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CCP, how about some numbers

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Dave Stark
#101 - 2013-03-07 21:32:06 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
I'm glad you're on the same page with us here. This situation is what needs to be changed.

i'd quite like to be in null sec again. however, there's nothing to draw me there as a miner. i'm a miner in probably the purest sense of the phrase.
i log in, i shoot asteroids, i sell minerals, i log out.


I understand completely. The situation is unsatisfactory in the extreme, and it is precisely people like you - who'd prefer to be in 0.0, but find themselves too disadvantaged in their profesion to make the move viable - that I will devote my main energy to representing.

I'm utterly uninterested in "forcing" people who don't want to go into 0.0 (This is where I differ markedly from James315, for instance) I am passionate about enabling people who do want to go to get into 0.0




oh you silver tongued devil, you.
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#102 - 2013-03-07 21:34:01 UTC  |  Edited by: James Amril-Kesh
Kinis Deren wrote:
If you mean Empire NPC stations in the last sentence, there's also the fact you are competing for access to those slots against other players from different corps and alliances, whereas in sov null you are competing with members of your own alliance.

Also, access to the bonuses to Empire NPC require sufficient standings with that NPC. Correct me if I'm wrong, but for sov null outposts, the full benefit of any upgrades is automatically sanctioned by having access to said alliances outpost.

You seem to forget that with the current state of affairs YOU the empire dweller are competing with industrialists who need far more slots than you to fuel the nullsec war machine, since the vast majority of production for nullsec takes place in highsec stations.

If we nerfed highsec and buffed nullsec to make industry there viable, chances are YOU the empire dweller and small-time industrialist would see it as a buff because you wouldn't have to compete with them anymore for slots.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#103 - 2013-03-07 21:38:54 UTC
Kinis Deren wrote:
Takseen wrote:
Kinis Deren wrote:
I'm certainly no sov null industry expert, but comparing NPC station facilities doesn't seem to provide a true reflection of the manufacturing capacity of sov null, especially when there are these, these, these and these - none of which can be built in Empire.

Tbh, I'm looking for enlightenment as to why, given the opportunity to build the above, there is an apparent problem?


So there's an Amarr factory outpost with 20 slots that is limited to one per system, and an NPC station with 50 slots. Typically with multiple stations per system.


If you mean Empire NPC stations in the last sentence, there's also the fact you are competing for access to those slots against other players from different corps and alliances, whereas in sov null you are competing with members of your own alliance.

Also, access to the bonuses to Empire NPC require sufficient standings with that NPC. Correct me if I'm wrong, but for sov null outposts, the full benefit of any upgrades is automatically sanctioned by having access to said alliances outpost.


Whilst it's true that in empire you have a larger pool of people competing for slots, the fact that there are 2950% more slots to share between the competition does rather outweigh that problem.

Not to mention that, as mentioned above, if production in 0.0 became viable again, then competition for slots in hi-sec would fall significantly.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#104 - 2013-03-07 21:43:30 UTC
Dave Stark wrote:


if low ends were added to gneiss and spod then there would be an increase in supply for low ends, which would reduce their price and thus devaluing high sec mining whilst keeping null sec mining just as lucrative as it is now. this would draw more players to mine in null sec as it's then worth their time to do so as there's a wider gap between high sec, and non-high sec ores/minerals.

sure it's not the miracle solution but it's a very solid first step to fixing the issues surrounding null sec industry.


I am highly in favour of this change, as part of the overal changes that need to be made.

Contrary to what some would have us all believe, I am not in favour of any nerfs to hisec beyond what are needed to equalise the rewards of productive professions, and the nerfs should only be considered after all the buffs to 0.0 have been prototyped.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Karl Hobb
Imperial Margarine
#105 - 2013-03-07 21:50:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Karl Hobb
Kinis Deren wrote:
If you mean Empire NPC stations in the last sentence, there's also the fact you are competing for access to those slots against other players from different corps and alliances, whereas in sov null you are competing with members of your own alliance.

This is amusing because I think there was one time I had to wait like an hour, at most, for a manufacturing slot to open up. Saying that high-sec people "compete" for slots is only true if you live within five jumps of Jita. Or less, I don't know. But I do know that 11 jumps from Jita there are slots aplenty.

E: Quoted wrong statement

A professional astro-bastard was not available so they sent me.
Spetznak Sokarad
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#106 - 2013-03-07 21:52:34 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
Spetznak Sokarad wrote:
noob here ... so keep bashing to minimum.

been reading alot of these threads lately on null vs high industry stuff....

the more i read, the less interested i am becoming in continuing this game in its current state of affairs. im all for nerfing high sec (even though, thats where i spend most of my time, for now). i thought i was getting into a game that was supposed to be harsh and cruel, not some carebear land. isnt highsec supposed to be for "beginners" to get their feet under them? as far as im concerned, high sec should be where you stay if you are satisfied with making minimum wage. not somewhere you can flourish and get in game rich at pretty much NO risk.

anyways, why dont the nullsec alliances leaders just come to an agreement to boycott highsec? ......this would crush highsec economy, would it not?

highsec rely's on nullsec



Per the data provided by Tippia, nullsec is utterly incapable of producing the goods required to support itself. We can't "crush" hi-sec - we completely rely on it.

Incidentally, in my view the concept of hi-sec as just a "starter area" has been obsolete for a very long time. At least 6 or 7 years. Read this for more detail.

PS please don't quit. The situation will get better. CCP are aware of it. All that remains is to put a good enough case that resolving the crushing imbalance will make good business sense because it will revitalise 0.0


im not going to quit... i do love the depth and overall feel of this game.

but learning how out of whack the current risk vs reward in this game is, is certainly discomforting.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#107 - 2013-03-07 21:53:42 UTC
Karl Hobb wrote:
Kinis Deren wrote:
If you mean Empire NPC stations in the last sentence, there's also the fact you are competing for access to those slots against other players from different corps and alliances, whereas in sov null you are competing with members of your own alliance.

This is amusing because I think there was one time I had to wait like an hour, at most, for a manufacturing slot to open up. Saying that high-sec people "compete" for slots is only true if you live within five jumps of Jita. Or less, I don't know. But I do know that 11 jumps from Jita there are slots aplenty.

E: Quoted wrong statement


Even 5 jumps from jita there are so many free slots I never have to wait.
Kinis Deren
Mosquito Squadron
D0GS OF WAR
#108 - 2013-03-07 21:53:55 UTC
Malcanis wrote:

snip

Not to mention that, as mentioned above, if production in 0.0 became viable again, then competition for slots in hi-sec would fall significantly.


But would it? Isn't the sov null war machine such a hungry beast that any spare capacity in Empire, resulting from a sov null industry buff, would just be utilized as much by the same sov null players as now?
Karl Hobb
Imperial Margarine
#109 - 2013-03-07 21:55:44 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Even 5 jumps from jita there are so many free slots I never have to wait.

I suspected as much, Lol

A professional astro-bastard was not available so they sent me.
stoicfaux
#110 - 2013-03-07 21:55:59 UTC
Ok, I think we've established that industry slots are scarce in null and that outposts aren't the solution.

And it would appear that null has decent mining capacity given the population disparity between null and high:
Quote:

From May 10th of last year: https://twitter.com/CCP_Diagoras/status/200614260085243904
Average mined per day for the last 7 days: High (1.47bn m3), Low (13.8m m3), Null (796m m3), WH (112m m3). #tweetfleet


Quote:
the answer to the % of >5m SP chars in high sec is... 67%! https://twitter.com/CCP_Diagoras/status/159660258753658882/photo/1
67% in high-sec
21% in null-sec

So, yeah, it's looking like a boost in industry slots could make null-sec noticeably less dependent on high-sec without anykind of mass high-sec player migration to null?

Pon Farr Memorial: once every 7 years, all the carebears in high-sec must PvP or they will be temp-banned.
Karl Hobb
Imperial Margarine
#111 - 2013-03-07 21:58:53 UTC
Kinis Deren wrote:
But would it? Isn't the sov null war machine such a hungry beast that any spare capacity in Empire, resulting from a sov null industry buff, would just be utilized as much by the same sov null players as now?

Given the number of free slots in high-sec at any given moment, the answer to your question is a resounding "no".

A professional astro-bastard was not available so they sent me.
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#112 - 2013-03-07 22:04:34 UTC
stoicfaux wrote:
Ok, I think we've established that industry slots are scarce in null and that outposts aren't the solution.



Reduce the cost of outpost upgrades to 3-5 Billion ISK

Each manufacturing upgrade adds 30 slots.

Suddenly outposts are the solution again!

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Kinis Deren
Mosquito Squadron
D0GS OF WAR
#113 - 2013-03-07 22:05:20 UTC
Karl Hobb wrote:
Kinis Deren wrote:
But would it? Isn't the sov null war machine such a hungry beast that any spare capacity in Empire, resulting from a sov null industry buff, would just be utilized as much by the same sov null players as now?

Given the number of free slots in high-sec at any given moment, the answer to your question is a resounding "no".


Does that statement include ME, PE and Invention or just limited to production slots?

Again, I'm here for enlightenment, I'm not an industry character, so have no drum to beat either way.
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#114 - 2013-03-07 22:08:34 UTC
Kinis Deren wrote:
Malcanis wrote:

snip

Not to mention that, as mentioned above, if production in 0.0 became viable again, then competition for slots in hi-sec would fall significantly.


But would it? Isn't the sov null war machine such a hungry beast that any spare capacity in Empire, resulting from a sov null industry buff, would just be utilized as much by the same sov null players as now?


That depends on the nature of the solution. Honestly, that's an excellent question. I would guess that not all nullsec alts would be withdrawn - some alliances simply wouldn't be interested in industrial activities, others might not be able to defend them well enough to make them more profitable than building in hi-sec even if they are interested

My best guess is that there would be peaks and troughs. When 0.0 goes through one of its quiet phases, then hi-sec production would be abandoned by null seccers in favour of more efficient local production. When war rages, hi-sec will look more attractive again.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#115 - 2013-03-07 22:09:19 UTC
Kinis Deren wrote:
Karl Hobb wrote:
Kinis Deren wrote:
But would it? Isn't the sov null war machine such a hungry beast that any spare capacity in Empire, resulting from a sov null industry buff, would just be utilized as much by the same sov null players as now?

Given the number of free slots in high-sec at any given moment, the answer to your question is a resounding "no".


Does that statement include ME, PE and Invention or just limited to production slots?

Again, I'm here for enlightenment, I'm not an industry character, so have no drum to beat either way.


Download tippia's spreadshhet and play around with the figures a bit yourself.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
ISD Ezwal
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
ISD Alliance
#116 - 2013-03-07 22:10:42 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD Ezwal
I have cleaned the thread from rule breaking posts and let some edge cases stay.
Please people, for a healthy discussion, keep it on topic and above all civil and polite!

As per forum rules:

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Thread unlocked.

ISD Ezwal Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs)
Karl Hobb
Imperial Margarine
#117 - 2013-03-08 00:53:48 UTC
Kinis Deren wrote:
Does that statement include ME, PE and Invention or just limited to production slots?

Again, I'm here for enlightenment, I'm not an industry character, so have no drum to beat either way.

No, but, in my admittedly limited experience researching T1 ship BPOs alongside a guy doing T2 production, ME, PE, and invention research is best done at a POS because of the significant increase in time savings. High-sec research slots are almost all backed up for 2 months, from what I've seen.

A professional astro-bastard was not available so they sent me.
Setaceous
Nexus Prima
#118 - 2013-03-08 02:55:45 UTC
Karl Hobb wrote:
Kinis Deren wrote:
Does that statement include ME, PE and Invention or just limited to production slots?

Again, I'm here for enlightenment, I'm not an industry character, so have no drum to beat either way.

No, but, in my admittedly limited experience researching T1 ship BPOs alongside a guy doing T2 production, ME, PE, and invention research is best done at a POS because of the significant increase in time savings. High-sec research slots are almost all backed up for 2 months, from what I've seen.


From my limited playing around with industry in Lonetrek (no idea about the other Hi-Sec regions):

Production: always free slots within 1 or 2 jumps from every system.
Invention: always free slots within 1 or 2 jumps from most systems. Maximum 6 jumps if you're really unlucky.
PE: always free slots, though you may have to jump about a bit to find them. Generally within 2 jumps.
ME: none free. Available from 5 days to several months.
Copying: none free. Available from one to six months (best to have your own POS or rent a slot from another player).
Vince Snetterton
#119 - 2013-03-08 05:13:49 UTC
So CCP, are any of your devs willing to discuss why CCP has not released detailed economic data in many months.
I am talking about the kind of data that can be used to shape intelligent discussions.

In the absence of that data, we are seeing vast propaganda campaigns that are trying to portray conjecture as fact.

I ask again, why does CCP not release the data?
Jensaro Koraka
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#120 - 2013-03-08 05:20:25 UTC
Vince Snetterton wrote:
The "null sec poor, high sec rich, nerf high sec" forum wars are heating up again, and numerous CSM candidates are running on that platform.

What? When did that happen? This is the first time I've heard someone make that claim.

"Every normal man must be tempted, at times, to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats." -H.L. Mencken