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ORE ship reimbursement and upcoming expansion

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Asmodai Xodai
#81 - 2013-03-08 18:18:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Asmodai Xodai
Tippia wrote:
Whitehound wrote:
Some have already said that they did not benefit from it and it is the reason they are asking for a reimbursement.
If they didn't benefit from it, they shouldn't have trained it to begin with. Their poor decision-making skills are not grounds for compensation.


So let me get this straight for future reference. When training a skill, I am supposed to magically know that sometime in the future they will remove requirements for the skill which I don't want, will be useless to me, and will be no benefit to me, yet I am forced to train those requirements that I don't have use for anyway when training this skill. Now, when I don't magically know these things, I "shouldn't have trained it to begin with," and this reflects "poor decision making skills." Got it.

Earlier I said that this forum is obviously infested with idiots and trolls, but I wasn't sure which. I think I have my answer now: idiots.
Whitehound
#82 - 2013-03-08 18:36:08 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Whitehound wrote:
Some have already said that they did not benefit from it and it is the reason they are asking for a reimbursement.
If they didn't benefit from it, they shouldn't have trained it to begin with. Their poor decision-making skills are not grounds for compensation.

They had no choice if they wanted to get into an Orca.

Loss is meaningful. Therefore is the loss of meaning likewise meaningful. It is the source of all trolling.
Solstice Project
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#83 - 2013-03-08 18:57:57 UTC
What exactly is the point of this thread, besides ranting about things that won't change ?
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#84 - 2013-03-08 19:05:39 UTC
Whitehound wrote:
Tippia wrote:
Whitehound wrote:
Some have already said that they did not benefit from it and it is the reason they are asking for a reimbursement.
If they didn't benefit from it, they shouldn't have trained it to begin with. Their poor decision-making skills are not grounds for compensation.

They had no choice if they wanted to get into an Orca.

Nobody forced them to train for an Orca. In fact many people who probably will train for an Orca after the change purposefully did NOT train it up before hand due to the load of other skills required... because they preferred not to train the other skills that they would likely never use on that character.

Training for an Orca was a voluntary decision.
Not putting the other skills to use that you had to train is a voluntary decision.
The abilities those skills give your character has not changed.
If you did train for an Orca, you will be able to do exactly every single thing you could do before, you have lost nothing.

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.
Solstice Project
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#85 - 2013-03-08 19:09:53 UTC
Ranger 1 wrote:
words
Why even try ? You KNOW it's no use.
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#86 - 2013-03-08 19:32:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Ranger 1
Solstice Project wrote:
Ranger 1 wrote:
words
Why even try ? You KNOW it's no use.

It makes me happy. Big smile

When CCP reimbursed the learning skills they clearly pointed out what their parameters were for skill point reimbursement. They reiterated them again quite clearly this time. The reason why they were so specific was because, as they and most of the EvE community pointed out, that the reimbursement (and the system developed to support it) would be used as an excuse to try and justify reimbursement for every single balance and skill related tweak that would come down the pipe from that point on.

... and they (we) were right, as this thread so clearly points out.

I love being proven correct. Smile

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.
Whitehound
#87 - 2013-03-08 19:35:40 UTC
Ranger 1 wrote:
Nobody forced them to train for an Orca.

I know! It is strange how some players stick with the game even after years.

Loss is meaningful. Therefore is the loss of meaning likewise meaningful. It is the source of all trolling.
Arcaus Rotrau Romali
Empyrean Enterprise Conglomerate
#88 - 2013-03-08 20:16:21 UTC
I can train into a freighter in about 16 days now or probably twice as long after the change ... I'll deal with it.
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#89 - 2013-03-08 20:20:14 UTC  |  Edited by: RubyPorto
Asmodai Xodai wrote:
You keep quoting 'sunk costs' like it is some kind of magical term or something. It sounds like you just got out of a business class. 'Sunk costs' is irrelevant here, because I'm not asking what decision I should make going forward from this moment.

As to the remainder of what you wrote, I will try once again. Same exact scenario we have now, but let's change some parameters.

1. First, let's put YOUR skin in the game. It isn't me that is affected by this, but YOU.

2. You didn't just lose a month or two skilling into something. Let's say you lost 2 full years. Yes, two full years because CCP came out with some new ultra-mega titan, and you wanted it. You teched straight to it, foregoing everything else you could have teched (economy, cruisers, battleships, etc). You stayed in frigates so you could tech to this.

3. The skill points which went into this ultra-mega titan can't go into anything else. They are useless outside of the mega-titan.

4. You aren't some veteran player who has teched to everything else he could possibly want and has nothing else he could throw skill points into (in other words, you aren't someone who stands to lose little if skill points are thrown away). You are a newer player who has teched to virtually nothing.

Now, when you are a few weeks away from getting into this death star, CCP pulls the rug out from under you, and lets all players get into it inside of a week.

All I did here was take the same situation and adjust variables (length of time spent teching, etc) to try and find out if this makes any difference to you or not. If it does, then we agree and you are simply quibbling about details thinking they have an effect on the general principle when they don't. If it doesn't, you are a troll, an alien, or a masochist.


1. Already true, so Ok.

2. Ok, sure.

3. You're deviating pretty far from your issue with the Orca (as the Orca's skills can be used for other ships), so you've already made your hypothetical situation irrelevant.

4. Then I probably shouldn't be training for something of such limited use that I would be devastated if I found that other people could train into it.

5. Then I get into it ["a few weeks" minus a week] earlier than I otherwise would have. (Also, in the case of the Orca, CCP gave more notice than the entire time it takes to train up from 0, so the comparable case would be CCP announcing the change over two years in advance, which would mean that I get my SuperTitan 2 years before anyone waiting for the patch.) I get my super titan, and I get it earlier than I expected to. I'm happy.

6. You actually changed quite a few very important things. Enough to make your comparison invalid. Like the fact that the current tree has numerous uses aside from flying the Orca, and that CCP is giving notice that exceeds the entire training time of the Orca.


Incidentally, the only reason I trained for an Orca was for its ability to haul cargo hidden from ship scanners. Now that it has lost that ability, my ability to fly Orcas has very little utility to me.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
Nariya Kentaya
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#90 - 2013-03-08 21:56:39 UTC
Krixtal Icefluxor wrote:
Nexus Day wrote:


What CCP has done is lower the barrier for competition.This is not the same as making a skill useless.



That much I do agree with.....most indeed.

Is CCP deciding to make everything easy all of a sudden ?

Lowering the barrier to compete is not equivalent to making it easier to compete. it just means more people with less experience will try and fail to become relevant.
Roime
Mea Culpa.
Shadow Cartel
#91 - 2013-03-08 23:25:46 UTC
Whitehound wrote:
Roime wrote:
Whether or not you use the skills you have trained out of your free will doesn't make a cause for reimbursement. It's your own personal choice not to mine even after training for a mining ship.

True.

Only is CCP going to change it, because CCP thinks these skill choices are unnecessary.

Many players knew about the lack of necessity, but accepted it as a part of the requirement for getting into an Orca, or else could they not have gotten into it. There was simply no choice for them.

The reason for why a reimbursement should be given is not just because a few players want it, this sure will always be the case when skills change, but because CCP is making this change and it invalidates players' skill choices of the past.

I am sure many Orca pilots will have trained Exhumers I in addition just to profit from this in their own way. These players should not get a reimbursement as they not only accepted it but used it for further training. Only those who did not should be allowed to reallocate some of their skill points. It is likely a very small group of people and also the reason why the discussion on this is largely biased, because most of who post here will not be part of this group.


The bolded part does make sense, I didn't think of it that way- it would appear that CCP sees the barge V as redundant.

Still it is quite impossible to decide who has benefited from training the barge V (from those who haven't trained exhumers), and probably that's why CCP made the choice of not reimbursing anyone.

I don't agree with the entitled attitudes, "I was forced to train something I didn't want" is really just bullshit. If having barge V really bugs people that much, then why train it. Get a friend with an Orca and save a whole month of training.

.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#92 - 2013-03-08 23:31:53 UTC
Asmodai Xodai wrote:
So let me get this straight for future reference. When training a skill, I am supposed to magically know that sometime in the future they will remove requirements for the skill which I don't want, will be useless to me, and will be no benefit to me, yet I am forced to train those requirements that I don't have use for anyway when training this skill.
No. When training a skill, you should ask yourself “does training this skill provide any benefit for me?”
If it doesn't, don't train it.
If it does, and you train it, then you're benefiting from it so there's no problem to begin with.
If it doesn't, and you train it anyway, then that's your problem.

If at any point in the future, the skill changes, you will still have benefited from it, and you will still benefit from it. The only way for that not to be true is if the skill and/or the underlying mechanics are removed, in which case you'll be reimbursed.

Whitehound wrote:
Tippia wrote:
Whitehound wrote:
Some have already said that they did not benefit from it and it is the reason they are asking for a reimbursement.
If they didn't benefit from it, they shouldn't have trained it to begin with. Their poor decision-making skills are not grounds for compensation.

They had no choice if they wanted to get into an Orca.

…and if they did, they benefited from it, so there's no reason for them to ask for reimbursement.
Asmodai Xodai
#93 - 2013-03-09 00:46:14 UTC
Quote:
Still it is quite impossible to decide who has benefited from training the barge V (from those who haven't trained exhumers), and probably that's why CCP made the choice of not reimbursing anyone.


Seems like it would be easy enough to me. Whoever protests that they had to train barge V and other crap to get into orca should have the option to have those skills removed from their skill tree, and those points placed somewhere else. However, if you are happy with barge V and use it, you have the option to keep it with no reimbursement.

I'm not saying you have to agree with that - you obviously don't. I'm saying it isn't 'quite impossible' to decide how to sort this out.

Quote:
"I was forced to train something I didn't want" is really just bullshit. If having barge V really bugs people that much, then why train it.


The bullshit is the absurd crap you and others keep spouting. It isn't rocket science - people trained it because it was a requirement to get into orca. And people train other crap they don't want or need to get into other things. But people accept this just fine... until the rug is pulled out and the rules are changed.

Saying someone has an entitled attitude when they played by the rules given them by CCP is what is bullshit. Again, you or others don't have to agree with anything said here - you obviously don't. But cut the lectures about people being entitled, blah blah.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#94 - 2013-03-09 00:55:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Asmodai Xodai wrote:
The bullshit is the absurd crap you and others keep spouting. It isn't rocket science - people trained it because it was a requirement to get into orca.
…which means they wanted to train it. Presumably, they wanted to train it because there was a benefit to it. Presumably, they got exactly the benefit they wanted at exactly the price they were willing to pay. So why should they be reimbursed for something that was entirely reasonable in terms of cost/benefit, when both the cost and the benefit they get are exactly the same as they were before?

Quote:
But people accept this just fine... until the rug is pulled out and the rules are changed.
No rug is being pulled out. They have exactly the benefits they wanted at the price they thought were fair.

Quote:
Saying someone has an entitled attitude when they played by the rules given them by CCP is what is bullshit.
…and no-one is saying that. What people are saying is that some whiners have entitlement issues when they believe that things remaining exactly the way they are should trigger some form of compensation or, as in this case, that getting ahead of new players should trigger compensation.
Ryuu Shi
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#95 - 2013-03-09 01:01:10 UTC
The only time anyone will EVER get skill reimbursements is when CCP has decided to remove said skill (Mining Barge) from the game forever and ever and ever and ever.....

Until then your stuck with it, cry about but please... get over it just as quickly as it made you go 'Raaawr i r mad!' Roll

Fly safe.

_**Noob **_isn't really a status, it's the online equivalent of a 5-year old calling you a poopy fart head.

  • Sun Tzu
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#96 - 2013-03-09 01:14:27 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Asmodai Xodai wrote:
But people accept this just fine... until the rug is pulled out and the rules are changed.
No rug is being pulled out. They have exactly the benefits they wanted at the price they thought were fair.


To be fair, the people who trained up for an Orca in order to have the ability to haul cargo immune to cargo scans and looting do not have exactly the benefits they wanted (a class that the OP has specifically excluded himself from, by mentioning that he has not finished training), so they might have a claim to complain about rug-pulling.

Of course, then they fall under the longstanding principle that you don't ever get SP reimbursed for nerfs. That's just the hazard you face when you train for things that are (or may be) overpowered. So they don't have a leg to stand on either.



And to everyone pointing out that you only get SP reimbursed for removed skills, there is an exception. If you mistakenly trained a skill that has no in-game effect, you might be eligible for reimbursement. Of course, that has very little bearing on the Orca pre-requisites, because they all have significant in-game effects.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
Asmodai Xodai
#97 - 2013-03-09 01:21:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Asmodai Xodai
What I find funny is all this pseudo-libertarian combined with Business 101 vernacular people keep throwing around - terms like "you had a choice," and "sunk costs." It all sounds like it was written by the same exact person using a bunch of different alts.

Well two can play at that game. For all you people getting reimbursed for destroyer and cruiser skills and what not, I say it shouldn't happen. YOU HAD A CHOICE to train into that stuff. YOU MADE THAT CHOICE. AND YOU BENEFITED. IT'S A SUNK COST. You should have no complaints.

Of course you will say it is different because the skills are being removed. But that's not the point. The point is to address your usage of all this dumb phraseology you keep throwing at me like "choice" and "benefit" blah blah. Quit using it - it doesn't work.

Quote:
…which means they wanted to train it. Presumably, they wanted to train it because there was a benefit to it. Presumably, they got exactly the benefit they wanted at exactly the price they were willing to pay.


Yup, so no reimbursement for cruisers or anything else. They wanted to train it, they trained it because there was a benefit, and they got that benefit at the price they were willing to pay. So "tough noogies," and glad you are on board.
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#98 - 2013-03-09 01:28:56 UTC
Asmodai Xodai wrote:
What I find funny is all this pseudo-libertarian combined with Business 101 vernacular people keep throwing around - terms like "you had a choice," and "sunk costs." It all sounds like it was written by the same exact person using a bunch of different alts.

Well two can play at that game. For all you people getting reimbursed for destroyer and cruiser skills and what not, I say it shouldn't happen. YOU HAD A CHOICE to train into that stuff. YOU MADE THAT CHOICE. AND YOU BENEFITED. IT'S A SUNK COST. You should have no complaints.

Of course you will say it is different because the skills are being removed. But that's not the point. The point is to address your usage of all this dumb phraseology you keep throwing at me like "choice" and "benefit" blah blah. Quit using it - it doesn't work.


The Destroyer and Battlecruiser skills are being removed from the game. Of course they should be reimbursed. You will no longer be receiving the benefit that you paid for with your choice of training priorities (the benefit is the ability to fly certain ships).

Now, answer the following.
1) When you chose to train for an Orca, did you believe that flying the Orca was worth the ~40d training time?
a) If Yes, The only effect the change will have on you is to either reduce your training time or leave it unchanged. Why does that make you unhappy?
b) If No, then why did you chose to train for it?
2) How can the price that other people might pay for something, at a different time than when you paid for that thing, have any possible effect on your decision making? In other words, do you throw a fit when milk goes on sale the day after you buy a gallon, or do you sit down and have a glass?

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
Asmodai Xodai
#99 - 2013-03-09 01:47:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Asmodai Xodai
RubyPorto wrote:

How can the price that other people might pay for something, at a different time than when you paid for that thing, have any possible effect on your decision making? In other words, do you throw a fit when milk goes on sale the day after you buy a gallon, or do you sit down and have a glass?


I think it is a dumb question. There are totally different sets of rules and assumptions about real world economies than the situation in Eve when you have a "God" so to speak (CCP) controlling the universe and making up rules as they go. Many people accept the rules of supply and demand in a free market, and tolerate some level of price fluctuation. Then again, others don't, and prefer to live under price controls.

There are other things I could bring up to counter your position. For instance, is it acceptable for me to charge more for milk to a black person than, say, a white? If you say no, I could use all the same logic you use above, invoke choice, invoke "how does the price paid by one person at one time affect the decision the other person made to buy at another time" blah blah.

EDIT: Question - would it be acceptable to you if CCP implemented a system where members of the SniggWaffe were charged more for everything (skills, goods, services, etc) than everyone else? If no, why not? After all, you could always use your freedom of choice to pay or not to pay. If you pay, you will benefit. And why does the price someone else pays have any bearing on your situation?

See how that works?
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#100 - 2013-03-09 01:49:50 UTC
Asmodai Xodai wrote:
...
Well two can play at that game. For all you people getting reimbursed for destroyer and cruiser skills and what not, I say it shouldn't happen. YOU HAD A CHOICE to train into that stuff. YOU MADE THAT CHOICE. AND YOU BENEFITED. IT'S A SUNK COST. You should have no complaints.

Technically I didn't. No matter how hard I try I can find racial BC or destroyer skills in the game at present. I was not and will not be afforded a chance to train them prior to them replacing skills for functionality I already have.

Also the point can and has been made that both decisions simply preserve a character's capabilities.