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CCP, how about some numbers

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James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#41 - 2013-03-07 17:57:33 UTC
Yeah, you didn't address that cause and effect issue. Once again...

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#42 - 2013-03-07 17:59:04 UTC
Kane Alvo wrote:
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
What's the point, if the content we take is still inferior to what's spoon fed in highsec?
Seriously, all of an alliance's production slots are incapable of even making all of the ammo an alliance needs, much less the ships.


I'm not an expert on anything, and I don't claim to be. I'm sure there is some merit to the null sec complaints, and it's no secret that POS's need to be improved. But making null more like high sec or nerfing high sec isn't the answer. Again, I would argue that null is designed to be the final frontier and completely player-driven. It's the players who should address the problem, not demand more NPC interaction.

Actively absorb high sec indy corps if you need more slots in your alliance. Set up trade agreements, or even trade hubs.


We have tens of thousands of pilots out here and we dont even have the slots to make up for the ammo we burn through when DBRB goes structure shooting. There are systems 4 jumps outside of jita that have most of their manufacturing slots unused.
Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
The Initiative.
#43 - 2013-03-07 18:01:54 UTC
Kane Alvo wrote:

Are you being forced out, or did you make that decision on your own? I'm unaware of any game mechanic that actively ejects players from null sec because they aren't reaching a certain ISK/hr quota. If this is the type of gaming you seek, then by your own admission, you would be better served by moving back to high sec.


Why would i move to the place I'm already forced (by COMMON SENSE) to live.

It isn't about isk/hour, it's about being made a slave by circumstance and game mechanics to a part of space that i don't want to. We hear the cries every day from high sec of "YOU CAN'T FORCE ME TO PLAY YOUR WAY, yet the same people are fine with us being FORCED to rely on high sec for logistical and financial needs...needs they are more than happy to fill with their missioned up/incursioned up Loyalty points and isk and mined up minerals and INFINITE INDUSTRIAL MIGHT.

Some of you act as if "null sec player" should come kind of badge of honor and/or entitlement. [/quote]

Honor yes (there is a reason damn near EVERY ccp ad features NULL SEC play), Entitlement, now, you're thinking of high sec, where everything is handed to you.

Quote:

Null sec players (the ones who don't ***** every 5 minutes) are attracted to the self-sustaining lifestyle. High sec players are spoon fed by NPC content. Which one are you? Really?


I'm the one who'd rather have my alts building stuff in null than putzing around high sec. But it's futile as the game is now, so high sec it is.
Quote:

I really don't understand all the null bear whining. You live in null sec. If you want more, GO TAKE IT.


Im totally going to take those indy slots, FROM HIGH SEC.

Also, Malcanis for CSM!
LHA Tarawa
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#44 - 2013-03-07 18:02:03 UTC
baltec1 wrote:

We have tens of thousands of pilots out here and we dont even have the slots to make up for the ammo we burn through when DBRB goes structure shooting. There are systems 4 jumps outside of jita that have most of their manufacturing slots unused.


Sounds like you need to build more outposts.
Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
The Initiative.
#45 - 2013-03-07 18:03:27 UTC
Kane Alvo wrote:
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
What's the point, if the content we take is still inferior to what's spoon fed in highsec?
Seriously, all of an alliance's production slots are incapable of even making all of the ammo an alliance needs, much less the ships.


I'm not an expert on anything, and I don't claim to be. I'm sure there is some merit to the null sec complaints, and it's no secret that POS's need to be improved. But making null more like high sec or nerfing high sec isn't the answer. Again, I would argue that null is designed to be the final frontier and completely player-driven. It's the players who should address the problem, not demand more NPC interaction.

Actively absorb high sec indy corps if you need more slots in your alliance. Set up trade agreements, or even trade hubs.


translation: Stay stuck to high sec.

No.
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#46 - 2013-03-07 18:05:46 UTC
Beekeeper Bob wrote:
Tippia wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
Any chance you could add a "Region" column to that list? It would make it much more useful.
Ugh.
Yes. Soon™ P

Beekeeper Bob wrote:
Please explain why Null needs more industry? Most people won't build in null anyway due to logistical issues and a FOTM market. 80% of the items supplied in 0.0 are bought in highsec and transported.
You answered your own question. Null needs more industry because [random]% of the items are bought in high and transported rather than produced locally — that's not how it should be. Null-based industrialists are supposed to be able to work in null, supplying null locally, without it being a stupid thing to attempt.

Obviously, there is a market for stuff out there, or all that importing wouldn't happen. The problem is that the game mechanics are so imbalanced that you can't reasonably supply that market in what should be the most efficient manner: by gathering and building where you live. The game effectively prohibits you from building the empires the game is meant to let you build.




What dream world are you living in Tippia?

Very few people go to 0.0 to build, regardless of how easy it might be.


They might, if it were profitable enough to allow them to compete with the massive subsidies hi-sec building gets.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
stoicfaux
#47 - 2013-03-07 18:06:22 UTC
Beekeeper Bob wrote:

So, if you want to argue the point, please do. Please explain how you intend to solve all the other issues that go along with 0.0 industry...and incidentally persuade all the risk adverse, high industry guys that it's really worth it....If you are willing to invest the billions to get started....

What if null-sec industry was potentially lucrative enough that null-dwellers were willing to provide security or incentives for high-sec miners to mine in null?

People make the world go around, so should we really be looking for a people solution versus a "number of manufacturing slots" solution? Meaning, is it better to ask "what would it take to get high-sec miners to migrate to null ?"

Pon Farr Memorial: once every 7 years, all the carebears in high-sec must PvP or they will be temp-banned.
LHA Tarawa
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#48 - 2013-03-07 18:10:06 UTC
stoicfaux wrote:

Meaning, is it better to ask "what would it take to get high-sec miners to migrate to null ?"


The answer to that one is simple. Turn null into high sec.

But, I don't think anyone is calling for that.
Dave Stark
#49 - 2013-03-07 18:16:44 UTC
LHA Tarawa wrote:
stoicfaux wrote:

Meaning, is it better to ask "what would it take to get high-sec miners to migrate to null ?"


The answer to that one is simple. Turn null into high sec.

But, I don't think anyone is calling for that.



actually, simply making it worth their while will get miners in to null.

as it stands there's no reason to move to null and mine.
stoicfaux
#50 - 2013-03-07 18:16:58 UTC
LHA Tarawa wrote:
stoicfaux wrote:

Meaning, is it better to ask "what would it take to get high-sec miners to migrate to null ?"


The answer to that one is simple. Turn null into high sec.

But, I don't think anyone is calling for that.


Eve is a sandbox. Why can't a null alliance create a part of null-sec that has most of the benefits of high-sec?

Pon Farr Memorial: once every 7 years, all the carebears in high-sec must PvP or they will be temp-banned.
Dave Stark
#51 - 2013-03-07 18:20:09 UTC
stoicfaux wrote:
LHA Tarawa wrote:
stoicfaux wrote:

Meaning, is it better to ask "what would it take to get high-sec miners to migrate to null ?"


The answer to that one is simple. Turn null into high sec.

But, I don't think anyone is calling for that.


Eve is a sandbox. Why can't a null alliance create a part of null-sec that has most of the benefits of high-sec?



because you can't just move jita to the arse end of 0.0, likewise who really wants you in their space when you're contributing almost nothing?
Beekeeper Bob
Beekeepers Anonymous
#52 - 2013-03-07 18:22:41 UTC
stoicfaux wrote:
Beekeeper Bob wrote:

So, if you want to argue the point, please do. Please explain how you intend to solve all the other issues that go along with 0.0 industry...and incidentally persuade all the risk adverse, high industry guys that it's really worth it....If you are willing to invest the billions to get started....

What if null-sec industry was potentially lucrative enough that null-dwellers were willing to provide security or incentives for high-sec miners to mine in null?

People make the world go around, so should we really be looking for a people solution versus a "number of manufacturing slots" solution? Meaning, is it better to ask "what would it take to get high-sec miners to migrate to null ?"



Sorry, but your simply showing your lack of 0.0 experience. PvP'ers hate miners and industrialists. They complain about them endlessly.

Thinking you are going to get a bunch of pvp'ers to sit around for hours while miners make money is......Halarious..



Signature removed - CCP Eterne
LHA Tarawa
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#53 - 2013-03-07 18:23:18 UTC
So, what is it that null industrialists want? More slots in null outposts? Higher install and run costs in high sec stations? More, and larger veld rocks in null to end that as a choke point to null manufacturing? Rocks in null produce more minerals than high sec rocks? Make POS refining/reprocessing able to get 100%? Make high sec station refine impossible to get above, say, 75%? LP and faction standing for running anoms?

As a high sec carebear miner/industrialist, I'm 100% emphatically for all of those changes.
Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
The Initiative.
#54 - 2013-03-07 18:24:26 UTC
Beekeeper Bob wrote:
stoicfaux wrote:
Beekeeper Bob wrote:

So, if you want to argue the point, please do. Please explain how you intend to solve all the other issues that go along with 0.0 industry...and incidentally persuade all the risk adverse, high industry guys that it's really worth it....If you are willing to invest the billions to get started....

What if null-sec industry was potentially lucrative enough that null-dwellers were willing to provide security or incentives for high-sec miners to mine in null?

People make the world go around, so should we really be looking for a people solution versus a "number of manufacturing slots" solution? Meaning, is it better to ask "what would it take to get high-sec miners to migrate to null ?"



Sorry, but your simply showing your lack of 0.0 experience. PvP'ers hate miners and industrialists. They complain about them endlessly.

Thinking you are going to get a bunch of pvp'ers to sit around for hours while miners make money is......Halarious..





Ah, so we're all just imaging those corp mining ops people keep calling us to in null sec.

This is how we know you are trolling, because of you aren't then you know nothing of the current state of null.
EI Digin
irc.zulusquad.org
#55 - 2013-03-07 18:27:28 UTC
0.0 players don't hate industrialists. They are just completely worthless in nullsec so they don't get recruited or defended or cared about.

Perhaps if nullsec industry wasn't so horrible save for a few edge cases, they would be more well liked and defended.
Vince Snetterton
#56 - 2013-03-07 18:29:14 UTC
EI Digin wrote:
0.0 players don't hate industrialists. They are just completely worthless in nullsec so they don't get recruited or defended or cared about.

Perhaps if nullsec industry wasn't so horrible save for a few edge cases, they would be more well liked and defended.


Gee, wouldn't it be nice to have some hard economic data to bolster people's arguments one way or the other?
LHA Tarawa
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#57 - 2013-03-07 18:30:19 UTC
stoicfaux wrote:
LHA Tarawa wrote:
stoicfaux wrote:

Meaning, is it better to ask "what would it take to get high-sec miners to migrate to null ?"


The answer to that one is simple. Turn null into high sec.

But, I don't think anyone is calling for that.


Eve is a sandbox. Why can't a null alliance create a part of null-sec that has most of the benefits of high-sec?



Because:
1) they are in null because they want to shoot stuff, not make a trade hub.
2) Even if they wanted to make a trade hub, others would just show up to kill everyone else coming there to trade.

James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#58 - 2013-03-07 18:30:29 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
Ah, so we're all just imaging those corp mining ops people keep calling us to in null sec.

This is how we know you are trolling, because of you aren't then you know nothing of the current state of null.

My corp actually had a semi-regular mining thing going, but it hasn't happened recently because real life kind of happened to the guy who was running it. Either that or lack of interest.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
Beekeeper Bob
Beekeepers Anonymous
#59 - 2013-03-07 18:45:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Beekeeper Bob
Jenn aSide wrote:
Beekeeper Bob wrote:
stoicfaux wrote:
Beekeeper Bob wrote:

So, if you want to argue the point, please do. Please explain how you intend to solve all the other issues that go along with 0.0 industry...and incidentally persuade all the risk adverse, high industry guys that it's really worth it....If you are willing to invest the billions to get started....

What if null-sec industry was potentially lucrative enough that null-dwellers were willing to provide security or incentives for high-sec miners to mine in null?

People make the world go around, so should we really be looking for a people solution versus a "number of manufacturing slots" solution? Meaning, is it better to ask "what would it take to get high-sec miners to migrate to null ?"



Sorry, but your simply showing your lack of 0.0 experience. PvP'ers hate miners and industrialists. They complain about them endlessly.

Thinking you are going to get a bunch of pvp'ers to sit around for hours while miners make money is......Halarious..





Ah, so we're all just imaging those corp mining ops people keep calling us to in null sec.

This is how we know you are trolling, because of you aren't then you know nothing of the current state of null.



So it has become a happy care-bear heaven, where Pvper's and industrialists work in harmony?

Your right, I don't know 0.0 anymore, and if that's the state it's in....I wouldn't want too...Big smile


Oh, and you realize that "Corp mining ops" go to the corp, and rarely are redistributed to the average industry guy right?

Signature removed - CCP Eterne
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#60 - 2013-03-07 18:48:54 UTC
Actually they sold the ore in our home system where alliance industrialists (probably people who build supers) buy them.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)