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Why complain about High Sec but not SOV mechanics? An honest look at null bears.

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Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#221 - 2013-03-12 16:15:14 UTC
HollyShocker 2inthestink wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
Andski wrote:
HollyShocker 2inthestink wrote:
Here is one of those people now. None of the nullbears want to lose their hi-sec play ground. Null sec is player created so let the players change it if they are bored.

Don’t change hi-sec to counter what we created in null. We made our bed lets lay in it.


if only we could magic away the limitations of nullsec through the powers of the Sandbox(TM)

(we can't)


Did you know that we can only have 1 outpost per system in sov 0.0 because we make bad choices?

(V.V. will tell us what the good choices are later, I'm hoping)



Did anyone force you to go to null? Or did you make a choice like me and decided to go?


No, I wanted to be in a part of space where players could build their own groupings.

What a shame to find out that the best we're allowed to build is so astonishingly inferior to the free, invulnerable NPC facilities.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#222 - 2013-03-12 16:17:14 UTC
Kane Alvo wrote:
Tippia wrote:
No, income is not really a factor since it's so massively overshadowed by all the other concerns — security, logistics, availability, ease of use etc. If you pay attention, you'll notice that there's actually very little talk about increasing the income, but rather to make the income you already get be proportional to what you have to do to get it in relation to how much you earn elsewhere. It's not the income — it's the costs that matter.

…just like saying that nullseccers are trying to convince anyone that the income sucks when the actual complaint is that the rewards you get for all the effort do not scale properly. Reducing all that to just “income” is to miss out on, oh, pretty much every last detail, making it a BS claim.


Sockpuppet wrote:
The tl;dr is that it quite literally pays better to mine in hi-sec than it does to mine "high end" grav sites in 0.0


Null bear spindoctoring at its finest is on display here, folks.


Handwaving away inconvenient facts at its finest on display here, folks.

Would you care to dispute Mr Stark's figures with your own? Or do you prefer to just shout loudly and hope everyone confuses noise with conviction?

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#223 - 2013-03-12 16:23:27 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
Kane Alvo wrote:
Tippia wrote:
No, income is not really a factor since it's so massively overshadowed by all the other concerns — security, logistics, availability, ease of use etc. If you pay attention, you'll notice that there's actually very little talk about increasing the income, but rather to make the income you already get be proportional to what you have to do to get it in relation to how much you earn elsewhere. It's not the income — it's the costs that matter.

…just like saying that nullseccers are trying to convince anyone that the income sucks when the actual complaint is that the rewards you get for all the effort do not scale properly. Reducing all that to just “income” is to miss out on, oh, pretty much every last detail, making it a BS claim.

Sockpuppet wrote:
The tl;dr is that it quite literally pays better to mine in hi-sec than it does to mine "high end" grav sites in 0.0

Null bear spindoctoring at its finest is on display here, folks.

Handwaving away inconvenient facts at its finest on display here, folks.

Would you care to dispute Mr Stark's figures with your own? Or do you prefer to just shout loudly and hope everyone confuses noise with conviction?

At least make up some numbers, it's a better technique than just ignoring the ones you don't like.

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#224 - 2013-03-12 16:24:26 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
No, I wanted to be in a part of space where players could build their own groupings.

What a shame to find out that the best we're allowed to build is so astonishingly inferior to the free, invulnerable NPC facilities.

EVE is harsh and cold, and you must adapt.

Return to highsec. Submit. The NPCs have you thoroughly beaten.

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Cys Root
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#225 - 2013-03-12 16:26:12 UTC
Wrote something eloquent then forum ate my post, so **** you all.
March rabbit
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#226 - 2013-03-12 16:28:50 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
No, I wanted to be in a part of space where players could build their own groupings.

last time i've checked there was corporations and alliances. I've heard something about fleets too....

Malcanis wrote:

What a shame to find out that the best we're allowed to build is so astonishingly inferior to the free, invulnerable NPC facilities.

yea, exactly. That's a shame we can't be more deadly and invulnerably that CONCORD.... This is not sandbox style!

The Mittani: "the inappropriate drunked joke"
Colonel Xaven
Perkone
Caldari State
#227 - 2013-03-12 16:30:25 UTC
Sariah Kion wrote:
One of the most glaring issues facing EVE is the terrible SOV mechanics which promote stagnation and isk hording and put "gf" pvp as an ancient memory.

I started to ask myself why do these null sec carebears continually come to the forums and complain about high sec and its pending destruction of this great pvp game when the SOV mechanics and system have done more harm to pvp then anything in high sec at current or in the future.

The answer is fairly obvious. These null sec alliances whom have blued up 70% of SOV space love their empires filled with isk spigots attached to moons giving them enormous passively earned wealth. They love to shoot their wealthy rats without a care in the world making more isk than mission runners in high sec. Lets not forget how much isk they earn shooting up dead space complexes without any worry about pvp. They can mine without any risk and reap the benefits. Hell no they dont want that to change. Instead they focus their energies on taking MORE by trying to lay the blame for the state of pvp in the game at the doorsteps of high sec.

I argue that may of the loudmouthed null bear trolls on this forum are more risk averse than many of the targets of their sharp tongued attacks. They are not looking for "change" to better EVE, bring about more pvp or bring balance to the game as a whole, they are simply looking for more isk and power.

Its a shame. If these null care bears would put as much effort into changing the real mechanic that can bring null sec back to life instead of engaging in the only pvp they wish to engage in at this point which is forum pvp. Turn that energy into changing SOV and it would benefit EVERYONE in the game and would draw people into null because they would have a fighting chance.

Unfortunately they are not interested in such a noble endeavor. They will merely keep on hiding the fact they are the ones who truly are the care bears hiding form the good fight behind terrible mechanics all the while acting the full part of hypocrite while pointing the finger at the "risk averse" high sec'er as the doom of everything good and righteous in EVE.

Null bears, you are not fooling anyone and only serve to make yourselves and your alliances look even more foolish than they currently look.





1/10

Come back with some sorted arguments, facts, insight and a general clue plz. Your "opinion" does not serve the debate at all and there are way better threads without trolling in the OP.

www.facebook.com/RazorAlliance
Mortimer Civeri
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#228 - 2013-03-12 16:30:38 UTC
HollyShocker 2inthestink wrote:
Yes the stalemate and boredom was and is player created. It should fall to the players to fix it not CCP. I hate going on POS bashes and I hate going on boring roams or the long waits to form fleets but I made my choice just as you did.

I dont blame hi-sec for the situation in null. As an adult I know I can go to hi-sec any time I like just as you can.

Sure there are some things I would like to see made better but it's not hi-secs fault. Either work with what you have or GTFO.

The players are "fixing it" by totaly bypasing the SOV system and going with "wargames". Frankly I think it is bullspit. Soon they will be bidding forces for a battle, like some MWO Clanner RP gaylord, but they are doing "something" to "fix" it.

"I don't know which is worse, ...that everyone has his price, or that the price is always so low." Calvin
Murk Paradox
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#229 - 2013-03-12 16:34:21 UTC
Primary Me wrote:
Sariah Kion wrote:
One of the most glaring issues facing EVE is the terrible SOV mechanics which promote stagnation and isk hording and put "gf" pvp as an ancient memory.

I started to ask myself why do these null sec carebears continually come to the forums and complain about high sec and its pending destruction of this great pvp game when the SOV mechanics and system have done more harm to pvp then anything in high sec at current or in the future.

The answer is fairly obvious. These null sec alliances whom have blued up 70% of SOV space love their empires filled with isk spigots attached to moons giving them enormous passively earned wealth. They love to shoot their wealthy rats without a care in the world making more isk than mission runners in high sec. Lets not forget how much isk they earn shooting up dead space complexes without any worry about pvp. They can mine without any risk and reap the benefits. Hell no they dont want that to change. Instead they focus their energies on taking MORE by trying to lay the blame for the state of pvp in the game at the doorsteps of high sec.

I argue that may of the loudmouthed null bear trolls on this forum are more risk averse than many of the targets of their sharp tongued attacks. They are not looking for "change" to better EVE, bring about more pvp or bring balance to the game as a whole, they are simply looking for more isk and power.

Its a shame. If these null care bears would put as much effort into changing the real mechanic that can bring null sec back to life instead of engaging in the only pvp they wish to engage in at this point which is forum pvp. Turn that energy into changing SOV and it would benefit EVERYONE in the game and would draw people into null because they would have a fighting chance.

Unfortunately they are not interested in such a noble endeavor. They will merely keep on hiding the fact they are the ones who truly are the care bears hiding form the good fight behind terrible mechanics all the while acting the full part of hypocrite while pointing the finger at the "risk averse" high sec'er as the doom of everything good and righteous in EVE.

Null bears, you are not fooling anyone and only serve to make yourselves and your alliances look even more foolish than they currently look.




Or they realise that the problems off null-sec are multi faceted and that they are too complex to be discussed in one debate. There are issues with industry, POSes, sov mechanics and moon mining, and these will need to be discussed/debated as seperate entities, otherwise the problem is just too large to even contemplate fixing.

Still, I'm sure that won't stop you replying with some sort of 'No YOU, Null bear!' nonsense and then having this thread locked for rantingRoll



That's very unlikely when most of them who do post, post the same rhetoric and greatly resembles a spoon fed agenda filled with typical responses.

Once you notice that they find a specific term or wording to latch onto, the rest is ignored in any form of sense of conversation; it becomes a personal attack filled with assumptions.

In short, their "realizing" is done for them already.

This post has been signed by Murk Paradox and no other accounts, alternate or otherwise. Any other post claiming to be this holder's is subject to being banned at the discretion of the GM Team as it would violate the TOS in regards to impersonation. Signed, Murk Paradox. In triplicate.
Sentamon
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#230 - 2013-03-12 16:43:33 UTC
EVE is a sandbox.

The new BoB chose to make null the way it is. Nothing was forced on them, the current situation is 100% their choice.
Should anything be done to appease the unhappy members of new BoB?

Absolutely NOT. Let the Goons enjoy the fruits of becoming of what they once despised.

~ Professional Forum Alt  ~
Benny Ohu
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#231 - 2013-03-12 16:55:46 UTC
Sentamon wrote:
EVE is a sandbox.

The new BoB chose to make null the way it is. Nothing was forced on them, the current situation is 100% their choice.
Should anything be done to appease the unhappy members of new BoB?

Absolutely NOT. Let the Goons enjoy the fruits of becoming of what they once despised.


there is one space between the the first tilde of your sig and the letter P. there are two spaces between the letter T and your second tilde. please correct this immediately as it is beginning to bother me.
Gerard Hareka
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#232 - 2013-03-12 17:05:48 UTC
Alavaria Fera wrote:

EVE is harsh and cold, and you must adapt.



You mean safe arena pvp aka. war games are harsh and cold ??
Lapine Davion
Outer Ring Applied Logistics
#233 - 2013-03-12 18:01:47 UTC
Sentamon wrote:
EVE is a sandbox.

The new BoB chose to make null the way it is. Nothing was forced on them, the current situation is 100% their choice.
Should anything be done to appease the unhappy members of new BoB?

Absolutely NOT. Let the Goons enjoy the fruits of becoming of what they once despised.



Yes, we deliberately made it so that Highsec industry is infinitely easier, cheaper, and safer than nullsec, where we all live.

[b]Don't worry about posting with your main!  Post with your brain! "Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity."[/b]
Lapine Davion
Outer Ring Applied Logistics
#234 - 2013-03-12 18:03:44 UTC
Gerard Hareka wrote:
Alavaria Fera wrote:

EVE is harsh and cold, and you must adapt.



You mean safe arena pvp aka. war games are harsh and cold ??


Have you ever had to grind regions worth of sov structures? I bet you haven't, or else you would know why everyone prefers these "wargames" over smashing our faces against our desks for a sov system that *only* large sov holders can effectively do. And it is still unimaginably painful.

[b]Don't worry about posting with your main!  Post with your brain! "Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity."[/b]
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#235 - 2013-03-12 18:05:43 UTC
Gerard Hareka wrote:
Alavaria Fera wrote:

EVE is harsh and cold, and you must adapt.



You mean safe arena pvp aka. war games are harsh and cold ??



Anyone who wants to try and interfere with them would be more than welcome to try.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Lapine Davion
Outer Ring Applied Logistics
#236 - 2013-03-12 18:19:36 UTC
Gerard Hareka wrote:
Alavaria Fera wrote:

EVE is harsh and cold, and you must adapt.



You mean...pvp...[is] harsh and cold ??


See, I can ignore half a post and change it's context too!

[b]Don't worry about posting with your main!  Post with your brain! "Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity."[/b]
Takseen
Federal Defense Union
Gallente Federation
#237 - 2013-03-12 18:31:47 UTC
Sariah Kion wrote:
Andski wrote:
Andski wrote:
Sariah Kion wrote:
No, no its not.

okay guy since you clearly know about sovereignty, explain the process of taking a station system in detail

notice that the npc alt has not responded to this question

Becasue its a strawman.
Its common knowledge how SOV works.

I don't know how SOV works, and I've been playing for years. I hear that's its kinda like FW Sov, but without any of the anti-blob mechanics, and more EHP.
Takseen
Federal Defense Union
Gallente Federation
#238 - 2013-03-12 18:43:55 UTC
Klymer wrote:
Andski wrote:
also i don't mean bumping npc corp taxes to 35%

i quite literally mean a hisec-wide tax


That wouldn't make a difference really as everything on the market would just increase by at least that much if not more to make up the difference. I'd also wager that you would see a large number of subscriptions lapse.


Once you dig deep enough this seems to be the main argument against nerfing highsec. Honestly if someone making slightly less spacebucks every month makes them quit Eve, were they really having that much fun to begin with?
LHA Tarawa
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#239 - 2013-03-12 19:01:17 UTC
When I see rants like the OP, it makes me wonder what he would prefer?

Weeks of grinding complexes, only to have everything you do to gain sov, undone as soon as you go to bed?

Having to play a different game to take sov?

Some kind of PVP scorecard, that can be easily manipulated by blowing up my own alts?




I think people have different visions of what sov should be for.

It seems from his gf comment, he thinks sov mechanics should encourage lots of small gang, fairly balanced, where skill of the player wins, fights.

He rants that sov is about capturing valuable stuff and then protecting it. Well to others, EVE is not about small gang, fairly balanced, where skill wins the fight, ship to ship PVP. For some of these people, EVE is about gathering as many friends as possible, into a big, powerful blob, with massive advantage, and crushing your enemy, to capture and hold valuable resources.

What you want from EVE is not what everyone wants from EVE. Perhaps, rather than lamenting that null sov warefare is not what you wish it were, perhaps you should go look for what you are looking for, in another area of EVE.



And finally, if null could not be made fairly safe and profitably so, then null would be just like low sec... mostly empty with the occasional pirate camp or random roam. Most of the small % of the player base that does live in null, is only there because it can be safe to be there.
Rek Seven
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#240 - 2013-03-12 19:09:40 UTC
Simple answer: because there is more than one problem with eve atm. Yeah SOV mechanics are bad but highsec also needs a nerf.

The wishlist is pretty much complete...