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Fixing sov is impossible under Eve's current FiS mechanics

Author
Frying Doom
#21 - 2013-03-12 06:15:29 UTC
Should that actually be the case and I am not say it is

The easy fix is just to increase the distance between regions so that jump travel is easy within a region but is limited to for example a fully trained jump pilot to go from the last system to the closest system in the next region.

So keeping local jumping easy and making regional jumping more dangerous in that you have to have a beach head in a specific system.

But personally I dont think that would help small alliances, while I do think a usage based Sov system and industry improvements would.

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!

Commander Ted
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#22 - 2013-03-12 06:19:42 UTC
Frying Doom wrote:
Should that actually be the case and I am not say it is

The easy fix is just to increase the distance between regions so that jump travel is easy within a region but is limited to for example a fully trained jump pilot to go from the last system to the closest system in the next region.

So keeping local jumping easy and making regional jumping more dangerous in that you have to have a beach head in a specific system.

But personally I dont think that would help small alliances, while I do think a usage based Sov system and industry improvements would.



Small alliances can't grow if they aren't let into null in the first place.

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=174097 Separate all 4 empires in eve with lowsec.

Frying Doom
#23 - 2013-03-12 06:25:20 UTC
Commander Ted wrote:
Frying Doom wrote:
Should that actually be the case and I am not say it is

The easy fix is just to increase the distance between regions so that jump travel is easy within a region but is limited to for example a fully trained jump pilot to go from the last system to the closest system in the next region.

So keeping local jumping easy and making regional jumping more dangerous in that you have to have a beach head in a specific system.

But personally I dont think that would help small alliances, while I do think a usage based Sov system and industry improvements would.



Small alliances can't grow if they aren't let into null in the first place.

A smart alliance could get past that

But as I said a usage based Sov is a lot better than any jump nerfs.

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!

Pantiy
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#24 - 2013-03-12 06:25:32 UTC
FYI this is the wrong section for features and ideas
Commander Ted
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#25 - 2013-03-12 06:27:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Commander Ted
Frying Doom wrote:

A smart alliance could get past that

But as I said a usage based Sov is a lot better than any jump nerfs.



Lol by what means? Renting? Growing to 1000 members in npc null?

Please read:
http://themittani.com/features/sov-problems-little-guys-or-new-blood

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=174097 Separate all 4 empires in eve with lowsec.

Commander Ted
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#26 - 2013-03-12 06:31:20 UTC
Pantiy wrote:
FYI this is the wrong section for features and ideas

I didn't really want it to be a f&I like thread but it kinda went that way...

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=174097 Separate all 4 empires in eve with lowsec.

Frying Doom
#27 - 2013-03-12 07:10:29 UTC
Commander Ted wrote:
Frying Doom wrote:

A smart alliance could get past that

But as I said a usage based Sov is a lot better than any jump nerfs.



Lol by what means? Renting? Growing to 1000 members in npc null?

Please read:
http://themittani.com/features/sov-problems-little-guys-or-new-blood

Been there done that

and I do not do the sheep, I prefer to think for my self.

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!

Commander Ted
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#28 - 2013-03-12 07:13:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Commander Ted
Frying Doom wrote:

Been there done that

and I do not do the sheep, I prefer to think for my self.

What a special snowflake.

Tell me how would a small alliance get started in null then? You don't even know, you have no expertise or input to provide on the subject because you are ignorant. Also that guy cites facts to prove its rare for small alliances to get started in null.

I didn't realize facts made me a sheep.

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=174097 Separate all 4 empires in eve with lowsec.

Frying Doom
#29 - 2013-03-12 07:24:33 UTC
Commander Ted wrote:
Frying Doom wrote:

Been there done that

and I do not do the sheep, I prefer to think for my self.

What a special snowflake.

Tell me how would a small alliance get started in null then? You don't even know, you have no expertise or input to provide on the subject because you are ignorant. Also that guy cites facts to prove its rare for small alliances to get started in null.

I didn't realize facts made me a sheep.

I am sorry I missed all of the facts in that article.

But once again I see how the idea of Goonswarm was formed.

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!

Liafcipe9000
Critically Preposterous
#30 - 2013-03-12 07:30:35 UTC
NullSec: The Unsolved Mystery!
pussnheels
Viziam
#31 - 2013-03-12 08:51:05 UTC
the FiS mechanics have nothing to do with improving the SOV mechanics

One of the reasons and probably the main reason why 0.0 seem so closed off for outsiders is the paranoia and alliances need for security
After living in 0.0 sec for a while i see why and admit i might been a bit harsh in the past against nullsec alliances

You need to keep fighting constantly and be paranoid about security to keep your own little space safe
if they do not they loose sooner than you can say superfcalifragi ..... never mind

I do not agree with what you are saying , but i will defend to the death your right to say it...... Voltaire

Commander Ted
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#32 - 2013-03-12 08:54:20 UTC
pussnheels wrote:
the FiS mechanics have nothing to do with improving the SOV mechanics

One of the reasons and probably the main reason why 0.0 seem so closed off for outsiders is the paranoia and alliances need for security
After living in 0.0 sec for a while i see why and admit i might been a bit harsh in the past against nullsec alliances

You need to keep fighting constantly and be paranoid about security to keep your own little space safe
if they do not they loose sooner than you can say superfcalifragi ..... never mind



somebody didnt read the first post.

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=174097 Separate all 4 empires in eve with lowsec.

Frying Doom
#33 - 2013-03-12 09:24:38 UTC
Commander Ted wrote:
pussnheels wrote:
the FiS mechanics have nothing to do with improving the SOV mechanics

One of the reasons and probably the main reason why 0.0 seem so closed off for outsiders is the paranoia and alliances need for security
After living in 0.0 sec for a while i see why and admit i might been a bit harsh in the past against nullsec alliances

You need to keep fighting constantly and be paranoid about security to keep your own little space safe
if they do not they loose sooner than you can say superfcalifragi ..... never mind



somebody didnt read the first post.


Hell and here was me thinking someone can't read.Lol

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!

March rabbit
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#34 - 2013-03-12 10:08:29 UTC
Commander Ted wrote:
Frying Doom wrote:

Been there done that

and I do not do the sheep, I prefer to think for my self.

What a special snowflake.

Tell me how would a small alliance get started in null then? You don't even know, you have no expertise or input to provide on the subject because you are ignorant. Also that guy cites facts to prove its rare for small alliances to get started in null.

I didn't realize facts made me a sheep.

fact don't make you a sheep. However taking facts without thought makes.

Ok, you got facts. Now try to find reasons for these facts. Or it was made by article author already? Do you believe to him?

And here we have the difference between sheep and "not sheep".

The Mittani: "the inappropriate drunked joke"

Carniflex
StarHunt
Mordus Angels
#35 - 2013-03-12 10:24:34 UTC
Well instead of going nuts with the current regions and supercapital blobs controlling it I have a simple solution for that "problem".

Throw in couple of new regions but make it exceptionally hard, if possible at all, to travel these regions with capital ships and large forces. For example, you can place these regions as such a distance from the empire and current null sec regions that jump drives cant reach it and then put the systems so far apart in there that you have only very few systems in reach of each particular starsystem.

It would be all nice and fair until some bears dig themselves in somewhere in there and construct a pile of supercapitals in the starsystem and - if these can reach adjacent systems in that region - dominate the new regions.

Another issue for a small alliance is facing the "blob" of multiple 250 man fleets fieldid by major powers. For that I would make it so that the stargates in these new regions would be partially damaged - allowing a finite number of jumps per minute, either modified or not modified by mass of the ships jumping.

Overall we already have wormholes for these people who desire sov warfare free existence. Alhough the warfare can and do get even more brutal in higher end holes than it does in sov warfare. What these "limited" regions might offer is a access to a sov holding gameplay for smaller well organized entities. It's just that we already have enough regular null sec space, so these should be something unique.

Say one such region for each major pirate faction giving nice geographical coverage, perhaps one also for rogue drones, now that they are a faction of their own. So, alltogehter 5 regions, say approx 50 systems each so about 250 new starsystems and if its designed in a way to make it hard to control multiple starsystems with power projection in these regions it should serve as a nice startup location for the smaller alliances where they can grow sheltered from the supercap blob until they feel they are ready to go play with the big boys and their big boy toys in the form of supercap blob.

Here, sanity... niiiice sanity, come to daddy... okay, that's a good sanity... THWONK! GOT the bastard.

Fearghaz Tiwas
Perkone
Caldari State
#36 - 2013-03-12 10:39:06 UTC
I agree with your premise, but I don't really think that your suggestion will solve the power projection problem, unless I have misunderstood. I've thought it might make sense to make jumping take time depending on the size of the ship jumping through. This would mean hotdropping is still viable, but It means you can't just drop capitals without doing a bit more planning in approach. It would then kind of level the playing field, as sub-cap support would be more important, and smaller alliances might stand more of a chance of fighting back.

I do think the problem lies in how quickly people can get from a-b, now how easy it is. Nerfing jumping for the largest ships should still mean that jump bridges will retain their logistical roles also.
Primary Me
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#37 - 2013-03-12 10:40:30 UTC
They should remove the ability of coming out of warp and jumping straight through the gate, perhaps if ships came out of warp a short distance away from the gate and then had to slow boat the rest of the way this would add the necessary delay to travel that you are trying to achieve.

With a distance of, say, 15km to travel, this would also provide more opportunities for combat to occur around gates.

Hmm, hang on, this sounds familiar...Blink
monkfish2345
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#38 - 2013-03-12 10:43:21 UTC
As with many things it's a matter of balance.

right now, the only situation where a small force can claim a system is if the Sov holders are out of town. Despite that they still need a certain level of players before it becomes viable, due to POS's etc.

Even when undefended because of reinforce timers it is easy for a larger force to mobilize a fleet to defend their structures as they have plenty of warning. and as said previously space is relatively easy to traverse.

The problem is to change this for the better the obvious solutions come down to a few things:

1) make Sov more vulnerable
2) remove reinforcement timers
3) make space harder to traverse. thus harder to defend.

each of these would potentially help a smaller force be able to achieve things via a more gorilla style assault. however, it would also make life easier for the larger alliances to conquer space quickly.

personally, i'd like to see a situation where sov holding structures cannot be placed on POS's, this instantly makes Sov combat inaccessible for small groups. and a dramatic reduction in the reinforce timer limits. As an example, a max timer of 6- 8 hours would potentially make a system seigeable whilst also giving the defending force a chance to fight at least close to their prime TZ. this would also mean that there would be greater risk with deploying over large distances as there would be a need to react quickly to an attack.

I'd suggest that also a reducing in the health of sov structures could be useful, but in a way that made them quick to reinforce but would then take a more sustained effort to destroy.

that's my view anyway.

Abrazzar
Vardaugas Family
#39 - 2013-03-12 10:49:02 UTC
"Impossible". Always throwing around absolutes to have their own pet peeves get looked at first.....

Sov is impossible to fix because there isn't enough substance to it that can be balanced. It's like bricks in the the sandbox. You can't make them more malleable without smashing them to bits with a hammer. I say, throw those bricks out and bring in a bucket, water and sand moulds, so people can build their sand castles for others to gawk at or tear down.

Sov needs to be made up of smaller bits that can be either slowly eroded or violently smashed down, depending on tastes and abilities. And if there are options for subterfuge and conquest, even better.
Brooks Puuntai
Solar Nexus.
#40 - 2013-03-12 10:53:32 UTC
Sov should work like zerg in SC.

CCP's Motto: If it isn't broken, break it. If it is broken, ignore it. Improving NPE / Dynamic New Eden

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