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Defense platform crystal for strip miners

Author
supernova ranger
The End of Eternity
#1 - 2013-03-10 06:00:37 UTC
Instead of mining an asteroid, after completing the strip miner cycle it de-spawns the asteroid and deploys a defense platform at the asteroids old location that aids the one who deployed it and/or his fleet.

The idea is to transform asteroids into defense structures to help build a turtle like defense for miners operating in hostile systems. Possibly, depending on the asteroid you transform gets you different stats and abilities.

It's an idea, probably not the best or the only one but an idea to open up low-sec mining

As it stands, mining in low-sec is unprofitable because:
a hulk with full orca boosts harvesting pristine jaspet makes at most > 45M/hr
security defense contract which will lock the system down and get you a few carrier support > 500M/hr
Ship investments > hulk 220M each, orca 900M, and freighter for hauling 1.3B

Risks:
-Someone could still overwhelm the security force and come to blow you up for giggles would stop the op and put your ships at risk while leaving them isolated in lowsec
-the security defense contract relies too much on trust and there is no game mechanics to support or enforce it

So to break even in lowsec, a mining op requires about 12 hulks minimum with orca and hauling support.......... An unprofitable fleet worth almost 5B
Destination SkillQueue
Doomheim
#2 - 2013-03-10 06:20:14 UTC
So a magical beam, that turns asteroids into heavily armed weapon platforms at no extra cost?
supernova ranger
The End of Eternity
#3 - 2013-03-10 06:35:56 UTC
All mining crystals break eventually, I see no reason these can't as well
Destination SkillQueue
Doomheim
#4 - 2013-03-10 06:39:04 UTC
supernova ranger wrote:
All mining crystals break eventually, I see no reason these can't as well

So how much would these crystals, that build structures and complex machinery in space cost? How would these structures operate and how long would they stay in space?
supernova ranger
The End of Eternity
#5 - 2013-03-10 06:45:00 UTC
Enough to balance the game and not too little in that they break the game
supernova ranger
The End of Eternity
#6 - 2013-03-10 06:52:46 UTC
As for their implementation it will always be a question of "it depends" - is any other features going to be released with it making it a worry to become OP, maybe firepower isn't the way and they should be logistic towers or maybe ewar based? It's a pandora's box that will change pvp at belts in the presence of a miner.

I'd say the item stays in space for as long as the op is in progress which can go no later then downtime.
Caldari 5
D.I.L.L.I.G.A.F. S.A.S
Affirmative.
#7 - 2013-03-10 07:00:23 UTC
Why am I getting the image of a Sentry drone with its damage and abilities dropped down to the equivalent of a Light Drone?
Destination SkillQueue
Doomheim
#8 - 2013-03-10 07:45:19 UTC
supernova ranger wrote:
As for their implementation it will always be a question of "it depends" - is any other features going to be released with it making it a worry to become OP, maybe firepower isn't the way and they should be logistic towers or maybe ewar based? It's a pandora's box that will change pvp at belts in the presence of a miner.

I'd say the item stays in space for as long as the op is in progress which can go no later then downtime.


I'm asking because the details are everything. An idea with no details is generally totally worthless. The whole concept is silly to begin with. If you want a defense structure, it makes sense for it to be a buildable structure you have to haul to the belt. This way you have added cost and risk for the added gain in security. That would make sense, offer new items for industrial characters to build and be somewhat balanced, if you create limits where and how many you can anchor in one place.

The costs won't just work againt you though. If it's fast, easy and doesn't cost anything, it's not going to be your defence aid. It's going to be waiting for you in every belt ready to annihilate anyone warping to the belt. Most likely such belt will be just defence platforms with a bait ship ready to tackle incoming ships. If it's just a logistics or E-war towers, they're unlikely to keep a mining fleet alive even against a small gang while being a huge boost to combat ships.

What I'm saying is, that you can't just look at it from your intended perspective. In all likelyhood it would be a minor use case for this feature, since a tackled miner is a dead miner. A balanced defence structure might give protection against solo small ships or delay your death a few seconds, but it won't alter the fundamental fact, that you're always going to be the loser in a fire fight with combat ships. Any system where you could change that fact with an automated structure is likely going to be OP and every combat pilot with a functioning brain is going to try to make the most of that advantage. It certainly is a pandora's box, but I'm not seeing a reason why to open it.
DataRunner Attor
Doomheim
#9 - 2013-03-10 14:02:48 UTC
I say no due to the simple thing of: It will be abused like hell

Can you imagine warping in on a belt just these magical sentry turrets? Could you even further imagine if you are by some chance at war with the person that turn this entire belt into sentry drones?

“Point out to me a person who has been harmed by an AFK cloaker and I will point out a person who has no business playing this game.”

Velicitia
XS Tech
#10 - 2013-03-10 17:04:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Velicitia
you have med slots and drones. Use them.

Quote:

-the security defense contract relies too much on trust and there is no game mechanics to support or enforce it


um, police the system with your corpies?

One of the bitter points of a good bittervet is the realisation that all those SP don't really do much, and that the newbie is having much more fun with what little he has. - Tippia

SGT FUNYOUN
Elysian Space Navy - 1st Fleet
#11 - 2013-03-10 18:18:15 UTC  |  Edited by: SGT FUNYOUN
Better idea...

Instead of tying up one of your strip miners (a rather precious commodity when you only have 3) with building defense structures with nano bot pumped lasers, AND wasting an asteroid by turning it into a gun pod, how about either having a structure, much like the station and gate gun pods, that you can carry out in the cargo hold of a even a procurer, and you set them up, and they take 5-15 minutes to finish building. They have similar weapons and capabilities as gate/station guns, but are much smaller, and are portable. They would not require a station to be tethered to they would simply sit out in space until they were either destroyed or you collapsed and removed them or you tractored them to a different spot.

Another idea you might be able to do... parasite pods.

Read The Short Victorius War by David Weber (Third Book in his "Honor Harrington" series), there is an idea, that the main character (Honor Harrington) comes up with, that is basically revamping old, outdated combat technology, to increase her ships' firepowers.

Basically, you would tow a parasite pod along behind you on a tractor beam, and said pod would have nice big schmexy missles. Once it uses them up though, the pod is useless unless you can reload it. Basically, it is a semi-disposable missle pod, with a link to your ships tgargeting systems. Yes you can reload it but, that takes pulling it into your cargobay, and reloading it there, then jettisoning it, and reattaching your tractor beam to it.

But it would basically carry 20 something or so missles and you could carry multiple pods if you had the beams for it.

It would NOT be a replacement for drones, and would NOT be anything LIKE drones. It is simply a missle pod floating along in space, that you tow behind you. Now, in the Honor Harrington book, they have tractor beams fitted by default on their ships, and can have tractors and weapons without the tractors taking high slots. This would not work in EVE. So, perhaps make these pods, deployed from your cargohold, and then they just set up and you have missle batteries just floating around you that you can tractor around if you have a tractor beam.
supernova ranger
The End of Eternity
#12 - 2013-03-10 21:36:00 UTC
SGT FUNYOUN wrote:
Better idea...

Instead of tying up one of your strip miners (a rather precious commodity when you only have 3) with building defense structures with nano bot pumped lasers, AND wasting an asteroid by turning it into a gun pod, how about either having a structure, much like the station and gate gun pods, that you can carry out in the cargo hold of a even a procurer, and you set them up, and they take 5-15 minutes to finish building. They have similar weapons and capabilities as gate/station guns, but are much smaller, and are portable. They would not require a station to be tethered to they would simply sit out in space until they were either destroyed or you collapsed and removed them or you tractored them to a different spot.

Another idea you might be able to do... parasite pods.

Read The Short Victorius War by David Weber (Third Book in his "Honor Harrington" series), there is an idea, that the main character (Honor Harrington) comes up with, that is basically revamping old, outdated combat technology, to increase her ships' firepowers.

Basically, you would tow a parasite pod along behind you on a tractor beam, and said pod would have nice big schmexy missles. Once it uses them up though, the pod is useless unless you can reload it. Basically, it is a semi-disposable missle pod, with a link to your ships tgargeting systems. Yes you can reload it but, that takes pulling it into your cargobay, and reloading it there, then jettisoning it, and reattaching your tractor beam to it.

But it would basically carry 20 something or so missles and you could carry multiple pods if you had the beams for it.

It would NOT be a replacement for drones, and would NOT be anything LIKE drones. It is simply a missle pod floating along in space, that you tow behind you. Now, in the Honor Harrington book, they have tractor beams fitted by default on their ships, and can have tractors and weapons without the tractors taking high slots. This would not work in EVE. So, perhaps make these pods, deployed from your cargohold, and then they just set up and you have missle batteries just floating around you that you can tractor around if you have a tractor beam.


I like the idea but keep it to it's own form post - it's another idea so making a link to it's form post would be a better idea
supernova ranger
The End of Eternity
#13 - 2013-03-10 21:44:17 UTC
Destination SkillQueue wrote:
supernova ranger wrote:
As for their implementation it will always be a question of "it depends" - is any other features going to be released with it making it a worry to become OP, maybe firepower isn't the way and they should be logistic towers or maybe ewar based? It's a pandora's box that will change pvp at belts in the presence of a miner.

I'd say the item stays in space for as long as the op is in progress which can go no later then downtime.


I'm asking because the details are everything. An idea with no details is generally totally worthless. The whole concept is silly to begin with. If you want a defense structure, it makes sense for it to be a buildable structure you have to haul to the belt. This way you have added cost and risk for the added gain in security. That would make sense, offer new items for industrial characters to build and be somewhat balanced, if you create limits where and how many you can anchor in one place.

The costs won't just work againt you though. If it's fast, easy and doesn't cost anything, it's not going to be your defence aid. It's going to be waiting for you in every belt ready to annihilate anyone warping to the belt. Most likely such belt will be just defence platforms with a bait ship ready to tackle incoming ships. If it's just a logistics or E-war towers, they're unlikely to keep a mining fleet alive even against a small gang while being a huge boost to combat ships.

What I'm saying is, that you can't just look at it from your intended perspective. In all likelyhood it would be a minor use case for this feature, since a tackled miner is a dead miner. A balanced defence structure might give protection against solo small ships or delay your death a few seconds, but it won't alter the fundamental fact, that you're always going to be the loser in a fire fight with combat ships. Any system where you could change that fact with an automated structure is likely going to be OP and every combat pilot with a functioning brain is going to try to make the most of that advantage. It certainly is a pandora's box, but I'm not seeing a reason why to open it.
The turrets don't have to aggres on warp in, open fire and then they go to work defending you - how u get it into space is up to who ever I just though a crystal would be an easy thing for ccp to make design wise - im sure there are already models of turrets or something in missions to resuse
Rroff
Antagonistic Tendencies
#14 - 2013-03-10 22:59:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Rroff
This topic gave me a vague idea of how lowsec mining could become more interesting tho its not a thought out idea.

Deadspace mining pockets that are only reachable via sub-capital only accel gates in which you stake your claim by putting up what is essentially a small POS (no medium or large POSes) which give some protection for the miners. After a month the pocket despawns and any anchored structures become offline and unanchored.

EDIT: So basically an "ORE Mining Outpost" a modified Gal Small Control Tower designed for rapid erection/decomissioning but can only use refining arrays and some basic defences, can't be used for labs, etc.
Sir Dragon
Einherjar Yggdrasils
#15 - 2013-03-11 01:00:48 UTC
Resolution:
Join an alliance that has interests in mining,
that exact same way you are refering to in this senario.

When mining, those long hours,
start talking about the general out lyings
of this idea, and get feed back.

Do not expect that each person would agrre with the exact same resolution that you would want.
Try to maintain it will result in arguments and general ego related problems.

When your mining corp or alliance has given you enough feedback,
reguarding idea, that they agree with,
tell them help you BUMP , the discussion thread in these fourms.

Bump, refering to addind a +1 comment , thus the discusion geos to top of fisrt page.


---
Sounds like a rig and or module you put on a ship, that turns it into an un moving tankathon, that pew pews PVP'ers.
Pantera Home Videos:    http://pktube.onepakistan.com/video/ck2ykdBrDRM/Pantera-Vulgar-Video-Full-Completo.html  ;  http://pktube.onepakistan.com/video/xpma3u7OjfU/Pantera-Watch-It-Go-Full-Completo-CD1.html ;    http://pktube.onepakistan.com/video/yyO9rAx8eoQ/Pantera-Watch-It-Go-Full-Completo-CD2.html .
Azrael Dinn
Imperial Mechanics
#16 - 2013-03-11 10:03:06 UTC
Even better would be to allow the mining lasers to be pointed to ships and let them do some damage. Yes alot of miners means more damage but hey they are still lasers so why not.

Would do the same thing your thinking basicly but there would be no need to implement any complex game mechanics that turn asteroids into "sentry roids".

and here comes the cloaky / pirare / ganger cries...

After centuries of debating and justifying... Break Cloaks tm

Velicitia
XS Tech
#17 - 2013-03-11 10:46:27 UTC
Azrael Dinn wrote:
Even better would be to allow the mining lasers to be pointed to ships and let them do some damage. Yes alot of miners means more damage but hey they are still lasers so why not.

Would do the same thing your thinking basicly but there would be no need to implement any complex game mechanics that turn asteroids into "sentry roids".

and here comes the cloaky / pirare / ganger cries...


Also, new focusing crystals:

-9x% cycle time (get cycle time in line with medium beams)
Damage, tracking, and range bonuses (or penalties) as such with the various laser crystal flavors.

One of the bitter points of a good bittervet is the realisation that all those SP don't really do much, and that the newbie is having much more fun with what little he has. - Tippia

Mars Theran
Foreign Interloper
#18 - 2013-03-11 11:17:09 UTC
You're joking right? I'd give you a 0/10 but it's almost funny so you get a 4 instead. +1 for the RTS work-in. Roll
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Verity Sovereign
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#19 - 2013-03-11 15:02:04 UTC
An anchorable sentry platform that Industrials could haul into a belt wouldn't be too bad I guess....

but the ability to anchor these things everywhere could easily be abused...

Maybe they have to be assigned to a ship that is on grid and counts toward that ships drone control limit, much like fighters from a carrier are assigned to other ships.

Basically, they'd be "super-sentry drones" that take time to anchor and online, and 5 would be a threat for a lone PvE fit cruiser.

Get a few barges in there, each controlling 5 platforms... and it would be hard for a lone ship to stay and fight.... although it may be able to gank all the barges first, and thus offline all the sentries.
Tanked procurors might be difficult, untanked Covetors, would pop too fast for the sentries to help
Jacid
Corvix.
#20 - 2013-03-11 18:01:17 UTC
I think deep down we all want some sort of automated defense system.. or anchorable gun pods or something that essentially allows a smaller force to compete against a larger force at the expense of mobility / or isk. I like the idea on principle but i don't think mining lasers converting asteroids to defense platforms is exactly it. One thing i will say is we already have combat multipliers as anchorable objects in the form of warp disruption bubbles for null sec/wh space so something similar to this in eve future isn't necessarily unprecedented
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