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Dueling Made Fair
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Omnathious Deninard
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#41 - 2013-03-08 19:44:57 UTC
There is nothing in eve meant to be fair. It is an unfair game, it has been from the start and hopefully will continue to be that way forever.
Fairness come from games like hello kitty online and my little ponies online where you probably get an achievement for typing in your name correctly.

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.
Sura Sadiva
Entropic Tactical Crew
#42 - 2013-03-08 20:34:59 UTC
Bud Austrene wrote:
Personally, I would like to see just how good I really am. I am pretty good at killing cripples and the under privileged but just how good would I be if my opponent was not ambushed and outgunned.



Then buy 30 incursus, move in low and search for 1 vs 1 frigates engagments (you'll be surprised to find out how many there will be happy to honor an 1 vs 1). When you will have lost all of your 30 frigates you'll starts to figure how things work:

Review every single fight.

Tune the fitting.

Raise and repeat.

Sometime you will be killed cause outshipped, sometime cause was a trap, sometime cause you were unlucky, sometime simply cause your opponent is better and more experienced.

But - guess what - at some point you will win a fight where you were outgunned, where you started in disadvantage, against a stronger opponent (for ship, skills or whatever); will be pleaseable and this feeling will compensate you of everything.

And after tasting the first blood you will start to think how stupid was the HS duelling system idea.


But I know now you will reply that this is impossible cause as we all know is impossible to move in low without automaatically explode to some gatecamp.
Mag's
Azn Empire
#43 - 2013-03-08 20:35:37 UTC
Bud Austrene wrote:
Mag's wrote:
Who forces anyone to duel? What the hell is an unfair advantage?


An unfair advantage is where one has outside help (remote repair). An unfair advantage would be exploiting ones ignorance of the game. An unfair advantage is where a person is out numbered. The skills that i have to put T2 modules and T2 guns in a rifter would give me an unfair advantage over someone with low fitting skills.

Just the 1 1/2 years of experience i have gives me an unfair advantage over a new player fresh out of the tutorials. The training that Chuck Norris has done gives him quite an unfair advantage over me.

Do you need more examples of what an unfair advantage is?
Nothing of what you've posted, is unfair in Eve. The only time fair could even be considered part of Eve, is at the point of balancing modules and ships and the fact that ALL players have the same options open to them. That's the point even the notion of fair, ends in Eve.

But that post and it's mention of Chuck Norris, highlighted the problem here. You have a issue differentiating RL ethics and Eve. This also shows in the fact you mention bullies and griefers, in your sig.
Eve is designed to be a sandbox, where everyone gets the same tools and options available. It's actively promoted as being a place where scamming, stealing and spying are prevalent activities. Eve is not and never will be fair, that's the whole point of it's sandbox nature. Just because it allows you to succeed in whatever you want, doesn't mean that others cannot do the same, or try and stop you.

You have options open to you already and I suggest you use them.
But I have a feeling no matter what ridiculous changes are made to suit your needs, there will always be a reason for you to claim 'cheat' or 'unfair'. What's next? Oh but he has a better computer and internet connection? Roll

Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.
Velicitia
XS Tech
#44 - 2013-03-08 20:38:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Velicitia
Mag's wrote:
What the hell is an unfair advantage?


When the other guy is better prepped than you (i.e. _YOU_ didn't do your homework).

What is it ... Rule 3 or 4 of EvE -- if it's a fair fight, someone did something wrong...

One of the bitter points of a good bittervet is the realisation that all those SP don't really do much, and that the newbie is having much more fun with what little he has. - Tippia
Bud Austrene
Secure Haven
#45 - 2013-03-08 20:39:24 UTC
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
There is nothing in eve meant to be fair. It is an unfair game, it has been from the start and hopefully will continue to be that way forever.
Fairness come from games like hello kitty online and my little ponies online where you probably get an achievement for typing in your name correctly.


And I am saying that maybe now is the time to change that.
I believe that the constant changes that CCP is making in the game is an effort to stay competitive in the market place.
CCP's buffing of high sec I believe is an effort to retain members and attract new players.

CCP Seagull in a blog somewhere said that most of the EVE players are playing solo in high sec.
CCP's buffing of high sec was not in the best interest of PVPers.
But i think is is obvious that it is good business to cater the those that keep you in business (carebears).

CCP has a history of buffing carebear play.
And i understand that. They have bills to pay and toys to buy.

In examining the possibles that might result from having a part of EVE where dueling would be fair (arenas) and separate from the main game I see only positive results. Everyone wins.

The hard core PVPers, suicide gankers and such would not participate. But the new player, bored with fair fights that he can't win would join the existing PVPer's thus increasing the PVP player base.
It might put a bit of a backbone into the carebears if they had an easier way to learn PVP.

I think it has better possibilities for everyone than CCP continuing to buff carebear stuff and nerfing Pvper's.
And that is what they have done in the past and there is no reason for them to change course and quit.
Unless they can have a more attractive alternative that is good business for them.

If they can replace every disgruntled PVPer who rage-quits with two care bears that like to mine, they might be sad all the way to the bank

Yes I am an alt. I see no reason to make it easy for bullies and greifers

Omnathious Deninard
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#46 - 2013-03-08 20:50:07 UTC
Lions will always need sheep to prey upon, if you give sheep lush green fields, the sheep will grow on numbers and when there are too many sheep the lions will come in. This is not what would be considered fair by the sheep but for over all it is balanced.

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.
Bud Austrene
Secure Haven
#47 - 2013-03-08 20:58:45 UTC
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
Lions will always need sheep to prey upon, if you give sheep lush green fields, the sheep will grow on numbers and when there are too many sheep the lions will come in. This is not what would be considered fair by the sheep but for over all it is balanced.


So you want to make is easier on the carebears in hopes that they will provide more prey for you?
But what if they pull your teeth and declaw you before you are allowed to approach the carebear herd?

Will you rage-quit and make room for more carebears?

Yes I am an alt. I see no reason to make it easy for bullies and greifers

Velicitia
XS Tech
#48 - 2013-03-08 21:02:20 UTC
Sura Sadiva wrote:



But I know now you will reply that this is impossible cause as we all know is impossible to move in low without automaatically explode to some gatecamp.




best part is when that camp is manned by a bunch of **** pilots in T2 fits ... and your gang of lol-fit (Meta-0) ships spanks it.

One of the bitter points of a good bittervet is the realisation that all those SP don't really do much, and that the newbie is having much more fun with what little he has. - Tippia
Omnathious Deninard
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#49 - 2013-03-08 21:02:46 UTC
It is already easy enough for players in high sec, no need to make it easier. And a Shepard would never try to de claw and pull the teeth of a lion they shoot them, kinda like high sec.

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.
Bud Austrene
Secure Haven
#50 - 2013-03-08 21:15:25 UTC
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
It is already easy enough for players in high sec, no need to make it easier. And a Shepard would never try to de claw and pull the teeth of a lion they shoot them, kinda like high sec.


That does not seem like a good balance and that is what i am saying. That is what the future holds unless CCP can be shown another way.

I came up with one that i think would have positive results. It is better than the results you are prophesying.

Do you have any ideas that could sway CCP to change the direction that they seem to be heading?

Yes I am an alt. I see no reason to make it easy for bullies and greifers

Luc Chastot
#51 - 2013-03-08 21:39:52 UTC
I lost a frig and 200m in implants to what should have been an easy Cormorant kill, but turned out to be an OG-boosted ship with insta-lock. Learn from your mistakes and move on. Dueling is fine.

Make it idiot-proof and someone will make a better idiot.

Screenlag
Armaggedon Inc.
RAZOR Alliance
#52 - 2013-03-08 22:05:37 UTC
Personally I engage anyone I think I could have a fair fight with. I fly cruisers and BCs, and I duel cruisers and BCs. Had great fun until I got podded :I Only have myself to blame though
Omnathious Deninard
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#53 - 2013-03-08 22:09:36 UTC
Luc Chastot wrote:
I lost a frig and 200m in implants to what should have been an easy Cormorant kill, but turned out to be an OG-boosted ship with insta-lock.

We are sorry for your loss.

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.
Omnathious Deninard
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#54 - 2013-03-08 22:14:31 UTC
Bud Austrene wrote:
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
It is already easy enough for players in high sec, no need to make it easier. And a Shepard would never try to de claw and pull the teeth of a lion they shoot them, kinda like high sec.


That does not seem like a good balance and that is what i am saying. That is what the future holds unless CCP can be shown another way.

I came up with one that i think would have positive results. It is better than the results you are prophesying.

Do you have any ideas that could sway CCP to change the direction that they seem to be heading?

The balance is there because you have the same options. As I am sure you already know it will take the same amount of skill points for all players to train gunnery 5, if you don't chose to that is fine, but don't cry about balance afterward.
You have the same options as you opponent in a duel, you can bring RR support, and OGB support, hell after you accept the duel you can dock up real quick and switch ships completely, and your opponent can do the same. That is balance in a sandbox.

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.
Bud Austrene
Secure Haven
#55 - 2013-03-08 22:36:47 UTC
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
Bud Austrene wrote:
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
It is already easy enough for players in high sec, no need to make it easier. And a Shepard would never try to de claw and pull the teeth of a lion they shoot them, kinda like high sec.


That does not seem like a good balance and that is what i am saying. That is what the future holds unless CCP can be shown another way.

I came up with one that i think would have positive results. It is better than the results you are prophesying.

Do you have any ideas that could sway CCP to change the direction that they seem to be heading?

The balance is there because you have the same options. As I am sure you already know it will take the same amount of skill points for all players to train gunnery 5, if you don't chose to that is fine, but don't cry about balance afterward.
You have the same options as you opponent in a duel, you can bring RR support, and OGB support, hell after you accept the duel you can dock up real quick and switch ships completely, and your opponent can do the same. That is balance in a sandbox.


But is that new player friendly? Is that in the best interest of CCP?
I do believe they are wanting to increase their income.

What you are talking about got EVE to where it is today, but from all indication they are going to continue to cater to the carebears.
Where does that leave you?

Yes I am an alt. I see no reason to make it easy for bullies and greifers

Mag's
Azn Empire
#56 - 2013-03-08 22:38:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Mag's
Bud Austrene wrote:
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
It is already easy enough for players in high sec, no need to make it easier. And a Shepard would never try to de claw and pull the teeth of a lion they shoot them, kinda like high sec.


That does not seem like a good balance and that is what i am saying. That is what the future holds unless CCP can be shown another way.

I came up with one that i think would have positive results. It is better than the results you are prophesying.

Do you have any ideas that could sway CCP to change the direction that they seem to be heading?
Shown another way? Why would we want to change the direction CCP is heading? They already tried another direction, it was called Incarna. It happened to be the worst expansion ever released and the subscriber numbers as well as login counts, took a nose dive.

They saw the error of their ways and went back the what Eve is all about. Retribution is what came as a result of that understanding and it has been the best expansion ever released.

So no, your ideas would not result in a better Eve, or a positive change. Of that I am sure.

Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.
Omnathious Deninard
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#57 - 2013-03-08 22:42:21 UTC
Bud Austrene wrote:
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
Bud Austrene wrote:
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
It is already easy enough for players in high sec, no need to make it easier. And a Shepard would never try to de claw and pull the teeth of a lion they shoot them, kinda like high sec.


That does not seem like a good balance and that is what i am saying. That is what the future holds unless CCP can be shown another way.

I came up with one that i think would have positive results. It is better than the results you are prophesying.

Do you have any ideas that could sway CCP to change the direction that they seem to be heading?

The balance is there because you have the same options. As I am sure you already know it will take the same amount of skill points for all players to train gunnery 5, if you don't chose to that is fine, but don't cry about balance afterward.
You have the same options as you opponent in a duel, you can bring RR support, and OGB support, hell after you accept the duel you can dock up real quick and switch ships completely, and your opponent can do the same. That is balance in a sandbox.

Where does that leave you?

Wherever I want to be.

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.
Velicitia
XS Tech
#58 - 2013-03-08 22:51:38 UTC
Bud Austrene wrote:
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
It is already easy enough for players in high sec, no need to make it easier. And a Shepard would never try to de claw and pull the teeth of a lion they shoot them, kinda like high sec.


That does not seem like a good balance and that is what i am saying. That is what the future holds unless CCP can be shown another way.

I came up with one that i think would have positive results. It is better than the results you are prophesying.

Do you have any ideas that could sway CCP to change the direction that they seem to be heading?



You're missing the point.

In Hisec, the sheep are the AFK-miners and uber carebears that cry for a mechanics change every ******* time they lose a ship -- it's hisec, it should be 100% safe all the time.

The lions are the pilots in the "leet pee vee pee" corps (and, to a degree, bored nullsec pilots).

The shepherds are an in-between. skilled enough in PVP to be a lion ... but not necessarily looking for lulzy / easy kills.

Now, this isn't to say that shepherds are always "the good guys" -- I probably fall pretty solidly into that category, but I will shoot someone in the face for "no reason". Or, I get into a funk of "leave me the hell alone" and probably look more like a sheep...

One of the bitter points of a good bittervet is the realisation that all those SP don't really do much, and that the newbie is having much more fun with what little he has. - Tippia
Sura Sadiva
Entropic Tactical Crew
#59 - 2013-03-09 00:20:13 UTC
Bud Austrene wrote:
But is that new player friendly? Is that in the best interest of CCP?
I do believe they are wanting to increase their income.


Actually, just the unfair nature of EVE pvp and the open world setting is the most new player friendly element.

The lack of premade fiilters is what allow you to bring with you in gang a 5 days old player and to give him a role, even only to add a point or a web, and the be the hero, e decisive element in the fight.

In your world that 5 days old player would be stucked forever in 1 vs 1 duels against other 5 days old players with always the same identical ships. And so for month, without a chance to feel a real PVP situation.


Keep in mind:

"Fairness" always protect the status quo, ensure the one with more power to hold their position saving them from some unexpected event; like if I'm going to gank an hopeless noob and all of sudden 10 more noob jump in to take me in trap. Buaaah is unfair 10 vs 1! Yes, is unfair, and is fine so.







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