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The Two CSMs of EVE Online

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Author
Orion Guardian
#61 - 2011-10-14 13:51:54 UTC
Anela Cistine wrote:
non judgement wrote:

On a side note: Goons and Test are big teaching corps? For some reason I never thought of Test and Goons as teaching new players. Maybe they do, but I think ít's a very small part of what they really do and not their main focus.


Training new players is one of the most important things we do. We have a very small recruitment pool: we don't recruit eve players to join goons, we recruit goons to come play eve. That means that every single new goon is tremendously valuable to us. Because we have just a trickle of new players most of the time, our training isn't as organized as Eve Uni, obviously. During our annual newbie drive we'll run a few actual classes, but most of the time it is more informal than that.


To some extent we teach them Eve the same way throwing a child into deep water teaches her to swim. At times people have accused us of trying to generate lag by bringing "alts" in T1 frigates and T1 cruisers to a fleet fight, but those aren't alts, those are newbies. We want our newbies on the battlefield in their in their little rifters the first day they play Eve Online. Yes they die if anyone looks in their direction and it is terrible for our k/d ratio, but we keep giving them piles of free pre-fit rifters until they learn how to fly small tacklers like a pr0, or they finish training for something more durable. Between fights we have our wiki, videos, in-game help channel, mentors, squads, and the Boot Camp subforum to explain what is going on. We spend about 500 million a month on free stuff for newbies at the alliance level, plus squads have their own programs like giving newbies 103 free skill books, free cruisers, free implants, and other things.


I've seen public recruiting PVP corps that won't even look at anyone with less than 10 or 15 million skill points. That is insane. How many of those skill points are wasted on mining, mission running, production, or other skills that are completely worthless for a PVP character? Not to mention all the bad habits they will pick up after months of running level 2 missions in "safe" space as they wait for the skills to train. You can't expect someone to spend 9,999,999 skillpoints as a care bear and suddenly morph into a grizzly when they hit 10,000,000.


Plus, newbies are awesome to be around. The better you get at Eve the more insufferable you become, and that's a fact. Lol Little bees, best bees. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vfv1QtZDirY


Our buddies in TEST explained it pretty well here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=96b7Jk5xCTQ



And again I wonder why people hate g00ns or Test ;)

Anyway: I foud out about the mechanic used I I personally findthat rather elaborate and had required someone to think a bit about how to do it, so I don't have such a big problem with it as it requires quite a bit of work to setup the whole thing I doubt all of Empire will do that now.
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#62 - 2011-10-14 14:03:05 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Rico Minali wrote:
Damn them for using a game mechanic cleverly to achieve a result...
Seeing as how up until very recently, that very use was deemed an exploit, yes.


It wasn't that long ago that adding scan probes to the DScan was an exploit too.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016

KaarBaak
Squirrel Team
#63 - 2011-10-14 14:29:24 UTC
Dalloway Jones wrote:
OP is creepy. Like "stalker ex" creepy.


My impression.

Dum Spiro Spero

Rico Minali
Sons Of 0din
#64 - 2011-10-14 14:29:34 UTC
Karim alRashid wrote:
Rico Minali wrote:
Damn them for using a game mechanic cleverly to achieve a result...


Your sarcasm aside, the point is not using a game mechanic cleverly, but using it in unintended ways.

cf. POS bowling, evading CONCORD or changing corps while in space to surprise war targets - all pretty well within game mechanics.

Of course, you may argue that the possibility to create a decshield was intended way back when CCP introduced increasing costs for multitude of wardecs and I really can't prove to you that it was unintended,
as well as you can't prove to me that it was intended.

So, it's matter of opinion whether this is how it should be or just an oversight from CCP devs.

And people just voice their opinion, like they are supposed to do on this facility called "forums".


I do see the point from both sides actually anyway, just couldnt resist a dig.

Wardecs are broken, everyone, including ccp know this. One major issue is the use of wardecs simply to grief and lets face it that is used SO very much. It shouldnt be that easy. Eve Uni however is large enough in itself to not be griefed and can defend itself, so in this case no, there isnt any sympathy for them. There isnt yet a middle ground that makes sense and would actually be implementable, lots of ideas but usually they are from one side or teh other who either want to make griefing easier or to make their corporation super safe, the answer isnt a simple one.

So, no, it isnt ideal to allow the tactic to be used but until wardecs are made fairer to both the aggressor and the victim of wars what do ccp do? Wardecs need a complete overhaul.

Trust me, I almost know what I'm doing.

Big Jobs
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#65 - 2011-10-14 14:41:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Big Jobs
The Irony is this:

1) When the Privateer Alliance are NOT exploiting (at no point was what they were doing classed as an exploit by CCP) - CCP step in and change the rules specificaly to nerf them.

2) When the E-Uni ARE exploiting. As their attempt to avoid war were classed as an exploit up until the GMs announcement earlier this week - CCP not only do not step in to change the rules, they throw up their hands and legalise the exploit!!!!

You couldnt make it up!

*A Brief Recap*


2007-2008 Privateer alliance, a ragtag mish mash of mercs, reformed pirates, bored vets, noobs, and drifters wardec hundereds of the self proclaimed "powerbloc" alliances to test the mettle of their "leet pvpers".

With a few exceptions, the 0.0 leet alliance are found to be woeful and they die in droves, their mouths agape in astonishment as they find their pod floating in space - as a unruly bunch of renegades wipe the floor with their comrades.

The majority of the 0.0 alliances proved so easy to defeat, Privateers decided to up the challenge and dec all of them.... at once. And everyone else as well. The tears from the 0.0ers flodded the forums. At the time you would generaly have 5 Privatter posts on the front page of the forums with 0.0ers whining.

CCP steps in.

And the infamous Alliance P nerf hits tranquality. The only alliance (at the time) to have CCP step in specificaly with a change of game mechanics designed to destroy the alliance. A nerf actualy NAMED after the alliance (and hurridley changed into Alliance X when people pointed out the DeV had forgotten to edit it out).

The first major dump in the sandbox. A seminal moment in the decline of EvE into the sorry state it is today where the game actualy has a countdown to "ship spinning" as an advertising boast.

At the time, I, and many many others told CCP that the nerf was going to open a HUGE can of worms. They did not listen. They were fearless even back then you see.

And so it was proven, over the following years we have had constant abuses of the system. Some clamped down on (Imune alliance) and some not. Thousands of petitions for the GMs to deal with. Loopholes being shut opening new ones up. So much frustration on the part of the players and the Staff dealing with the issue.

Luckily we are getting scary vampires and can play with 12 year old hyper head shotting kiddies soon so it will be all worth while!

TLDR

+ 1 Feel like a chump that DESPITE all the constant CCP let downs over years of play, I was starting to have a glimer of hope in CCP with the latest dev blogs.... And then this.
Vachir Khan
Rugged Ruff and Ready
#66 - 2011-10-14 14:44:10 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Vachir Khan wrote:
Per usual, it'll need a lot of abuse of this mechanic (previously called exploit) and a lot of whining before this gets turned around by CCP. So all this posting and shouting is a GOOD thing. The more we shout about it, the more people reply to it how it's "not at all a bad thing" the more coverage it gets and the more people start to use it.

And once corporations start mass using this mechanic (previously called exploit) then finally CCP, the lumbering hulk that it is, will wake up, give it 2 seconds of attention and nerf it into the ground. So please, do keep posting, shouting and replying in threads like this and please, PLEASE, every corp should start using this mechanic (previously called exploit). That's the fastest way to get it taken care of.
Give me ~35 days, and I'll have DecShield Alliance up and running from scratch.

I'm thinking of pricing it at 2M ISK to shed your wardec (obviously with a bulk discount if you get decced more than once in a month, because I'm a nice person) to cover the upkeep fee.

What do you think? Does it sound like a reasonable plan?


I think that sounds terribly familiar to something but I can't quite remember what it was... It's a great plan and you should go ahead with this, please don't forget to advertise it everywhere possible. In a short while we will have zero wars in EVE and this will stay for years to come, due to your effort!
Gogurt
#67 - 2011-10-14 14:47:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Gogurt
People don't like eve-uni because of how cocky they are, they make noobs wait a month in a queue to join with the possibility of a flat out rejection. Sometimes I'll lurk in the E-Uni channel and just this month there were dozens of complaints and apparent rejections. They told them "lol, not our loss, we get 50 aps a day" I, at least was like >.> ...wtf...

So hearing about favoritism EVE-Uni receives from CCP kind of rubs me the wrong way to even though I have no interest in their wars or policies. It's not like they really do anything but empire pvp.. so ... I mean there aren't real classes that could possibly consist of any value that meet in space besides pvp.... they're really just a large RP empire blob corp

Why you would want to roleplay as a student or teacher? Maybe you never went to college? Maybe unrequited love for you 6th grade teacher.. I dunno. Maybe they were bullied
Poetic Stanzitroll
Doomheim
#68 - 2011-10-14 15:36:15 UTC
It's pretty clear.

Docking games are legitimate uses of in-game mechanics to avoid war targets.

Dec shields are illegitimate uses of in-games mechanics to avoid war targets.

I really don't understand the confusion?

-Check out my blog, it's the best!

Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#69 - 2011-10-14 15:39:16 UTC
Vachir Khan wrote:
In a short while we will have zero wars in EVE and this will stay for years to come, due to your effort!
With or without sarcasm, it's a win-win. Twisted
Jade Constantine
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction
#70 - 2011-10-14 15:44:52 UTC
Anela Cistine wrote:
non judgement wrote:

On a side note: Goons and Test are big teaching corps? For some reason I never thought of Test and Goons as teaching new players. Maybe they do, but I think ít's a very small part of what they really do and not their main focus.


Training new players is one of the most important things we do. We have a very small recruitment pool: we don't recruit eve players to join goons, we recruit goons to come play eve. That means that every single new goon is tremendously valuable to us. Because we have just a trickle of new players most of the time, our training isn't as organized as Eve Uni, obviously. During our annual newbie drive we'll run a few actual classes, but most of the time it is more informal than that.


To some extent we teach them Eve the same way throwing a child into deep water teaches her to swim. At times people have accused us of trying to generate lag by bringing "alts" in T1 frigates and T1 cruisers to a fleet fight, but those aren't alts, those are newbies. We want our newbies on the battlefield in their in their little rifters the first day they play Eve Online. Yes they die if anyone looks in their direction and it is terrible for our k/d ratio, but we keep giving them piles of free pre-fit rifters until they learn how to fly small tacklers like a pr0, or they finish training for something more durable. Between fights we have our wiki, videos, in-game help channel, mentors, squads, and the Boot Camp subforum to explain what is going on. We spend about 500 million a month on free stuff for newbies at the alliance level, plus squads have their own programs like giving newbies 103 free skill books, free cruisers, free implants, and other things.


I've seen public recruiting PVP corps that won't even look at anyone with less than 10 or 15 million skill points. That is insane. How many of those skill points are wasted on mining, mission running, production, or other skills that are completely worthless for a PVP character? Not to mention all the bad habits they will pick up after months of running level 2 missions in "safe" space as they wait for the skills to train. You can't expect someone to spend 9,999,999 skillpoints as a care bear and suddenly morph into a grizzly when they hit 10,000,000.


Plus, newbies are awesome to be around. The better you get at Eve the more insufferable you become, and that's a fact. Lol Little bees, best bees. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vfv1QtZDirY


Our buddies in TEST explained it pretty well here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=96b7Jk5xCTQ




I never thought I'd see the day when I preferred the Goon approach to Eve to the Eve Uni approach. Its strange times we're living in.

The True Knowledge is that nothing matters that does not matter to you, might does make right and power makes freedom

Lady Go Diveher
Doomheim
#71 - 2011-10-14 15:52:24 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Vachir Khan wrote:
In a short while we will have zero wars in EVE and this will stay for years to come, due to your effort!
With or without sarcasm, it's a win-win. Twisted


Please, please do it. I will even help you run it.

The sooner people learn why we are "whining" the better.

This isn't a change to help noobs avoid wardecs, it is a unilateral change allowing anyone to avoid any wardec.

This includes 0.0 alliances who can now create alt corps for logistics, and keep them immune from AD0PT / whoever.

Pro change, CCP.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#72 - 2011-10-14 16:06:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Lady Go Diveher wrote:
Please, please do it. I will even help you run it.

The sooner people learn why we are "whining" the better.
~30 days to get to Empire Control V, but yeah, on my way…

Hmm… how many moons are there in highsec? I'm sure you can get dotlan to spit out a number, but… :effort:

And hey, even if they figure out why this is a particularly bad idea and revert the change, I get an alliance-creation alt, and that's another handy service to provide. So, really, win-win-win. Lol
Astrid Stjerna
Sebiestor Tribe
#73 - 2011-10-14 16:15:45 UTC
Poetic Stanziel wrote:
Thorn Galen wrote:
The Op has made it clear the the GM's say it is not an exploit, or am I wrong ?

They are avoiding 72 billion ISK per month in CONCORD fees running their 19 corp decshield. That "exploit" is not commonly known, and apparently EVE University wishes that to remain a "sekrit". The exploit was given to them by CCP. EVE University can remain war free at no little cost to themselves (which I would call an exploit, even if CCP has given them special privilege to make use of it.)


What they're doing is actually considered a valid buisness practice in some countries in RL.

Japan, for example, builds giant corporate alliances called keiretsu; they pool resources to defend against hostile takeovers and minimize economic risk. Each member company owns small shares in the others, so if one company is threatened with a takeover, the keiretsu as a whole is sufficiently placed to block the attempt.

A 19-corp decshield is just such a strategy -- protect your assets with a 'united front', so that a wardec on one is unwise.

I can't get rid of my darn signature!  Oh, wait....

Lyris Nairn
Perkone
Caldari State
#74 - 2011-10-14 16:16:54 UTC
I clicked this thread expecting a whine about Goons & Friends running the CSM.

I was pleasantly surprised by an entirely different conspiracy theory!

Sky Captain of Your Heart

Reddit: lyris_nairn Skype: lyris.nairn Twitter: @lyris_nairn

Herzog Wolfhammer
Sigma Special Tactics Group
#75 - 2011-10-14 16:21:01 UTC

I didn't know jack squat about Eve-U before this thread. Now I have respect for the concept. It's a player-drive solution against this sort if thing.

Bring back DEEEEP Space!

KaarBaak
Squirrel Team
#76 - 2011-10-14 16:48:00 UTC

By definition, if CCP doesn't think it's an exploit, it's not an exploit. Maybe it was an exploit, but is no longer. People should use the correct terminology. It's now a 'valid game mechanic.'

Dum Spiro Spero

Barakkus
#77 - 2011-10-14 16:53:25 UTC
Yay for the ignore functionality. I no longer see Tom Gerrard threads or Xenuria...add one more to the list...

http://youtu.be/yytbDZrw1jc

Poetic Stanziel
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#78 - 2011-10-14 16:54:21 UTC
Jade Constantine wrote:
I never thought I'd see the day when I preferred the Goon approach to Eve to the Eve Uni approach. Its strange times we're living in.


The core concept of EVE Online is non-consensual PvP. That anyone, anywhere can **** on your day.

The Goons have always embraced this aspect of EVE.

EVE University has always fought hard against it, petitioned CCP against it.
Evelgrivion
Origin.
Black Legion...
#79 - 2011-10-14 16:59:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Evelgrivion
I'm going to ignore the rabble thus far to say that the high sec war declaration mechanics are in desperate need of an overhaul. War declaration "immunity" by forcing war declarations to be prohibitively expensive is one of those things that makes the need more urgent. As it stands, there is no real way to win a war, which limits their value to creating an involuntary sustained PVP environment. War declaration avoidance removes the one value War Declarations have in high security space.

I'm not going to bash EVE University for taking advantage of it, because lets be honest; it would be stupid of them not to. However, the problem really does need to be fixed with a good, well thought out game design solution, and it needs to be done sooner rather than later. This problem was supposed to be addressed two years ago, to no avail.
Vyl Vit
#80 - 2011-10-14 17:09:56 UTC
Poetic Stanziel wrote:
Vyl Vit wrote:
Anyone that war decs EVE U should use mental floss more frequently. There may even be a few scrip bottles in the med chest that require some attention.

Why not just run a bus over the school kids in the crosswalk. That'll give you a sense of power!

Half their members are carebear lifers. Thirty-five percent are 4-8 months old. And fifteen percent are newbies. (You can run the stats on their full member list, available on their website.) They welcome newbies, but they're not a newbie corporation.

Besides, no one in this game should be able to recuse themselves from the Sandbox.


Wait. I get it. You excel at pointing out irrelevancies. Everyone has to have a calling in life. I'm glad you found yours.

Paradise is like where you are right now, only much, much better.