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The difference between a carebear and an EVE industrialist

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De'Veldrin
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#61 - 2013-03-13 16:14:11 UTC
A carebear and an industrialist walk into an over-generalized forum thread...

De'Veldrin's Corollary (to Malcanis' Law): Any idea that seeks to limit the ability of a large nullsec bloc to do something in the name of allowing more small groups into sov null will inevitably make it that much harder for small groups to enter sov null.
Ginger Barbarella
#62 - 2013-03-13 16:30:23 UTC
Your first and most glaring mistake is that industrialists are miners. The two are VASTLY different professions in-game, and to base your post on this flawed concept makes the entire post unreadable. I have multiple INDUSTRIALIST alts on different accounts, and NONE of them mine. I stopped reading the post at this mistake.

Re-think and re-post; I'll read the new version.

"Blow it all on Quafe and strippers." --- Sorlac
Benny Ohu
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#63 - 2013-03-13 16:35:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Benny Ohu
T'Laar Bok wrote:
As I didn't read the entire post that doesn't surprise me. But I believe I got my point across that putting people in nice neat little boxes especially in this game is almost pointless.

Yeah, but I don't think the idea is to say people are always in one of these two groups. It's just sticking a couple of example attitudes next to each other for comparison.
Murk Paradox
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#64 - 2013-03-13 16:46:11 UTC
Carebears are simply people who do not seek retaliation when something happens they do not agree with, or seek someone else out to do their retaliating.

Hence why "nullbears" exist as well.

An industrialist is naturally a carebear by profession.

Being a "carebear" is only a slight from those who thrive on misery and wanton destruction/grief.

Otherwise it's merely a description. There will always be "exception to the rule" because well, it isn't a rule.

It's a word.

This post has been signed by Murk Paradox and no other accounts, alternate or otherwise. Any other post claiming to be this holder's is subject to being banned at the discretion of the GM Team as it would violate the TOS in regards to impersonation. Signed, Murk Paradox. In triplicate.
Benny Ohu
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#65 - 2013-03-13 16:47:26 UTC
Ginger Barbarella wrote:
Your first and most glaring mistake is that industrialists are miners. The two are VASTLY different professions in-game, and to base your post on this flawed concept makes the entire post unreadable. I have multiple INDUSTRIALIST alts on different accounts, and NONE of them mine. I stopped reading the post at this mistake.

Re-think and re-post; I'll read the new version.

*spoken very slowly* the post is not saying all industrialists are miners, it's just labelling one of the example characters. jesus.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#66 - 2013-03-13 16:52:22 UTC
Murk Paradox wrote:
An industrialist is naturally a carebear by profession.
Quite the opposite: industrialists are, by virtue of their profession, not carebears. They wouldn't survive long in their profession if they were…
Murk Paradox
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#67 - 2013-03-13 16:54:09 UTC
Benny Ohu wrote:
T'Laar Bok wrote:
As I didn't read the entire post that doesn't surprise me. But I believe I got my point across that putting people in nice neat little boxes especially in this game is almost pointless.

Yeah, but I don't think the idea is to say people are always in one of these two groups. It's just sticking a couple of example attitudes next to each other for comparison.



The example given could also be the same person at different points in their eve career as well.

This post has been signed by Murk Paradox and no other accounts, alternate or otherwise. Any other post claiming to be this holder's is subject to being banned at the discretion of the GM Team as it would violate the TOS in regards to impersonation. Signed, Murk Paradox. In triplicate.
Murk Paradox
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#68 - 2013-03-13 16:55:10 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Murk Paradox wrote:
An industrialist is naturally a carebear by profession.
Quite the opposite: industrialists are, by virtue of their profession, not carebears. They wouldn't survive long in their profession if they were…




Sure they would. You don't need to travel or fight in combat to be an industrialist.

This post has been signed by Murk Paradox and no other accounts, alternate or otherwise. Any other post claiming to be this holder's is subject to being banned at the discretion of the GM Team as it would violate the TOS in regards to impersonation. Signed, Murk Paradox. In triplicate.
Velicitia
XS Tech
#69 - 2013-03-13 16:56:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Velicitia
Ginger Barbarella wrote:
Your first and most glaring mistake is that industrialists are miners. The two are VASTLY different professions in-game, and to base your post on this flawed concept makes the entire post unreadable. I have multiple INDUSTRIALIST alts on different accounts, and NONE of them mine. I stopped reading the post at this mistake.

Re-think and re-post; I'll read the new version.


all swans are white birds, but not all white birds are swans...

all miners are industrialist toons, though not all industrialist toons are miners.


Since you're only a few months old, I assume you're new (and not just a forum alt). Quick history lesson here -- used to be that the two camps were "carebears" and "pvpers". Now, at some point, it would seem that the whining of a very specific subset of carebears got vocal enough about the "unfairness" of eve that the current "industrialist" class of players wanted to distance themselves from the "petulant little child" image that this subset of players was creating for the "carebears".

As for the argument against "we shouldn't pigeonhole people into a few groups", we pretty much have that just because it's easier to use large/general group than try and use the exact thing we're doing at the time...

PvPer (Includes combat pilot, marketeer/trader, etc)
Missioner (includes Incursion runner, explorer, etc)
Industrialist (includes miners, manufacturers, inventors, etc)
Carebear (mostly seems to be made up of miners ... though any whiny person in any general group could be a carebear)

One of the bitter points of a good bittervet is the realisation that all those SP don't really do much, and that the newbie is having much more fun with what little he has. - Tippia
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#70 - 2013-03-13 17:00:41 UTC
Murk Paradox wrote:
Sure they would. You don't need to travel or fight in combat to be an industrialist.
…and combat is not the only form of destructive conflict. Being industrialists, they engage in all the other kinds (many of them far more damaging to the opponent that just a ship going poof).

If the industrialists were carebears, they would end up with nothing (or at least very little), which goes rather against the goal of being an industrialist to begin with.
Murk Paradox
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#71 - 2013-03-13 17:12:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Murk Paradox
Tippia wrote:
Murk Paradox wrote:
Sure they would. You don't need to travel or fight in combat to be an industrialist.
…and combat is not the only form of destructive conflict. Being industrialists, they engage in all the other kinds (many of them far more damaging to the opponent that just a ship going poof).

If the industrialists were carebears, they would end up with nothing (or at least very little), which goes rather against the goal of being an industrialist to begin with.



Too many absolutes for such loosely used terms.

Industrialists like and want to build, because it's a non combative form for profit. Combat is the vehicle that drives their market. I rarely see an industrialist flying his own(or her) ship into combat to make that profit. Whether that be a stockpile of ore or researching the blueprint used to create the ship.

Industrialists need the market, not the combat, to make a profit. Combat is merely one way to facilitate that. Otherwise what you are saying is a jump freighter would never be built.

Differentiating between carebear and industrialist is nothing but the spelling of the word. I'll show you.

Carebears like and want to build, because it's a non combative form for profit. Combat is the vehicle that drives their market. I rarely see an carebear flying his own(or her) ship into combat to make that profit. Whether that be a stockpile of ore or researching the blueprint used to create the ship.

Carebears need the market, not the combat, to make a profit. Combat is merely one way to facilitate that. Otherwise what you are saying is a jump freighter would never be built.


See what I did there? Both statements are true.

This post has been signed by Murk Paradox and no other accounts, alternate or otherwise. Any other post claiming to be this holder's is subject to being banned at the discretion of the GM Team as it would violate the TOS in regards to impersonation. Signed, Murk Paradox. In triplicate.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#72 - 2013-03-13 17:23:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Murk Paradox wrote:
Industrialists like and want to build, crush their enemies and take all their stuff, but do it on the market because it's a non combative form for profit. Combat is the vehicle that drives their market. I rarely see an industrialist flying his own(or her) ship into combat to make that profit. Whether that be a stockpile of ore or researching the blueprint used to create the ship.

Industrialists need the market, not and the combat, to make a profit. Combat is merely one way to facilitate that. Otherwise what you are saying is They realise that without combat, a jump freighter would never be built.

Differentiating between carebear and industrialist is nothing but the spelling of the word. I'll show you.

Carebears like and want to build, because it's a non combative form for profit. Combat is the vehicle that drives their market, but they don't understand this critical detail. I rarely see an carebear flying his own(or her) ship into combat to make that profit. Whether that be a stockpile of ore or researching the blueprint used to create the ship.

Carebears believe they only need the market, not the combat, to make a profit. Combat is [s]merely one way to facilitate that[s] some odd thing, in their view, that they believe happens elsewhere and which should be decoupled from their game experience. Otherwise what you are saying is a jump freighter would never be built.

See what I did there?
Yes, I see that you left out critical details that makes both statements false. A few edits will largely fix that…

Industrialists are competitive and understand that they're in a competitive business that centres on being better than everyone else. Carbears falsely believe that they live in a bubble and that what they do has no impact on anyone else and that, therefore, no-one should be allowed to have an impact on them.

The determining factor is not one of activity, but of intention and attitude.
There are plenty of combat-carebears, just as there are plenty of non-combat non-carebears.
Dave stark
#73 - 2013-03-13 17:26:52 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Carbears falsely believe that they live in a bubble and that what they do has no impact on anyone else and that, therefore, no-one should be allowed to have an impact on them.


carebears, people who mistakenly think that they're playing a single player game.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#74 - 2013-03-13 17:31:54 UTC
Dave Stark wrote:
Tippia wrote:
Carbears falsely believe that they live in a bubble and that what they do has no impact on anyone else and that, therefore, no-one should be allowed to have an impact on them.

carebears, people who mistakenly think that they're playing a single player game.

Gah! I hate it when people manage to take my rants and say the same thing while remaining short and pithy. A pox on you, sir!
Bing Bangboom
DAMAG Safety Commission
#75 - 2013-03-13 17:35:25 UTC
I'm kind of surprised we got to four pages on this thread without the blatantly obvious difference between a carebear and an industrialist.

An industrialist has a mining permit, purchased from any Agent of the New Order for 10,000,000 ISK, good for one year, and a carebear doesn't.

An industrialist who is mining in a gank prone area would make the economic calculation that 10 million ISK is much less than 40 million or 200 million ISK, not to mention the bother, and would eagerly sign up with the New Order. A carebear, if shaken from his slumber, will make statements regarding his "honor" and "the principle" and remain unprotected.

I know many miners make the calculation that they will not be the ones ganked, that somehow the hand of justice will pass them by, even that losing the occasional barge is calculated into the profit. I am sure each of the thousands of non compliant miners who have paid with their ships or their pods thought similarly.

What cannot be denied is that for the miner who just lost his ship, buying the 10,000,000 ISK permit would have been a better decision than the one he made.

One sign of an educated mind is the ability to learn from the mistakes of others rather than having to experience things yourself. Don't be a carebear. Buy a permit.

315 4 CSM8

Highsec is worth fighting for.

Bing Bangboom
Agent of the New Order of Highsec
Belligerent Undesirable

Highsec is worth fighting for.

By choosing to mine in New Order systems, highsec miners have agreed to follow the New Halaima Code of Conduct.  www.minerbumping.com
Alara IonStorm
#76 - 2013-03-13 17:40:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Alara IonStorm
What is all this talk about Industrialist not liking PvP.

In life you purchase an object for two reasons.

1. There is something that does the same thing but better.
2. It is broken.

EVE doesn't have the innovation for number one, like 8 new things are introduced a year into EVE which is actually an improvement. A new player can only get so much better items manufactured afterwords they can only get so much faction items better. Once they figure out the PvE Mechanics losing ships = losing connection.

EVE PvP is not just something that helps industrialists it is 90% of sustainable growth. That is why popular PvP Ships on the market have a billion more of them on the market then less used or niche ships. Industrialism would fizzle and die without PvP. In fact there was this chart I read where most of the losses in High Sec were T1 Frigates popping in Lvl one missions while Null Sec with slightly more ship deaths was mostly warships.

Industrialists love PvP because without it there would be almost no industrialists or economy. Also if Null becomes self sustainable they lose more then half their business so the Null Sec conspiracies to nerf High Sec Industry is very protectionist of their War Profiteering. Not so one sided don't oppress me Null as it is usually portrayed.
Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
The Initiative.
#77 - 2013-03-13 19:38:03 UTC
Friggz wrote:
To me a much shorter explanation would be this:

A carebear doesn't like pvp and also feels they should be completely immune to it if they so choose and would perfer to only engage in activites with no risk.

An industrialist doesn't like pvp but recognizes it is a part of EvE. They weigh the pros and cons and take risks they believe will ultimately benefit them in the long run.



This. Although even shorter would be:

carebear = bad game player

industrialist = good game player

To me, pvp doesn't even factor into it, their are carebears who do nothing but pvp , but in the safest way possible (like shooting my damn cyno alts, the bastids). It's more about "what do you do when things go bad", that's what seperates good players from bad.
Jimmy O'Shanty
The Westies
#78 - 2013-03-13 19:52:03 UTC
There is no difference. Carebear is a derogatory reference from a combat pilot to any pure industrialist. And it sticks because just as any slur in real life, it's grounded in truth, ie a stereotype.
Murk Paradox
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#79 - 2013-03-13 19:52:13 UTC
But carebears can be good players and industrialists can be bad players.

Approach to the game doesn't equal skill in that approach.

Alternatively, you can start as one and become the other.

Not to mention factoring the term "nullbear" into it either.

...it's like trying to split the terms "newb" and "rookie" and doesn't really warrant a full on description of the term imo.

Too much over analyzing.

This post has been signed by Murk Paradox and no other accounts, alternate or otherwise. Any other post claiming to be this holder's is subject to being banned at the discretion of the GM Team as it would violate the TOS in regards to impersonation. Signed, Murk Paradox. In triplicate.
Skorpynekomimi
#80 - 2013-03-13 20:15:41 UTC
The carebear whines and cries over being ganked.

The industrialist pats them on the back and sells them a new mining ship.

The opportunist loots all the wrecks in the belt, then sells new ships and ammo to the gankers, new mining ships to the miners, and sets up a buy order to encourage more mining in the area.
True opportunism is selling the gankers their modules back again.

Economic PVP