Valve worry about all the people who don't play TF2 because they don't have an affinity for hats? No. So why should CCP worry about players who don't want to play a spaceship pvp game?


We have a winner here. All of the arguments favoring leaving something broken because X will increase CCP's income are stupid. The saying goes "a good product will sell itself." So by fixing the game and making it good (ex: crucible expansion and tiericide) they are already increasing their income hence the arguments in favor of broken mechanics are all invalid.

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Cyprus Black
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#28 - 2013-03-15 01:15:03 UTC
No point, this thread has.

Summary of EvEs last four expansions: http://imgur.com/ZL5SM33
Lady Ayeipsia
BlueWaffe
#29 - 2013-03-15 14:03:35 UTC
La Nariz wrote:
TheGunslinger42 wrote:

The lost subscriptions crap is so tiring. Highsec has never been, and was never meant to be, a perfect little safe haven for people to grind away all day in. If someone quits EVE because they get killed in highsec then EVE was NEVER the game for them, and therefor CCP shouldn't be worried about them. Do Activision worry about all the people who don't play CoD because they only like racing games? Do Valve worry about all the people who don't play TF2 because they don't have an affinity for hats? No. So why should CCP worry about players who don't want to play a spaceship pvp game?


We have a winner here. All of the arguments favoring leaving something broken because X will increase CCP's income are stupid. The saying goes "a good product will sell itself." So by fixing the game and making it good (ex: crucible expansion and tiericide) they are already increasing their income hence the arguments in favor of broken mechanics are all invalid.


So what mechanics are broken? Ganking? bumping? Miners?
La Nariz
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#30 - 2013-03-15 14:45:13 UTC
Lady Ayeipsia wrote:
La Nariz wrote:
TheGunslinger42 wrote:

The lost subscriptions crap is so tiring. Highsec has never been, and was never meant to be, a perfect little safe haven for people to grind away all day in. If someone quits EVE because they get killed in highsec then EVE was NEVER the game for them, and therefor CCP shouldn't be worried about them. Do Activision worry about all the people who don't play CoD because they only like racing games? Do Valve worry about all the people who don't play TF2 because they don't have an affinity for hats? No. So why should CCP worry about players who don't want to play a spaceship pvp game?


We have a winner here. All of the arguments favoring leaving something broken because X will increase CCP's income are stupid. The saying goes "a good product will sell itself." So by fixing the game and making it good (ex: crucible expansion and tiericide) they are already increasing their income hence the arguments in favor of broken mechanics are all invalid.


So what mechanics are broken? Ganking? bumping? Miners?


Sov, industry, risk:reward, pos, pve engagement, wardecs, do I need to go on?

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Kane Alvo
Doomheim
#31 - 2013-03-15 15:57:20 UTC
La Nariz wrote:
Lady Ayeipsia wrote:
So what mechanics are broken? Ganking? bumping? Miners?


Sov, industry, risk:reward, pos, pve engagement, wardecs, do I need to go on?


Don't forget the most broken element of null: the players that live there.

Caldari Militia  ☜★☞ Psychotic Monk for CSM8

La Nariz
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#32 - 2013-03-15 16:24:11 UTC
Kane Alvo wrote:
La Nariz wrote:
Lady Ayeipsia wrote:
So what mechanics are broken? Ganking? bumping? Miners?


Sov, industry, risk:reward, pos, pve engagement, wardecs, do I need to go on?


Don't forget the most broken element of null: the players that live there.


You could change that if you were willing to put forth the effort yet, like the miners, you refuse to do anything and instead will whine to CCP endlessly about something you are capable of fixing yourself.

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Georgina Parmala
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#33 - 2013-03-15 20:19:01 UTC
Jensaro Koraka wrote:
Nice work OP.

Dave Stark wrote:
how to send high sec miners back to null.

make null sec mining worth more isk/hour than high sec mining.
it's really ******* simple.

It already is, as is the PvE. A carebear will pay any price to avoid playing an MMO like an MMO, however.


Yeah no

When I have nothing better to do and decide to go mining, assuming I have a Grav in my WH, I have two options.

A) Take two characters in barges to the Grav site and mine ABC's. Frantically mash D-scan and pray to avoid an unexpected trip to High Sec.
B) Log my alt account over to a high sec AFK miner alt and mine scordite. Ship spinin in the bubble with the main. Kick up my feet and relax

Both A and B end up about the same ISK/hour when it's all said and done. Hmm, which option would I go with when I'm tired after a hard day's work.

Science and Trade Institute [STI] is an NPC entity and as such my views do not represent those of the entity or any of its members

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=276984&p=38
Dave Stark
#34 - 2013-03-15 20:24:58 UTC
Georgina Parmala wrote:
Jensaro Koraka wrote:
Nice work OP.

Dave Stark wrote:
how to send high sec miners back to null.

make null sec mining worth more isk/hour than high sec mining.
it's really ******* simple.

It already is, as is the PvE. A carebear will pay any price to avoid playing an MMO like an MMO, however.


Yeah no

When I have nothing better to do and decide to go mining, assuming I have a Grav in my WH, I have two options.

A) Take two characters in barges to the Grav site and mine ABC's. Frantically mash D-scan and pray to avoid an unexpected trip to High Sec.
B) Log my alt account over to a high sec AFK miner alt and mine scordite. Ship spinin in the bubble with the main. Kick up my feet and relax

Both A and B end up about the same ISK/hour when it's all said and done. Hmm, which option would I go with when I'm tired after a hard day's work.


you don't even need to make it that complicated.
null sec grav sites, as a whole, are worth less isk/m3 than scordite even when factoring in rorq vs orca bonuses.
Georgina Parmala
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#35 - 2013-03-15 21:25:25 UTC
Dave Stark wrote:

you don't even need to make it that complicated.
null sec grav sites, as a whole, are worth less isk/m3 than scordite even when factoring in rorq vs orca bonuses.

As true as that is, it really blows my mind. That I might as well have one character mining under CONCORD's protection, relative to having two characters mining in a -1.0 system with no local. The complete opposite of the risk spectrum offers close to half the reward.

As to the bumpers, here's some food for thought. If you see my alt mining afk in a belt, before you think your usual "carebear mining for plex" "wants to solo in an MMO" "takes no risks" "bot aspirant" consider this:
On the other monitor is another account, usually in a fleet picking fights. The miner just helps to pay for the ship I'm about to inevitably lose, because the current game rule set helps/allows me to facilitate that.

But don't worry. There's other characters on that account. It's not just for mining. I'm sure you'll be happy with another booster alt, falcon alt, scout or some remote reps on field instead. I'm just not always up to running both in combat at the same time, so I mine. If I can't afk mine for extra ISK any more, I won't quit. I'll just make less money and lose twice as much, reducing how frequently I engage in combat.

Science and Trade Institute [STI] is an NPC entity and as such my views do not represent those of the entity or any of its members

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=276984&p=38
norris Kado
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#36 - 2013-03-16 22:10:47 UTC
too funny , ill do what i want in eve and no hs scrub will dictate tht to me, i even had 4 guys fail gank my mack u know why caz i tanked it,the real issue is nul bears who think there so leet when in fact there nowt but fags
Millard Audene
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#37 - 2013-03-17 01:59:53 UTC
I'm new here, but wouldn't it be a better route to take to ask for more risk i high sec from rats? Increase the number spawned, increase their lethality and defense, make it so you have to stop one from warping out to get reinforcements. I see a lot of new players like myself that are in the corp and rookie help channels, and most are asking about mining. I doubt any of them, like myself, has ever been out of high sec space, let alone null. Pushing them out will do two things - make new players leave, and make availability of high sec ores drop, which in turn drives up those prices even more, encouraging more and more AFK mining.
Wescro2
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#38 - 2013-03-17 07:12:26 UTC
Millard Audene wrote:
I'm new here, but wouldn't it be a better route to take to ask for more risk i high sec from rats? Increase the number spawned, increase their lethality and defense, make it so you have to stop one from warping out to get reinforcements. I see a lot of new players like myself that are in the corp and rookie help channels, and most are asking about mining. I doubt any of them, like myself, has ever been out of high sec space, let alone null. Pushing them out will do two things - make new players leave, and make availability of high sec ores drop, which in turn drives up those prices even more, encouraging more and more AFK mining.


Buffing rats isn't in the spirit of EVE as a player driven game. It would be much better to buff players who do the rats job, ie attack miners.

No one is being forced anywhere. The safety of high sec is very advantageous, so low miners get a raw deal when for all their risk they get to mine more or less the same ore for the same profit. As for new players, you'd think they wouldn't be chasing 10m ISK an hour to begin with anyway. A low risk/low reward high sec is good for them. Once they are ready, they can "graduate" to a higher risk/higher reward low sec.

If high sec is high reward/low risk, you get the current state with 80% of characters in high sec, staying years and never leaving.
Lin Suizei
#39 - 2013-03-17 09:37:37 UTC
Georgina Parmala wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:

you don't even need to make it that complicated.
null sec grav sites, as a whole, are worth less isk/m3 than scordite even when factoring in rorq vs orca bonuses.

As true as that is, it really blows my mind. That I might as well have one character mining under CONCORD's protection, relative to having two characters mining in a -1.0 system with no local. The complete opposite of the risk spectrum offers close to half the reward.

As to the bumpers, here's some food for thought. If you see my alt mining afk in a belt, before you think your usual "carebear mining for plex" "wants to solo in an MMO" "takes no risks" "bot aspirant" consider this:
On the other monitor is another account, usually in a fleet picking fights. The miner just helps to pay for the ship I'm about to inevitably lose, because the current game rule set helps/allows me to facilitate that.

But don't worry. There's other characters on that account. It's not just for mining. I'm sure you'll be happy with another booster alt, falcon alt, scout or some remote reps on field instead. I'm just not always up to running both in combat at the same time, so I mine. If I can't afk mine for extra ISK any more, I won't quit. I'll just make less money and lose twice as much, reducing how frequently I engage in combat.


Go exploit faction war. It's like mining in highsec, but it's safer, and you get LP store items instead of ice blocks to sell.

Lol I can't delete my forum sig.
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