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CCP, how about some numbers

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Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
The Initiative.
#141 - 2013-03-08 15:00:28 UTC
Buzzy Warstl wrote:


I don't know, why don't you tell me after you've tried it.

Obviously you think that the game should be changed because somebody deserves something, despite what they seem to want being in direct conflict with other things they want.

That's called "cognitive dissonance", and it is powerful, uncomfortable, and makes people very cranky when they are dealing with it.

Cranky enough to make things up about the people who are making them uncomfortable by pointing out the truth.


Case in point, you don't know what you're talking about, but rather than take responsibility for your own ignorance, you simply allow yourself to believe I'm your problem or that I've done something wrong. Then you question my motivations (demonstrating an inability to deal with people who have differing philosophies about how things should work), not understanding that I'm not an industrialist and have no dog in this hunt.

That's just not at all mature on your part. Only you control what you do and what you know, it's not my fault if you are forming illogical opinions based on not one single actual fact. That's your fault and no one else's.
Dave Stark
#142 - 2013-03-08 15:07:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Dave Stark
LHA Tarawa wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:

what does it tell you? that there is 0 reason for a miner to go to null sec, as i stated originally.

although, me and malcanis did have a bet on that you'd casually ignore all of the evidence since it doesn't support your point. we were right on the money. i can't speak for malcanis but i'm having a bit of a giggle right now.


The biggest advantages to null living for a miner are:
1) the rorqual boosts that are significantly better than orca. Can't build or move a rorq into high.
2) Rocks that last 100+ cycles rather than 1-3 cycles means WAY less loss from partial cycles.
3) The really big mineral drains are caps and up. In null, you can mine, reprocess and build, all with minimal time hauling, and no high to low jump choke points.


What I recall from my time in null years ago was that trit was always in short supply. Got plenty of other minerals with no trouble, but the trit was a major bottleneck and had to be imported.

I'd have no issue with making the high sec rocks be only base, low be the 2nd tier (concentracter) and produce 2x the minerals of low, then have null/wh have the 3rd tier (dense) and produce 4x high version. This would help alleviate the trit bottleneck to null production. I doubt the null veld would crush high sec prices too much since the rocks are still in limited quantity in clusters, and mining belts in all but the few safest systems can be considered unwise.



with regards to boosts, that's a 14.5% difference in cycle time, however the difference between the large grav site, and scordite is 16%. even with superior boosts, high sec will still bag you more isk/hour if you're cherry picking scordite. not to mention, grav sites don't have 5% and 10% variants, high sec belts do. so, in reality the gap is even bigger.

as for the bigger asteroids, just pay attention in high sec and short cycle... just like you have to do in null sec. same effort, still more reward in high sec. on the other hand this is actually a legitimate benefit of null sec mining so i shouldn't be so flippant. however, that still isn't enough of an advantage for the myriad of other drawbacks facing the null sec miner.

what does hauling, reprocessing and building have to do with this?

yes, trit is the main bottleneck because people simply repeatedly flip the large grav site which contains no veld, pyrox, or plagi. hence the lack of low end minerals.

as i pointed out, simply adding more low ends to spod would be a big improvement and it'd stop null sec mining being a complete joke rather than making new asteroids or whatever, just simply adjust the minerals in the ores that already exist within the game.
Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
The Initiative.
#143 - 2013-03-08 15:10:38 UTC
HollyShocker 2inthestink wrote:


Not being educated in another area doesn’t make that persons argument less valid. There are lots of things many of us are ignorant about in game as well as real life.


That doesn't make any sense. You basically just said "a guy not knowing anything about the subject being discussed doesn't make his opinion of the subject being discussed less valid" LOL.

I'm sorry, but yes it does. You don't see me telling wormhole people nothing, because I know very little about wormholes. But I live in null and high sec, so I talk about that.

--
In my experience with these null sec vs high sec discussion, it usually comes from the pro-High Sec types whose opinions are based on supposition and superstition.

I'm serious about that, if you look at these discussions you will see verifiable facts, figures and links from people supporting a pro-null sec position. All you ever get from high sec people are "no, you just want me to play your way". And yet the high sec people think they are making some kind of valid point.

Stepping away from the game, the forums and simply speaking as a grown man, that's just NUTS and I find it scary that people, real flesh and blood human being actually think like this, like the actual insanity we see coming from high sec posters. Can self interest be so powerful as to destroy all reason?
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#144 - 2013-03-08 15:18:55 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
HollyShocker 2inthestink wrote:


Not being educated in another area doesn’t make that persons argument less valid. There are lots of things many of us are ignorant about in game as well as real life.


That doesn't make any sense. You basically just said "a guy not knowing anything about the subject being discussed doesn't make his opinion of the subject being discussed less valid" LOL.

I'm sorry, but yes it does. You don't see me telling wormhole people nothing, because I know very little about wormholes. But I live in null and high sec, so I talk about that.

--
In my experience with these null sec vs high sec discussion, it usually comes from the pro-High Sec types whose opinions are based on supposition and superstition.

I'm serious about that, if you look at these discussions you will see verifiable facts, figures and links from people supporting a pro-null sec position. All you ever get from high sec people are "no, you just want me to play your way". And yet the high sec people think they are making some kind of valid point.

Stepping away from the game, the forums and simply speaking as a grown man, that's just NUTS and I find it scary that people, real flesh and blood human being actually think like this, like the actual insanity we see coming from high sec posters. Can self interest be so powerful as to destroy all reason?

Also happens in every thread about ganking too.
Vince Snetterton
#145 - 2013-03-08 15:27:52 UTC
Dave Stark wrote:
LHA Tarawa wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:

what does it tell you? that there is 0 reason for a miner to go to null sec, as i stated originally.

although, me and malcanis did have a bet on that you'd casually ignore all of the evidence since it doesn't support your point. we were right on the money. i can't speak for malcanis but i'm having a bit of a giggle right now.


The biggest advantages to null living for a miner are:
1) the rorqual boosts that are significantly better than orca. Can't build or move a rorq into high.
2) Rocks that last 100+ cycles rather than 1-3 cycles means WAY less loss from partial cycles.
3) The really big mineral drains are caps and up. In null, you can mine, reprocess and build, all with minimal time hauling, and no high to low jump choke points.


What I recall from my time in null years ago was that trit was always in short supply. Got plenty of other minerals with no trouble, but the trit was a major bottleneck and had to be imported.

I'd have no issue with making the high sec rocks be only base, low be the 2nd tier (concentracter) and produce 2x the minerals of low, then have null/wh have the 3rd tier (dense) and produce 4x high version. This would help alleviate the trit bottleneck to null production. I doubt the null veld would crush high sec prices too much since the rocks are still in limited quantity in clusters, and mining belts in all but the few safest systems can be considered unwise.



with regards to boosts, that's a 14.5% difference in cycle time, however the difference between the large grav site, and scordite is 16%. even with superior boosts, high sec will still bag you more isk/hour if you're cherry picking scordite.

as for the bigger asteroids, just pay attention in high sec and short cycle... just like you have to do in null sec. same effort, still more reward in high sec. on the other hand this is actually a legitimate benefit of null sec mining so i shouldn't be so flippant. however, that still isn't enough of an advantage for the myriad of other drawbacks facing the null sec miner.

what does hauling, reprocessing and building have to do with this?

yes, trit is the main bottleneck because people simply repeatedly flip the large grav site which contains no veld, pyrox, or plagi. hence the lack of low end minerals.

as i pointed out, simply adding more low ends to spod would be a big improvement and it'd stop null sec mining being a complete joke rather than making new asteroids or whatever, just simply adjust the minerals in the ores that already exist within the game.


I have said many times in other threads that I advocate giving null sec easily attainable perfect refine, and the 75% cap on mineral refine at POS's is draconian and unfair. However, when you start advocating for extra minerals in null sec rocks, or the creation of null sec superveld and superscordite, that goes over any line of reasoning.

The bottleneck of low sec ores in null is based on null sec'd demand for the stuff. If no one is doing industry in null sec, then no mins should ever be mined in null. But that small cottage industry called supercap production, a null sec only mechanic, keeps poking up its tiny head. How many minerals have been locked into supercap hulls in the past years is a number no individual null sec player can ever provide, or rather, willingly provide, and even if some null sec player produced a number, there is zero chance anyone would believe him. The only people who supposedly would give an honest answer is CPP on that question.

Like I said umpteen times, if CCP actually ran a few SQL commands a lot of these suppositions (by me as well), would disappear like smoke before the strong wind of FACTS.

What would happen if CCP published how many minerals were actually utilized in null sec in the last 12 months, on a month by month basis, and then did that comparison for all the other sectors of space? What would happen if CCP published how much ISK from ratting was produced in null sec, and the average ISK/hour of active ratters (if the guy has a tick of zero, guess he is not ratting), and compared that to the average ISK/ hour of a high sec ratter and high sec miner?

I know what would happen. This thread would evaporate, and people would actually have to deal with some in-game reality, as opposed to campaigning to attack or defend high sec industry.
Dave Stark
#146 - 2013-03-08 15:37:26 UTC
Vince Snetterton wrote:
I have said many times in other threads that I advocate giving null sec easily attainable perfect refine, and the 75% cap on mineral refine at POS's is draconian and unfair. However, when you start advocating for extra minerals in null sec rocks, or the creation of null sec superveld and superscordite, that goes over any line of reasoning.



you already get perfect refine in nullsec, which is easy to obtain. you're asking for something that's already given in the game. refining isn't why null sec mining sucks.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#147 - 2013-03-08 15:39:28 UTC
Quote:

I know what would happen. This thread would evaporate, and people would actually have to deal with some in-game reality, as opposed to campaigning to attack or defend high sec industry.


Isk income of ratters and refine rates dont have anything to do with the lack of industry slots in null.
Buzzy Warstl
Quantum Flux Foundry
#148 - 2013-03-08 15:42:16 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
Buzzy Warstl wrote:


I don't know, why don't you tell me after you've tried it.

Obviously you think that the game should be changed because somebody deserves something, despite what they seem to want being in direct conflict with other things they want.

That's called "cognitive dissonance", and it is powerful, uncomfortable, and makes people very cranky when they are dealing with it.

Cranky enough to make things up about the people who are making them uncomfortable by pointing out the truth.


Case in point, you don't know what you're talking about, but rather than take responsibility for your own ignorance, you simply allow yourself to believe I'm your problem or that I've done something wrong. Then you question my motivations (demonstrating an inability to deal with people who have differing philosophies about how things should work), not understanding that I'm not an industrialist and have no dog in this hunt.

That's just not at all mature on your part. Only you control what you do and what you know, it's not my fault if you are forming illogical opinions based on not one single actual fact. That's your fault and no one else's.

Mature debate requires addressing the points made by the person you disagree with, not just insulting them. You said that yourself some time ago.

When was the last time you did that?

I know, you hate me for some reason, am I a threat to your feelings of superiority? I certainly refuse to admit that you are better than me in any way.

http://www.mud.co.uk/richard/hcds.htm Richard Bartle: Players who suit MUDs
LHA Tarawa
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#149 - 2013-03-08 15:43:19 UTC
Dave Stark wrote:

with regards to boosts, that's a 14.5% difference in cycle time, however the difference between the large grav site, and scordite is 16%..


I hope you are not cherry picking high, then using the average for the null clusters. No one mines out the spoud, and I hear even the omber and merc are now considered annoyance rocks. (I have not read the full thread so not sure the numbers you are using for null cluster).

If you are going to cherry pick one over the other, players cherry pick the clusters and mine out the belts. And, why? Because the time it takes to move belt to belt, and system to system, makes it more profitable to mine the full belt in high. Meanwhile, the extreme profit difference of those null clusters makes it very important to cherry pick.


Dave Stark wrote:

as for the bigger asteroids, just pay attention in high sec and short cycle...


I don't care how good you are at short-cycling, you still get waste. Especially if you are mining on 3 or 4 accounts.

Dave Stark wrote:

what does hauling, reprocessing and building have to do with this?


I was simply stating the advantages to null over high sec. In high, to find good belts, you usually have to travel a long distance to a trade hub to sell. This is time away from mining, dropping your effective isk/hr. In null, cluster respawn makes travel time much less.


Dave Stark wrote:

yes, trit is the main bottleneck because people simply repeatedly flip the large grav site which contains no veld, pyrox, or plagi. hence the lack of low end minerals.


That is not the only issue. Belts are more dangerous as they don't have to be scanned down. 100K veld rock is not going to get you a carrier, but a single 75K arc rock is more than enough high ends for that same build. AND, there is an unlimited supply of clusters, if you want to mine it out (usually only done with the large since it has the best ratio of high end/annoyance rocks). Veld in the belts is not auto respawn like the clusters.




Dave Stark wrote:

as i pointed out, simply adding more low ends to spod would be a big improvement and it'd stop null sec mining being a complete joke rather than making new asteroids or whatever, just simply adjust the minerals in the ores that already exist within the game.


Yes, that is not a bad solution to the low end bottleneck, and could ensure that null is always more profitable than high. Say, for exampe, 1000 m3 of croc produced its current high ends, but ALSO produced as much trit as veld. Bist produce high and Pyr as scord. A produced as much as plag plus the high ends.
Dave Stark
#150 - 2013-03-08 15:51:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Dave Stark
of course i'm comparing the two. you can cherry pick in empire, ore respawns in every system every 24hrs. null grav sites do not work like that, you have to mine everything in order to flip them. it's perfectly acceptable to compare high sec cherry picking to grav site flipping. you're free to argue it's not, but until those grav sites magically refill themselves at downtime, you'll be wrong.
it's a similar situation to "you must compare rorq bonuses to orca bonuses", which, i did.
Pak Narhoo
Splinter Foundation
#151 - 2013-03-08 15:53:39 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
I'm serious about that, if you look at these discussions you will see verifiable facts, figures and links from people supporting a pro-null sec position. All you ever get from high sec people are "no, you just want me to play your way". And yet the high sec people think they are making some kind of valid point.

Stepping away from the game, the forums and simply speaking as a grown man, that's just NUTS and I find it scary that people, real flesh and blood human being actually think like this, like the actual insanity we see coming from high sec posters. Can self interest be so powerful as to destroy all reason?


I had real hopes, in my previous corp to go *all* miner and builder in null, what I learned was that actually nobody there gives a crap once there. All they want is their kill board stats going up.
Still chewing on the idea of being a local supplier of stuff for others to blow up. who knows maybe one day people really hate going to Jita and want some local people do the production. Pipe dream I know. Straight
Vince Snetterton
#152 - 2013-03-08 16:02:14 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Quote:

I know what would happen. This thread would evaporate, and people would actually have to deal with some in-game reality, as opposed to campaigning to attack or defend high sec industry.


Isk income of ratters and refine rates dont have anything to do with the lack of industry slots in null.


Maybe not refine rates, but income ratting sure affects the usage of the slots.

You guys want 50 mfg slots at a Player owned station, just like an NPC station? No problem.
How about 100? How about 1000?

They will still go unused, because your players make far far more ISK per hour ratting, with a lot less clicking.
What you guys want is null sec industrialists to make as much per hour as some guy in a Vindi running forsaken hubs with fighter support from some Thannie parked at a POS.

And the only way that happens is you get a monopoly on T2 production, a brand new null sec game mechanic with 5-10 times the best high sec production rate, and brand new null sec only rocks with 10 times the yield of high sec rocks.

Station slots is not your problem. It never was. It all about the ISK/ hour.
LHA Tarawa
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#153 - 2013-03-08 16:03:45 UTC
Vince Snetterton wrote:
What would happen if CCP published how many minerals were actually utilized in null sec in the last 12 months, on a month by month basis, and then did that comparison for all the other sectors of space?


Way more minerals are used in null than high, because the caps and super caps take so many more minerals.

However, just because more minerals are used, does not mean that null industry is healthy. Producing all the low end stuff (frigs and cruisers) takes way more manufacturing slots per unit of mineral used than manufacturing capitals. Having to import all their frigates (do not know that tehy do, just an example) for lack of manufacturing slots would be a sign null industry sucks, but would not show up in your simply query on total minerals used.


Vince Snetterton wrote:

What would happen if CCP published how much ISK from ratting was produced in null sec, and the average ISK/hour of active ratters (if the guy has a tick of zero, guess he is not ratting), and compared that to the average ISK/ hour of a high sec ratter and high sec miner?


Again, probably not as easy as you may think. High sec missions with all the gates and such means shooting with multiple toons is done less often. In null, the high paying anoms are single pocket, so people warp in at range with a couple shooters and a logi alt, drop sentry drones and blast away without having to worry about navigation much... lock, fire, lock fire, lock fire. The result is that one player with 3 alts is making way more ISK per hour than the high sec mission runner... but it doesn't look that way because the null guy's income is split across 3 accounts while the high sec mission runner is getting all their income on a single account.

CCP has already said that right now, they don't even know which accounts are really the same player.

And, how do you eliminate the miners that are killing belt rats? In high , the rats pay a couple thousand. In null, the belt rats pay 1 million per BS.

Not to mention, how do you isolate the hard core high sec mission runners from the newbs doing L1s in their frig?

The raw numbers you are asking for would be misleading.




Vince Snetterton wrote:

I know what would happen. This thread would evaporate, and people would actually have to deal with some in-game reality, as opposed to campaigning to attack or defend high sec industry.


Because raw numbers you are asking for are meaningless and give a flawed, if not completely misleading picture of null vs. high.
Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
The Initiative.
#154 - 2013-03-08 16:05:41 UTC
Buzzy Warstl wrote:

Mature debate requires addressing the points made by the person you disagree with, not just insulting them. You said that yourself some time ago.



And again you're wrong. Mature debate requires knowing something about the thing being debated and being honest enough to admit that you don't if, indeed, you don't.. That's where you fail, yet you actually believe pointing out your failure is somehow an insult.

The truth can't, by definition, be an "insult". I and others are more than willing to have an actual conversation with you, but rather than learn first then opine, you opine then decide that the people who know more than you are somehow wrong...because they aren't you.

Quote:

I know, you hate me for some reason, am I a threat to your feelings of superiority? I certainly refuse to admit that you are better than me in any way.


I don't know you from Adam so how could I "hate" you?

What I hate is your "type", the kind of thinking that (among other obvious defects) deflects all fault and blame onto others, not because we deserve it, because you can't take the pain of admitting fault. Their seems to be a lot of your type in high sec, probably because the same people who can't accept the pain of admitting fault can't accept the pain of losing a contest (like when a ship gets blown up) in a video game.

As for my feelings of superiority, if such exist you oly fuel them with your incoherent screeching about how someone sitting at a computer perhaps thousands of miles from you "hates" you.

You're your own problem Buzzy. Fix that problem and you never have to deal with folks like me pointing out your problems lol.
Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
The Initiative.
#155 - 2013-03-08 16:11:52 UTC
Pak Narhoo wrote:


I had real hopes, in my previous corp to go *all* miner and builder in null, what I learned was that actually nobody there gives a crap once there. All they want is their kill board stats going up.


How many corps or alliances did you try? I ask because it sounds like the wrong corp.

One of the crazy things that happens is that someone will go to null sec in a bad corp or alliance, have a bad time (duh), the go back to empire, forever convinced about how "bad" null sec is, even after only a small and isolated experience with it.

I know plenty of miners and industry types who live in null and do their own things. I know quite a few null sec guys who never willingly engage in pvp or anything they don't want to.


Quote:

Still chewing on the idea of being a local supplier of stuff for others to blow up. who knows maybe one day people really hate going to Jita and want some local people do the production. Pipe dream I know. Straight


As i said, you just need to find the right alliance/corp in null sec with a good industrial wing. Despite what the high sec/haters crowd says, those groups exist.
LHA Tarawa
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#156 - 2013-03-08 16:14:55 UTC
Vince Snetterton wrote:

You guys want 50 mfg slots at a Player owned station, just like an NPC station? No problem.
How about 100? How about 1000?

They will still go unused, because your players make far far more ISK per hour ratting, with a lot less clicking.


So, what would it hurt to give them the extra slots then?



Vince Snetterton wrote:

What you guys want is null sec industrialists to make as much per hour as some guy in a Vindi running forsaken hubs with fighter support from some Thannie parked at a POS.


You really do need to keep up. With the ai change, no one uses fighters for anoms any more... and it is the havens that crank out top ISK. The warp their carrier in at 100, drop a gazillian sentry drones, and blast away... or warp a couple BSes in at 50, launch sentries, warp in the t1 logi, and blast away.


Vince Snetterton wrote:

And the only way that happens is you get a monopoly on T2 production, a brand new null sec game mechanic with 5-10 times the best high sec production rate, and brand new null sec only rocks with 10 times the yield of high sec rocks.

Station slots is not your problem. It never was. It all about the ISK/ hour.


Strawman much?
My suggestion was 4x the trit from null veld, but veld is in fairly short supply as the amount in clusters is next to nothing, and not that many belts are safe to mine in. There would still be a cap on the amount of trit coming from null based on the number of rocks that are available/safe.

Other suggestions would be to have the high end rocks give the same low ends as the high sec rocks + the high ends, per m3. So, this would be 2x the yield (low plus high), not 10x.

10x would not even be required to make mining in null as profitable as ratting in null anyway. A guy with 3 toons might be able to run havens and hubs for 100 million ISK an hour. Well, mining with 3 hulks and having a corp mate to boost and haul, he can make 60 million + mining null. So, 2x would even cover the gap in mining/ratting profitability in null.
Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
The Initiative.
#157 - 2013-03-08 16:55:21 UTC
LHA Tarawa wrote:

You really do need to keep up. With the ai change, no one uses fighters for anoms any more... and it is the havens that crank out top ISK. The warp their carrier in at 100, drop a gazillian sentry drones, and blast away... or warp a couple BSes in at 50, launch sentries, warp in the t1 logi, and blast away.


ROFL and WTFmate.

This means you don't actually do any null sec PVE (or you do and like REALLY small wallet ticks), because that's just...I can't even call that what it is without getting banned and CCP sending someone to my house to leave a goats head on my pillow.

Dear God, does everyone in High Sec like to post about things they don't actually know anything at all about?

Also, I guess last night ratting in fountain with a Vindicator and assigned fighters making more per tick than any carrier in the game is capable of, I was doing it wrong? Shame on me.

You high sec people are amazing.
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#158 - 2013-03-08 17:26:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Vaerah Vahrokha
Dave Stark wrote:

with regards to boosts, that's a 14.5% difference in cycle time, however the difference between the large grav site, and scordite is 16%. even with superior boosts, high sec will still bag you more isk/hour if you're cherry picking scordite. not to mention, grav sites don't have 5% and 10% variants, high sec belts do. so, in reality the gap is even bigger.

as for the bigger asteroids, just pay attention in high sec and short cycle... just like you have to do in null sec. same effort, still more reward in high sec. on the other hand this is actually a legitimate benefit of null sec mining so i shouldn't be so flippant. however, that still isn't enough of an advantage for the myriad of other drawbacks facing the null sec miner.

what does hauling, reprocessing and building have to do with this?


I have done a lot of jobs in EvE including mining in hi, low and null sec, anomalies and missions included, and so I can tell you where you are wrong.

- Hi sec scordite is only available as "cherry pick" if you do it in missions. In regular hi sec belts the roids can't be cherry picked by a professional industrialist corp (the ones relevant to compare with the null sec corps). Sure if you fly a Venture you can do that, but an Orca boosted squad of Macks (I am note even talking about max MLUs Hulks) dries up a belt so fast that going after the individual roids is just a waste of time more than just grinding them all.

- The fact one "bags" more or less ISK by grinding something with an intrinsic zero value is entirely due to how much the market values such stuff.
The market *as is* is valuing high ends so low, because they are over produced in those supposedly so unsafe areas.

The market does not lie nor cares about "safety" or "sec status". Scordite is needed enough that it's valuable and the markets price it accordingly, that's all to it.
An industry null sec buff will make for a 300 isk pu Zydrin and a 1k pu Megacyte and deal with it like all the market players do.
I am all for industry buff for null sec but be ready to NOT whine when the inevitable consequences of that will come.

- The 5% and 10% variants are a nice mechanic to help newbies (who can cherry pick in their less advanced ships). They (rightly) don't help advanced players for real, as these variants are tiny, sometimes they last *1.5* laser cycles and all they are good for is to wear laser cystals quicker due to having to switch to the next tiny roid more often.
Edit: and no, I also mined in forgotten places like station-less Concord sov and yes, the roids are still tiny.

- As for the drawbacks for mining in null, I invite you to a low sec mining op. That's where the though sh!t is, because you have to permacamp all the gates and the WH entrances.
And what about WH mining? It's nice to have to work so hard to avoid incoming unknown hostiles right? The reward is right there! Oh wait.

What about NPC null sec mining? Yeah not even I would dare to do it, it's like low sec mining on steroids.

Sov mining? POS safe Rorqual? Check. Ability to do hidden belts? Check. *1* neut in local => warp to safe, possibly using 3rpd party illegal software? Check, that's all the "insane" required scouting and camping work.



Anyway don't take my word for this, open the market window and notice the markets being the harsh, fair, stern judge they have always been and price sov mining risk accordingly (spoiler: they price it for what it is).

EvE Online portal | EvE markets tutorials
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#159 - 2013-03-08 17:42:11 UTC
Vince Snetterton wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Quote:

I know what would happen. This thread would evaporate, and people would actually have to deal with some in-game reality, as opposed to campaigning to attack or defend high sec industry.


Isk income of ratters and refine rates dont have anything to do with the lack of industry slots in null.


Maybe not refine rates, but income ratting sure affects the usage of the slots.

You guys want 50 mfg slots at a Player owned station, just like an NPC station? No problem.
How about 100? How about 1000?

They will still go unused, because your players make far far more ISK per hour ratting, with a lot less clicking.
What you guys want is null sec industrialists to make as much per hour as some guy in a Vindi running forsaken hubs with fighter support from some Thannie parked at a POS.

And the only way that happens is you get a monopoly on T2 production, a brand new null sec game mechanic with 5-10 times the best high sec production rate, and brand new null sec only rocks with 10 times the yield of high sec rocks.

Station slots is not your problem. It never was. It all about the ISK/ hour.


5 minutes of "clicking" nets me 200 mil doing industry.

That means I have 23 hours and 30 minutes of time to go do other things like pvp or some pve to earn even more isk.

Tell more more about how industrialists who supply null sec empires wont take advantage of production in or 2 jumps from their market.
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#160 - 2013-03-08 17:51:10 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Tell more more about how industrialists who supply null sec empires wont take advantage of production in or 2 jumps from their market.


That would also help in an indirect way. A guy who today is faced with ferrying his stuff 10 jumps away will ask himself: "why don't I just JF all my stuff to Jita". If tomorrow he's just 2 jumps away he might think: "I may as well dump my stuff at VFK" and this would finally help create a more powerful null sec trade hub. As of now VFK is just Oursulaert sized, after a buff it could become a new Dodixie P

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