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AFK Cloaky Cyno Camping High Rewards, Zero Risk and Effort

First post
Author
Onomerous
Caldari Black Hand
Caldari Tactical Operations Command
#61 - 2013-03-11 12:43:06 UTC
Nariya Kentaya wrote:
The issue OP seems to be having problems with from skimming the proposal isnt about local or cloaking.

its about cynos.

thats a FORCE PROJECTION issue, something thats a universal issue with null allowing large alliances to claim vast swathes of unused space with no reason to ignore smaller entities moving in withot crushing them, since they can have their entire capital armada there and back in 2 hours maximum (counting the POS bash itself into the time if they bring enough dreads).



as far as cloaking goes, outside of a cyno possibility, they pose no threat, as any cloaked ship is inherently gimping their fit.


BOOM... I say BOOM!!! There is the issue. You don't see people actually say it but a cyno is the real problem. If you try to argue about WH not having local, the NS players will usually mention cyno drops.
Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#62 - 2013-03-11 13:20:42 UTC
Onomerous wrote:
BOOM... I say BOOM!!! There is the issue. You don't see people actually say it but a cyno is the real problem. If you try to argue about WH not having local, the NS players will usually mention cyno drops.

Yes, but cynos also track back to local, when used in this manner.

I shall try to explain a few details that are usually glossed over crudely, but hold the truth.

AFK Cloaking: This is done in response to Local Chat flawlessly reporting pilot presence. It dumbs down the interaction between pilots by outright telling all parties who is present. Without this crutch, use of sensors, strategy, and cooperation would be needed to fill the void.
What does it achieve?
It creates a flaw in the usual flow of cause and effect for life in many systems. Often, a neutral or hostile pilot is seen entering, and activity is suspended until they leave. There is trivial risk, as standard procedure often involves being ready to get safe in the time frame provided by this instant alarm. Hostile pilots who refuse to leave are subsequently hunted down.
When the "AFK Cloaking" pilot enters, he disrupts this process, by not leaving. Further, since this intel tool persistently shows him present, the default response of suspending activity is perpetually pushed as chosen reaction.
This devalues the intel tool, as it is now being used against the native PvE pilots instead of helping them.
If local were removed, sensors strategy and cooperation would be placed as valuable means of protecting PvE income assets.
It would also be pointless to AFK cloak, as noone would be aware of your presence while you were passive.
It is widely anticipated that any change to local which stopped free cloaking awareness would also include a means to hunt cloaked ships.

Summary: That free intel tool favored by so many can be used by the hunters too.

Hot Dropping: Bridging is intended to bypass reinforced blockades and travel time. Here, it has been fine tuned to avoid advertising the presence of a fleet to the free intel tool as well by delaying the easily recognizable population spike till the last possible moment. The intention is to deny the warning local provides, although it still reports the presence of the cyno boat enough to be associated with AFK Cloaking instead.
Quite simply, while PvE pilots would never resume regular activities with a hostile fleet present, they are sometimes willing to gamble over whether a cloaked vessel represents that level of threat at a given time.

Sorry about the length, but the mindless repetition of "AFK Cloaking is bad mmkay" sounds foolish.
Azrael Dinn
Imperial Mechanics
#63 - 2013-03-11 13:46:26 UTC
Remove local and add probes to find all cloaked vessels.

Or just add probes that can find cloaked vessel.

I'm fine with either one. Thank you.

After centuries of debating and justifying... Break Cloaks tm

Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#64 - 2013-03-11 13:59:47 UTC
Azrael Dinn wrote:
Remove local and add probes to find all cloaked vessels.

Or just add probes that can find cloaked vessel.

I'm fine with either one. Thank you.

Adding probes by itself is not an ideal balance, but it can be part of the solution.

I suggest this, which duplicates the efforts and hardware needed for cloaking in order to counter it and hunt it.
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2668453#post2668453
DataRunner Attor
Doomheim
#65 - 2013-03-11 14:07:58 UTC
Currently this is how you counter Cloak's, and lets put +1 point for everything they can do. Lets put a -1 for everything that can counter them.

Almost all ships can kill off a cloak ship sort of the cloak's ships target. So a stealth bomber targets LARGE ships, battlecruisers(Kinda iffy, you will sweat bullets if it catches you.) battleships and so on, and even so they must work in groups. Anything smaller can catch a stealth bomber and quickly kill it as stealth ships have crappy tank. 0

A stealth ship isn't truely stealth, local still gives everyone the idea that someone is still there. -1

covert ops ships can gather intel without getting caught +1

Blackops ships are mainly used as an expensive force projection ship for only cloaked vessels -1

blockade runners before they got their unscannable cargo bonus was never used, and even now they an't used for low sec/null sec transportation cause Jump freighters are simple safer. Which originally they were made to run gate camps! -1

I can keep going but I'm sure you all get the jest of it.

“Point out to me a person who has been harmed by an AFK cloaker and I will point out a person who has no business playing this game.”

Capqu
Half Empty
xqtywiznalamywmodxfhhopawzpqyjdwrpeptuaenabjawdzku
#66 - 2013-03-11 14:41:53 UTC
op: g-guys this thread isn't about local its about afk cloaking disrupting my system!
upstanding catholic: how do you know there is an afk cloaker in your system without local?

checkmate athiests
Freckles Noban
Doomheim
#67 - 2013-03-11 14:59:16 UTC
Another one of these threads... sigh.

Sending my alt over to 3-QYVE soon just to annoy them.

Someone pointed the answer out before, WH's are ------> Way
Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#68 - 2013-03-11 15:07:48 UTC
Freckles Noban wrote:
Another one of these threads... sigh.

Sending my alt over to 3-QYVE soon just to annoy them.

Someone pointed the answer out before, WH's are ------> Way

If the differences were THAT simple between WH space and null, the serious players would have migrated there in far greater numbers.

Since you seem unaware of differences beyond local:
How else is Null different from a WH:

Live and stable gate connections to other sections of space, and between internal systems.
Outposts, NPC and player built both. This includes the sub category of med clones and jump clones as an additional difference.
The Market. Present in all it's glory, even if only stocked by player activity and some minor NPC items.
Cyno capability, both covert and regular.
Freckles Noban
Doomheim
#69 - 2013-03-11 15:23:05 UTC
Nikk Narrel wrote:
the serious players would have migrated there in far greater numbers.


That's the problem too many serious noobs occupy Null sec, they should Man-Up and go to WH's.

Enough of these whining threads go to WH's now.
Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#70 - 2013-03-11 15:34:21 UTC
Freckles Noban wrote:
Nikk Narrel wrote:
the serious players would have migrated there in far greater numbers.


That's the problem too many serious noobs occupy Null sec, they should Man-Up and go to WH's.

Enough of these whining threads go to WH's now.

I would be happy to do so.

I will require the following changes first:
Live and stable gate connections to other sections of space, and between internal systems.
Outposts, NPC and player built both. This includes the sub category of med clones and jump clones as an additional difference.
The Market. Present in all it's glory, even if only stocked by player activity and some minor NPC items.
Cyno capability, both covert and regular.
Seranova Farreach
Biomass Negative
#71 - 2013-03-11 15:53:06 UTC
no minigames for keeping cloak ON, cloaking is for when you need to go to the toilet or grab a BACON sammich.

[u]___________________ http://i.imgur.com/d9Ee2ik.jpg[/u]

TheGunslinger42
All Web Investigations
#72 - 2013-03-11 15:53:48 UTC
The problem these days is the greedy risk averse carebears that have now filtered into null. Null is supposed to be dangerous. That means the neutral floating around in your system might be a threat, you have to accept that. If you don't, go back to highsec. Don't **** and moan that you don't have perfect safety in null because a single neutral is roaming around and you can't quickly and easily find & kill him and go back to your crappy PVE
Mag's
Azn Empire
#73 - 2013-03-11 15:56:11 UTC
TheGunslinger42 wrote:
The problem these days is the greedy risk averse carebears that have now filtered into null. Null is supposed to be dangerous. That means the neutral floating around in your system might be a threat, you have to accept that. If you don't, go back to highsec. Don't **** and moan that you don't have perfect safety in null because a single neutral is roaming around and you can't quickly and easily find & kill him and go back to your crappy PVE
Sums it up tbh. Cool

Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.

Onomerous
Caldari Black Hand
Caldari Tactical Operations Command
#74 - 2013-03-11 16:05:30 UTC
TheGunslinger42 wrote:
The problem these days is the greedy risk averse carebears that have now filtered into null. Null is supposed to be dangerous. That means the neutral floating around in your system might be a threat, you have to accept that. If you don't, go back to highsec. Don't **** and moan that you don't have perfect safety in null because a single neutral is roaming around and you can't quickly and easily find & kill him and go back to your crappy PVE


What about all the peeps who think NS should be the end game for ALL players? Players should be eventually FORCED to NS? Surely they anticipated putting HS players into NS wouldn't be smooth... :)
Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#75 - 2013-03-11 16:17:38 UTC
Onomerous wrote:
TheGunslinger42 wrote:
The problem these days is the greedy risk averse carebears that have now filtered into null. Null is supposed to be dangerous. That means the neutral floating around in your system might be a threat, you have to accept that. If you don't, go back to highsec. Don't **** and moan that you don't have perfect safety in null because a single neutral is roaming around and you can't quickly and easily find & kill him and go back to your crappy PVE


What about all the peeps who think NS should be the end game for ALL players? Players should be eventually FORCED to NS? Surely they anticipated putting HS players into NS wouldn't be smooth... :)

The idea that all players should end up in null is laughable.

For that to happen, null would need to embrace the risk averse play style that supposedly is intended for high sec. This simply destroys any reality where we have different areas of the game for different play styles.

And yet you do have a point, we have some confused people thinking null is the must go section for all pilots, despite this.
Sura Sadiva
Entropic Tactical Crew
#76 - 2013-03-11 16:25:55 UTC
Onomerous wrote:
What about all the peeps who think NS should be the end game for ALL players? Players should be eventually FORCED to NS? Surely they anticipated putting HS players into NS wouldn't be smooth... :)


EVE is a sandbox. EVE is non-linear gameplay. So: EVE do not have an end-game, not in the traditional sense.

We have a new generation of player shaped in WOW-like theme park games. Their mindset is used to expect a linear progtression per trought the theme park zones: starting area, lev 20-39 regions, lev 40-59 regions and so on. And they try to find/apply the same to New Eden.

This is where the idea NS = EvE end game come from. NS is currently the closest thing to HS we have, for safety as well as for players type and mentality.

They are ignorant about EVE as well as arrogant: many of them simply bought an highly skilled char just to access to what they think is the "end game".

And then you meet them, you engage in 1 vs 1 and their ship vaporize almost not hitting you.

EVE is not structured so, do not have a linear gameplay, is up to each one to decide what his game and endgame is.

Onomerous
Caldari Black Hand
Caldari Tactical Operations Command
#77 - 2013-03-11 18:26:09 UTC
I agree 100% about the sandbox and player choice. Unfortunately, too many null sex (and low sex) players believe people should eventually move to their area (or be forced).

The entire cloaky QQ, especially since it is mostly NS players, is really entertaining. Make NS safer? Really?
Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#78 - 2013-03-11 18:33:08 UTC
Onomerous wrote:
I agree 100% about the sandbox and player choice. Unfortunately, too many null sex (and low sex) players believe people should eventually move to their area (or be forced).

The entire cloaky QQ, especially since it is mostly NS players, is really entertaining. Make NS safer? Really?

Null in name only.

You already have the rewards at levels where some players threaten to leave and do L4s in high sec rather than PvE if the difficulty increases. For these areas in space to be comparable like this, it is telling everyone the risks are comparable as well.
Noone denies that the reward is supposedly tied to the level of risk.

Next I suppose they will want some form of Concord or an equivalent, so they can have NPC support too.

..because staying in high sec sounds bad or something, I guess...
Tweaks Huren
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#79 - 2013-03-11 18:42:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Tweaks Huren
Forgive a new player for his ignorance if it's the case, but why not simply make Cloaking Devices use more capacitor energy to run? It could even be on first activation (big cap usage on activation) and then lower cap drain per cycle just to maintain the cloak active... Could also be a certain percentage of the ship's capacitor that way you can't simply counter it with cap mods.

What this would do:

1. If balanced properly, prevent someone from staying cloaked indefinitely (as long as they disable cap boosters while cloaking device is active)
2. Prevent someone from immediately warping away when decloaked (not enough cap remaining to warp)
3. Limit the fitting possibilities of cloak-able ships so that T1 frigates may not be able to use them forever (thus fix your low risk high reward complaint)
4. Force cloak equipped players to decloak once in a while to recharge cap.

Would this work or would it just make more people cry?
Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#80 - 2013-03-11 18:48:47 UTC
Tweaks Huren wrote:
Forgive a new player for his ignorance if it's the case, but why not simply make Cloaking Devices use more capacitor energy to run? It could even be on first activation (big cap usage on activation) and then lower cap drain per cycle just to maintain the cloak active... Could also be a certain percentage of the ship's capacitor that way you can't simply counter it with cap mods.

What this would do:

1. If balanced properly, prevent someone from staying cloaked indefinitely (as long as they disable cap boosters while cloaking device is active)
2. Prevent someone from immediately warping away when decloaked (not enough cap remaining to warp)
3. Limit the fitting possibilities of cloak-able ships so that T1 frigates may not be able to use them forever (thus fix your low risk high reward complaint)
4. Force cloak equipped players to decloak once in a while to recharge cap.

Would this work or would it just make more people cry?

It would not stop people crying at all.

The OP and many players with similar interests are considered risk averse.

Since cloaking itself is already balanced, the need for change exists only in their minds. As they continually rage on regarding it, others simply pointed out how it was balanced, and what it would take to change and remain balanced.

At no point can cloaking be changed without affecting local, without severely unbalancing the game. They are intertwined as far as balance goes, currently.