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Margin Trading Scam...

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Ishtanchuk Fazmarai
#161 - 2013-07-23 19:43:15 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Looser Eto wrote:
Great point, thanks.
No, it really isn't. Categorising playing a game in accordance with its rules as “not sane” or “antisocial” is the last bastion of having no reasonable point at all.


I have some fresh news for you... feelings are the same playing as in RL. That's the whole point in playing, btw; as playing allows us to experience real feelings in a controlled, non-real environment.

And as the feelings are the same, when you scam in game, your feelings are the same as if you were scamming in RL. You just bet that the consequences would be what the game allow (none), and not what would be those in RL.

But also the victim's negative feelings are the same. And there the line becomes blurrier.

The "joy of misbehave" is hard to carry into RL, but the "pain of victim" is way easier to carry along. People continuously makes RL decissions (like unsubbing) over their feelings about ingame events.

Roses are red / Violets are blue / I am an Alpha / And so it's you
SmokinDank
Horizon Research Group
#162 - 2013-07-23 19:45:17 UTC
Ishtanchuk Fazmarai wrote:
Tippia wrote:
Looser Eto wrote:
Great point, thanks.
No, it really isn't. Categorising playing a game in accordance with its rules as “not sane” or “antisocial” is the last bastion of having no reasonable point at all.


I have some fresh news for you... feelings are the same playing as in RL. That's the whole point in playing, btw; as playing allows us to experience real feelings in a controlled, non-real environment.

And as the feelings are the same, when you scam in game, your feelings are the same as if you were scamming in RL. You just bet that the consequences would be what the game allow (none), and not what would be those in RL.

But also the victim's negative feelings are the same. And there the line becomes blurrier.

The "joy of misbehave" is hard to carry into RL, but the "pain of victim" is way easier to carry along. People continuously makes RL decissions (like unsubbing) over their feelings about ingame events.


You need to stop playing video games if you take them THAT seriously. I'm not trying to joke I'm serious.

...
Ishtanchuk Fazmarai
#163 - 2013-07-23 20:12:13 UTC
SmokinDank wrote:
Ishtanchuk Fazmarai wrote:
Tippia wrote:
Looser Eto wrote:
Great point, thanks.
No, it really isn't. Categorising playing a game in accordance with its rules as “not sane” or “antisocial” is the last bastion of having no reasonable point at all.


I have some fresh news for you... feelings are the same playing as in RL. That's the whole point in playing, btw; as playing allows us to experience real feelings in a controlled, non-real environment.

And as the feelings are the same, when you scam in game, your feelings are the same as if you were scamming in RL. You just bet that the consequences would be what the game allow (none), and not what would be those in RL.

But also the victim's negative feelings are the same. And there the line becomes blurrier.

The "joy of misbehave" is hard to carry into RL, but the "pain of victim" is way easier to carry along. People continuously makes RL decissions (like unsubbing) over their feelings about ingame events.


You need to stop playing video games if you take them THAT seriously. I'm not trying to joke I'm serious.


Heh, why do you think that you enjoy fiction? Because you light up a special set of "fiction feelings" or because it triggers real feelings on you?

It works the same for pleasure as for pain. You enjoy EVE because of the real feelings it allows you to experience, but it also will hurt you with real feelings.

And in that case, EVE does not provide any escape mechanism, which is not a sensible thing to do.

Roses are red / Violets are blue / I am an Alpha / And so it's you
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#164 - 2013-07-23 20:16:30 UTC
Quote:
Heh, why do you think that you enjoy fiction? Because you light up a special set of "fiction feelings" or because it triggers real feelings on you?

It works the same for pleasure as for pain. You enjoy EVE because of the real feelings it allows you to experience, but it also will hurt you with real feelings.

And in that case, EVE does not provide any escape mechanism, which is not a sensible thing to do.


Seconded. I for one wish I could pull out this plug drilled into the back of my head when the game frustrates me, and just turn it off and watch netflix or something.

Why, CCP? Why have you trapped me in this web of yours!?

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Ban Bindy
Bindy Brothers Pottery Association
True Reign
#165 - 2013-07-23 20:43:58 UTC
CCP Falcon wrote:
Jonathon Oday wrote:
Then, through my own naivety and greed, I fall for the Margin Trading Scam...


You just openly admitted that you tried to get greedy and exploit someone for fast easy profit and it didn't pay off.

Instead, it backfired on you and put you out of pocket. These things happen, you dust yourself off and keep moving.

Sometimes you win, sometimes you lose. You just have to remember that somewhere out there in New Eden, there's always someone smarter, more persuasive, more manipulative, or sometimes just more outright lucky than you.

Roll the dice, don't think twice. This is the way of things.

Welcome to EVE.


This is why, despite the fact that I play this game, I will be totally delighted to watch the whole company go up in flames.
Winter Archipelago
Autumn Industrial Enterprises
#166 - 2013-07-23 21:15:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Winter Archipelago
Ban Bindy wrote:
This is why, despite the fact that I play this game, I will be totally delighted to watch the whole company go up in flames.


"Hey! Look! That group did something I disagree with! I want to see them burn, and put hundreds of people out of a job, even though it's their game, and their rules, and I agree to them every time I pay [or PLEX, same deal], but I still disagree with them, but I'm still going to enjoy their product, but I still want to company to fail, because HODOR."

Go back to WoW, and I'm sure the GM's there will be happy to hold your hand when things get disagreeable.

For the Newbies: The 8 Golden Rules - The Magic 14 Skills - Finding the Right Corp - EVE University Wiki
Domanique Altares
Rifterlings
#167 - 2013-07-23 21:51:24 UTC
ITT: A skill book becomes whipping boy for the sins of the stupid.
Vladimir Norkoff
Income Redistribution Service
#168 - 2013-07-23 21:57:39 UTC
Eh... I think the biggest problem people have with the Margin Trade scam is that there is no risk or adverse effect for the scammer. You just train a skill, set your obscure buy/sell orders, and then the trick itself is hidden within mechanics of the game. So it's not recognizable unless you are familiar with the scam. Frankly I don't see how the mechanic adds anything beneficial to the game as a whole. All I see it doing is screwing over new players and making them ragequit. Cuz let's face it, they are the only ones who are gonna fall for it. And that seems a bit counter-productive.
Vaju Enki
Secular Wisdom
#169 - 2013-07-23 21:59:13 UTC
Ban Bindy wrote:
CCP Falcon wrote:
Jonathon Oday wrote:
Then, through my own naivety and greed, I fall for the Margin Trading Scam...


You just openly admitted that you tried to get greedy and exploit someone for fast easy profit and it didn't pay off.

Instead, it backfired on you and put you out of pocket. These things happen, you dust yourself off and keep moving.

Sometimes you win, sometimes you lose. You just have to remember that somewhere out there in New Eden, there's always someone smarter, more persuasive, more manipulative, or sometimes just more outright lucky than you.

Roll the dice, don't think twice. This is the way of things.

Welcome to EVE.


This is why, despite the fact that I play this game, I will be totally delighted to watch the whole company go up in flames.


U MAD?

The Tears Must Flow
Rhivre
TarNec
Invisible Exchequer
#170 - 2013-07-23 22:05:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Rhivre
Looser Eto wrote:


On topic, my objection and reference to double standards is because CCP tends to downplay all scams (margin trading, isk doubling etc.) for the expense of the victim and never for the scammer.

You raised a crucial point with regards to whining: Scammers don't whine because (a) they know they are abusing the game mechanics in the first place, and (b) they can easily biomass their pilots and start a fresh, zero history trader/isk doubler.



Scammers, whether of the contract, or margin version are not "abusing game mechanics"

With ISK doubling.....really? If someone came up to you and said "Hi, I can double your money, just give it to me and I will give you back twice as much" would you hand over your cash?
If not, what makes you think it is any more legitimate in a game?

CCP have actually made it a lot harder to fall for contract scams.

There is now big text saying "YOU WILL PAY" and "YOU WILL GET", and the actual item name is now clearly marked. The isk price is also written in words, as well as numbers.

Despite all this, people STILL fall for contract scams. This is usually because they are in such a rush to snag a special deal.


As I mentioned before, regarding margin scams, no actual margin trading skill is required to pull off the same thing, you are just required to be at your keyboard when someone buys your sell order or contract, and then cancel your buy order. Although, some people would say we should make it impossible to cancel or modify orders.

Bottom line is.....instead of going "OMG free isk" when people see "special deals", they should perhaps apply the same skepticism as they do in RL "If it looks too good to be true, it probably is"

If you arent sure, check in any number of the channels in game, starting with corp chat.

Fluffy Bunny Pic!

Domanique Altares
Rifterlings
#171 - 2013-07-23 22:18:59 UTC
Vladimir Norkoff wrote:
Frankly I don't see how the mechanic adds anything beneficial to the game as a whole.


You don't see how the mechanic of letting you set up a buy order without having to place 100% of the isk in escrow helps the game as a whole?

You must never buy anything from the market. Ever.

(Also, a failed buy order doesn't harm the seller, either. They paid nothing for it to fail, and still have their item(s). What they chose to pay for the item(s) is irrelevant to the margin trading skill mechanic. If they lost money, they lost it at time of purchase, not when the buy order failed.)
Destination SkillQueue
Doomheim
#172 - 2013-07-23 22:25:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Destination SkillQueue
Vladimir Norkoff wrote:
Eh... I think the biggest problem people have with the Margin Trade scam is that there is no risk or adverse effect for the scammer. You just train a skill, set your obscure buy/sell orders, and then the trick itself is hidden within mechanics of the game. So it's not recognizable unless you are familiar with the scam. Frankly I don't see how the mechanic adds anything beneficial to the game as a whole. All I see it doing is screwing over new players and making them ragequit. Cuz let's face it, they are the only ones who are gonna fall for it. And that seems a bit counter-productive.

You've not said anything, that doesn't apply to many other scams. There isn't any less risk or adverse affects then there are for most other scams. The scam is only hidden in the sense, that you won't notice the bait for what it is, if you don't know the market value of the item you're trading in and you don't look at the details of the order. The people falling for scams in general are the stupid, greedy and the ones who don't understand game mechanics, so mostly impulsive stupid people and new players. Actually it's probably mostly just stupid people, since a true new player wouldn't have the money to buy the sell order and even a new trader would spot the abnormal market orders a mile away.

Margin trading itself is a must have skill for a trader and increases the number of orders there would otherwise be on the market, so it's very beneficial to the game. On the other hand the scam using it is harmless to the overall health of the game and the market, so there is little reason to try to change the skill because of it. Therefore the overall good it produced shouldn't be gimped in favor of people who where too lazy or greedy to even find out the value of the item they started trading in, and it's trading they're intending to do, since they only bought the overpriced crap to immediately resell it for a quick profit. Whether such people are new players or not shouldn't make any difference.
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#173 - 2013-07-23 22:30:20 UTC  |  Edited by: RubyPorto
Ishtanchuk Fazmarai wrote:
I have some fresh news for you... feelings are the same playing as in RL. That's the whole point in playing, btw; as playing allows us to experience real feelings in a controlled, non-real environment.


Yep

Quote:
And as the feelings are the same, when you scam in game, your feelings are the same as if you were scamming in RL. You just bet that the consequences would be what the game allow (none), and not what would be those in RL.


Sure. But the consequences are the important thing, because feelings are entirely subjective and the feelings elicited by an action cannot be predicted by other parties.

Quote:
But also the victim's negative feelings are the same. And there the line becomes blurrier.

The "joy of misbehave" is hard to carry into RL, but the "pain of victim" is way easier to carry along. People continuously makes RL decissions (like unsubbing) over their feelings about ingame events.


Here's the difference. They signed up for the game. This is an opt in game where scamming is legal gameplay. You are solely responsible for handling the feelings you experience when you sit down to play any game or feelings-eliciting form of entertainment.
Quitting playing a game because you do not enjoy its gameplay is not a bad thing.

If someone quits playing chess because you take their queen (an element of legal gameplay), do you blame the person who took the queen, the game of chess itself, or do you conclude that the person who quit massively overreacted to a normal part of the game they chose to play.

To put it another way, If I go to see SAW 21, am I in the right when I complain to the management that I was horrified and disgusted by what I saw on the screen?

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
Domanique Altares
Rifterlings
#174 - 2013-07-23 22:42:41 UTC
RubyPorto wrote:


If someone quits playing chess because you take their queen (an element of legal gameplay), do you blame the person who took the queen, the game of chess itself, or do you conclude that the person who quit massively overreacted to a normal part of the game they chose to play.


Yeah, but you shouldn't be able to take my queen in chess. It's a bullshit mechanic.

I only moved my queen over there because I was going to use it to check your king. I didn't notice that your bishop was over there waiting.

Taking the queen serves no purpose to the overall game of chess.
Tenris Anis
Schattenengel Clan
#175 - 2013-07-23 22:49:37 UTC
Tippia wrote:

Oh, and what does sociopathy have to do with anything? Don't tell me you're one of those mentally unstable people who can't separate fantasy from reality…?


I think I have ask you this question once already. What is difference from playing a sociopath to actually being a sociopath from an outside perspective?
Most people will never meet the person behind Tippia, all that maters for them is the in-game personally that you have chosen to play. Not everyone likes to play a sociopath, even when this would be a very beneficial strategy for the game.

Lucky for me, I have no such moral struggles, so eve is perfect for me ;-)

Remove insurance.
Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
#176 - 2013-07-23 23:00:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Jonah Gravenstein
Vladimir Norkoff wrote:
All I see it doing is screwing over new players and making them ragequit. Cuz let's face it, they are the only ones who are gonna fall for it.

Newbies don't have the kind of ISK involved in a margin trading scam, unless they've plexed their wallets in which case they're fair game, so they rarely, if ever, get caught by it. It's the people with ISK that see an opportunity for a nice pay-day and grab it, without thinking, with both hands that get caught.

I've done it, I'm the proud owner of some random piece of worthless crap that cost me 500 million, it lives in a container named "you fool" or slightly, actually a lot, cruder words to that effect.

In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.

New Player FAQ

Feyd's Survival Pack
Johan Toralen
IIIJIIIITIIII
#177 - 2013-07-23 23:05:28 UTC
Vladimir Norkoff wrote:
Eh... I think the biggest problem people have with the Margin Trade scam is that there is no risk or adverse effect for the scammer.


It's not without risk. You can mess up when you set it up. You can mess up your wallets. Someone can fill your buy orders with stock from somewhere else, it will fail obviously but you lose your taxes and fees (which add up when you run a multi billion scam).

The whole thing can get ignored or a bunch of new stock pop up from other traders. Then you sit on expensive stock that possibly you self paid way too much for just to get the scam running. And last but not least as Erotica pointed out earlier in the thread you can get scammed yourself when other guys troll you with overpriced stock that you must buy just so the scam stays intact. (i used that trick myself as nice source of extra income when i was trading in Jita)

Quote:
Frankly I don't see how the mechanic adds anything beneficial to the game as a whole.


Margin Trading itself is an extremely important skill for legit trading as it allows traders to stay liquid.
Vladimir Norkoff
Income Redistribution Service
#178 - 2013-07-24 04:03:35 UTC
Johan Toralen wrote:
It's not without risk. You can mess up when you set it up. You can mess up your wallets. Someone can fill your buy orders with stock from somewhere else, it will fail obviously but you lose your taxes and fees (which add up when you run a multi billion scam).
You have to admit, that's not much of a risk and the repercussions are minimal on the very rare chance it fails.

Quote:
Margin Trading itself is an extremely important skill for legit trading as it allows traders to stay liquid.
Poorly stated on my part, and eagerly taken out of context by you lot. P I meant the scam doesn't add anything beneficial to the game. Yeah Margin Trading is fantastic when used for trading. But the scam is kinda broken and has no warning. It just pisses off new players who have the silly idea that they can trust the market interface.

The scam is rather similar to the old Lofty trick, it uses hidden game mechanics in order to be implemented. Except in this case the victim doesn't even get a warning box. If CCP felt the Lofty needed to be fixed, why doesn't this?
Jorden Ishonen
Doomheim
#179 - 2013-07-24 04:10:41 UTC
Ban Bindy wrote:
CCP Falcon wrote:
Jonathon Oday wrote:
Then, through my own naivety and greed, I fall for the Margin Trading Scam...


You just openly admitted that you tried to get greedy and exploit someone for fast easy profit and it didn't pay off.

Instead, it backfired on you and put you out of pocket. These things happen, you dust yourself off and keep moving.

Sometimes you win, sometimes you lose. You just have to remember that somewhere out there in New Eden, there's always someone smarter, more persuasive, more manipulative, or sometimes just more outright lucky than you.

Roll the dice, don't think twice. This is the way of things.

Welcome to EVE.


This is why, despite the fact that I play this game, I will be totally delighted to watch the whole company go up in flames.



I'm totally delighted right now, mostly because I play EVE, but also because I enjoy watching people with brain damage brag about giving money to people they don't like.
Zoe Ozran
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#180 - 2013-07-24 04:34:44 UTC
Well, I learned something today. Had no idea this was a thing.