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Has Heth lost it?

Author
Rhiannon Dellacorte
Liberty Vanguard
#41 - 2013-03-07 15:22:02 UTC
I was going to put "will" up there in "will take you seriously" but then I realized I'm actually pretty late to this game and there's a very good chance nobody has been taking you seriously for a long time now.

Rules of Acquisition #261

A wealthy man can afford anything except a conscience.

Malcolm Khross
Doomheim
#42 - 2013-03-07 15:22:40 UTC
BloodBird wrote:


I would like to remind you that the Fact the Federation is attacking you is your own damn fault and how you should keep in mind your part in this whole mess, but I suspect you know this already and, as stated, are simply saying what won't get you smacked over the back of your head by your fellow provist thugs.


I would like to remind you that the Federation attacks of its own discretion, unless you need the Caldari to fire your own guns for you?

BloodBird wrote:
Freedom of Speech - you just have to love being reminded of how great it is, when you see clear examples of people who don't have it.


I find it amusing that you suspect a capsuleer wouldn't be capable of free speech and free thought. Even workers in the State have free speech, or have you missed the news lately?

~Malcolm Khross

Knoot Enderas
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#43 - 2013-03-07 15:55:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Knoot Enderas
Malcolm Khross wrote:
At least we continue to converse with mutual respect to one another, despite our apparent disagreements.

We are in complete agreement regarding armed uprising. However, I would touch on your final point about the Caldari way being to sue others in a court of corporate law, particularly since one of the articles I linked to you was of that exact procedure being single-handedly disregarded by the wave of an executive order.

I would also disagree that it is not the business of Caldari capsuleers to concern ourselves with matters of the State, I would argue that it is our duty to do so. We who claim to be loyal to the Caldari and to serve the State have a duty and responsibility to serve in the best interests of the State and the Caldari people and to devote our efforts and resources to this service in the proper spirit of the Caldari.

The verbal uprising is perhaps not the most fitting way and true to our ideals, but these are strange and precarious times for us as a people and as a nation.

Bright stars and clear horizons, mate.


Khross-haan,

I'm not aware of the details surrounding the Caldari Business Tribunal case of Intara Direct Action vs Kaalakiota Corporation. However, the men and women of the Pyre Falcon Defence Combine strike me as good patriots, not as slanderers. If the case had to be shut down for purposes of national security, I could understand. This kind of thing should certainly remain a very rare exception.

In this case, I think that political change within the State is being driven by technological innovation, and not necessarily in a good way. Political affiliation in the State has traditionally been determined at the corporate scale, with employees following the corporate line. The freedom afforded to capsuleers means that they are not bound to corporate policies and indoctrination in the same way. This makes them loose cannons in a way that other corporate citizens are not, to the detriment of political stability and respect for legal procedures and the niceties of corporate law. The Malkalen V rally is certainly an example of this disturbing trend.
BloodBird
The Crucible.
#44 - 2013-03-07 15:56:35 UTC
Nomistrav wrote:
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
To be fair, I'd be just as happy if the Intaki system were not part of the warzone - but Concord decided otherwise. As such it is either a bastion for the FDU or the State Protectorate.

Given those two choices, you can hardly blame the State Protectorate for prosecuting legal war targets in a system that is an official part of CEWPA theater of war. Nor can you claim that what the STPRO does is any different from the actions of the FDU - simply because you happen to hold the belief that Intaki belongs in the Federation. Many Intaki do not.

So don't rail at the Caldari - rail at Concord. Get Intaki removed from the CEWPA legislation and then nobody will fight over it anymore.


Quite the contrary, I do not believe Intaki belongs in the Federation - I merely mean as it is, we are tied in this war. It belongs to the Intaki, and only the Intaki. I apologize if what I am trying to convey is misunderstood, I do admit that I have issues in explaining my opinions directly.

Addendum: I'm curious as to how many would support the ideal that Intaki should be removed from the CEWPA legislation... Then again, I am even more curious as to how many would support the ideal that Luminaire be added...


Quite the sense of entitlement you have here, don't you?

Keep a few things in mind, please:

First of all, the Intaki System is under the lawful and direct control of the Intaki Assembly, a democratically elected government body that enforces the will of the majority among the people, like all democratic governments. This Federation was built and shaped over the years by plenty of Intaki, among other groups. We support the Assembly. The Assembly supports the Federation and the Assembly's part in it. We MADE this Federation, we were as much a part as everyone else and our influence can be felt almost all over the Union. The Intaki Assembly will secede from this Union only when the majority votes of the people says so, and not a second before. No-one else has a right to decide otherwise. Not you, not me, not my CEO, or former President Fouritain, or any other Federal politician, or the Caldari Statists or anyone.

We are not going anywhere, without the people's direct and full approval. And as long as we are a part of this Union, we WILL support it, added to the CEWPA war-zone or not.

Secondly, the CEWPA was indeed made by CONCORD, and in doing so all of Placid was set under the aegis of this war-zone, among other places. You are mad and complaining that we are part of the Federation, now that things are not going so well. Quite the fair-weather friend you seem to be. When the entire rest of the war-zone fell some years ago, what did you feel, what did you think about it? I would really like to know this.

You see, when the whole of the war-zone fell earlier all - let me repeat that - ALL other systems had their governments and leaderships strong-armed away and replaced with oppressive corporate leaderships that demonstrated with reckless abandon how little they cared for the average citizens or anything but ravaging away as much resources as they could. All systems, all planets, all settlements and all the peoples of the annexed regions felt the State's whips - except for the Intaki solar system.

You see, our home-system was lucky enough to be 'won' by the single most fair-minded and civilized of all Caldari mega's - Ishukone. Where everyone else was eager to instill their will like good little hypocrites Ishokune sat down with the Assembly and made a deal - A DEAL - with the Assembly. As far as I know this was done in a civilized manner among equals working out a fair and profitable arrangement that benefited all parties, and it was declared as legal by the Assembly - ergo, it was legal by Federal law.

At this point Intaki was unique among Placid systems in that the Ishukone corp had the rights to the space-born Shipping and Security franchise, and nothing else. When the Federation eventually re-gained control of this system very little changed, as opposed to all other systems where liberating a system saw the Statist invaders cleared out and the mega's lose all their 'investments' and with that trillions of isk. Ishukone is the only mega to have made a great deal of profit from doing something as simple as making a deal with the locals, and the Intaki system is the only one to be left entirely alone, until now.

As a people, we have been extremely privileged. While all other system live in fear of the return of State oppression - assuming the mega's dare to risk moving in again to re-gain their 'property', that is - citizens of our worlds have had comparatively little change, overall, beyond some shortages of high-end supplies. The Assembly even told the Federation Navy to NOT move into our system, because this would violate previous arrangements with the Federal-level leadership that the Assembly has made.

Now is the time to support our world any way we can. Our armed forces are mobilized from what I hear, and Mordu's Legion who was hired to provide security are assisting, and the provist invaders are being killed for setting foot on Intaki soil. It is not over yet, likely will not be for a long time, so support is welcome and appreciated.

Your complaining in public however, there is no time for. So in closing, please stop doing that - calm down if you have not already, grant all the other peoples in the war-zone a though and compare them with our situation, and be thankful that we have been spared any major impacts thus far. And keep in mind:

The Intaki are not fair-weather friends. We will be here, in this Federation, and we will do what we can. This is what is asked of every member, this is what we will do.
BloodBird
The Crucible.
#45 - 2013-03-07 16:11:18 UTC
Rhiannon Dellacorte wrote:
When a person starts using ordinary words as proper nouns, they should no longer be taken seriously. This is why nobody takes Valerie Valate seriously and now its why nobody takes you seriously.


When your opinion has been codified into law I will take it seriously and consider what you said here in a serious manner for proper seriousness.


Malcolm Khross wrote:
BloodBird wrote:


I would like to remind you that the Fact the Federation is attacking you is your own damn fault and how you should keep in mind your part in this whole mess, but I suspect you know this already and, as stated, are simply saying what won't get you smacked over the back of your head by your fellow provist thugs.


I would like to remind you that the Federation attacks of its own discretion, unless you need the Caldari to fire your own guns for you?


If you start a fist fight with me, you lose all rights to complain if I then grind your face into the pavement.

When the State started this war with us they lost all rights to complain that the Federation is fighting back. And yet, you insist.

Malcolm Khross wrote:
BloodBird wrote:
Freedom of Speech - you just have to love being reminded of how great it is, when you see clear examples of people who don't have it.


I find it amusing that you suspect a capsuleer wouldn't be capable of free speech and free thought. Even workers in the State have free speech, or have you missed the news lately?



Yes, indeed I saw how that works:

Open mouth.
Complain.
Be declared a non-entity and blown up for your troubles.

Resign from post in protest of fellow Caldari being blown up.
Be declared a traitor for doing so during war, and - extra added insult to most Caldri I'm sure - be accused of following a "Gallente" black ops plan.

As for Tuulinen, he has a history of either speaking his mind and get slapped for it, or tow the party-line like a good little boy without penalty. Draw from that whatever conclusions you like, Khross.
Knoot Enderas
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#46 - 2013-03-07 16:16:29 UTC
Free speech is not consequence-free speech.
Tiberious Thessalonia
True Slave Foundations
#47 - 2013-03-07 16:31:57 UTC
Free speech is a highly overrated concept and those of you who declare it as being an ideal worthy of consideration, and even of necessary value, are buying into a highly successful Gallentean imperialist notion.
Simon Louvaki
Khaldari InnoTektoniks and Analytical Solutions
#48 - 2013-03-07 17:34:44 UTC
Nomistrav wrote:


And I'm just supposed to forget that Intaki Prime is still up for grabs by the Caldari in our permanent war? Why should I - allow me to re-iterate as I'm spitting mad, now - why should any Intaki care about the Caldari and her homeworld when ours is constantly under threat of war? If our own homeworld cannot be left alone, how can you honestly expect that the Federation should just forfeit yours?


Unfortunatly Intaki Prime's status as a war zone is tied directly to Caldari Prime's status as not a war zone.

Nomistrav wrote:
I apologize for the outburst as I realize that the argument works both ways... Regardless, Intaki is still in the warzone and the Intaki Assembly would never stand a chance against the Caldari profiteers, the fact that we ever aligned with the Federation is most (in my opinion) of what dragged us into this mess in the first place.


I fully understand your position Nomistrav, an apology is not needed, emotion has a way of overturning reason.

-- "The weak of mind are quick to judge with slightest tempt; Thus fools go forth to spread false word." - The Scriptures, Book of Trials 2:13 - 2:21

--"At the narrow passage, there is no brother and no friend." - Hyasyoda Proverb

Veikitamo Gesakaarin
Doomheim
#49 - 2013-03-07 23:20:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Veikitamo Gesakaarin
BloodBird wrote:
As for Tuulinen, he has a history of either speaking his mind and get slapped for it, or tow the party-line like a good little boy without penalty. Draw from that whatever conclusions you like, Khross.


I would remind you that the Pyre Falcon Defence Combine is not a registered political party, it is a private military enterprise. That aside, I would add that Unity is Strength in times of national conflict and that whatever our opinions may be, ensuring the defence of the State will always take precedence over them.

To be held accountable for our thoughts and actions is a positive notion, for just as Operative Tuulinen is held accountable for his own as an employee, just as I am held accountable for mine in service to those I lead, then so should Executor Heth be held accountable for his own.

Operative Tuulinen should be commended that his own personal opinions integrate well with current corporate communications directives.

Kurilaivonen|Concern

Anslo
Scope Works
#50 - 2013-03-09 20:44:58 UTC
While it's great how other Gallenteans are trying to speak up for what we hold dear, you're making the rest of us look like assholes for no reasons.

FYI to everyone, not ALL Gallenteans think that the State must be absorbed or destroyed for peace to be secured. Hell, most don't. Just the old far right ultra-nationalists left over from the war WE STARTED BECAUSE WE TRIED TO FORCE THE CALDARI TO DO THINGS OUR WAY INSTEAD OF LETTING THEM BE CALDARI.

[center]-_For the Proveldtariat_/-[/center]

Nomistrav
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#51 - 2013-03-10 13:14:16 UTC
Anslo wrote:
While it's great how other Gallenteans are trying to speak up for what we hold dear, you're making the rest of us look like assholes for no reasons.

FYI to everyone, not ALL Gallenteans think that the State must be absorbed or destroyed for peace to be secured. Hell, most don't. Just the old far right ultra-nationalists left over from the war WE STARTED BECAUSE WE TRIED TO FORCE THE CALDARI TO DO THINGS OUR WAY INSTEAD OF LETTING THEM BE CALDARI.


I'd be careful with talk like that. Black Eagles already are offering rewards for those loyal to the Federation.

"As long as space endures,

as long as sentient beings exist,

until then, may I too remain

and dispel the miseries of the world."

~ Vremaja Idama

BloodBird
The Crucible.
#52 - 2013-03-10 15:19:56 UTC
Anslo wrote:
While it's great how other Gallenteans are trying to speak up for what we hold dear, you're making the rest of us look like assholes for no reasons.

FYI to everyone, not ALL Gallenteans think that the State must be absorbed or destroyed for peace to be secured. Hell, most don't. Just the old far right ultra-nationalists left over from the war WE STARTED BECAUSE WE TRIED TO FORCE THE CALDARI TO DO THINGS OUR WAY INSTEAD OF LETTING THEM BE CALDARI.


It's not this simple. It's never this simple. The previous war was ended a long time ago and a new one was started. This new war is not about what you claim here, not even the old one was about what you claim here. If you want to argue for the situation, examine all viewpoints and facts involved and present something better than the tired old propagandized viewpoint presented by the State.

In fact, I would like to know what you think of the situation. Explain to me what you think this war is about (the current one raging today) and possibly what you think needs be done to stop it and secure a lasting peace.
Visera Yanala
Caldari Navy
Caldari State
#53 - 2013-03-10 17:05:40 UTC
It would appear that my statement regarding support of the State and our administration has ruffled a few feathers, so to speak.

Simon Coal wrote:
For his entire time in office, he has peddled the notion that the Federation is the problem with the State. That Federal ideas had weakened it. That Federal practices had sapped it of vitality. That every act of corruption in the State was due to an emulation of the Federation. That has been his drumbeat all along.


Executor Heth has acted with the benefit of the greater good in mind. His actions have assisted in bolstering the security of the State and further strengthening our military capability. It may be true that the warzone was for a time dominated by the Federal Defense Union, but our solidarity and the capability of our pilots proved that the State military still has the edge. We do not tolerate dissenters. We do not tolerate insubordination. We do not tolerate those who would seek to undermine the authority entrusted to those in leadership positions. Every Citizen of the State has the right to voice their concerns through the proper channels dictated by their corporation's operating policy. Civil unrest is not the way to have your voice heard.

Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
To be honest, the Executor's opinions on the Federation would hold less water if the Federation wasn't attacking us, wasn't underminding us and if her politicians weren't dedicated to selling the idea that our destruction is somehow necessary for Gallente safety.

As for opinions on the latest... Propaganda is hardly limited to the Executor's office. It flows from every political office in every faction. The resignations are significant, but not widespread or persistent to cause serious problems. By next week they will be forgotten.


Truer words have never spoken. It is through the efforts of loyal capsuleers such as yourself that the State finds extra strength on matters such as these.

Gwen Ikiryo wrote:
I find the comments from Admiral Yanala somewhat disturbing.


Perhaps when you have served the State in a position of command for eight decades as I have, you will learn that directness when dealing with those who would attempt to defy or undermine that command is always the best solution.

Nomistrav wrote:
Tibus Heth and the whole of the Caldari have shown that there simply is no other alternative than absolute absorption into the Gallente Federation, unfortunately. What once was will become again.


Complete drivel.
Visera Yanala
Caldari Navy
Caldari State
#54 - 2013-03-10 17:05:51 UTC
Svetlana Scarlet wrote:
It is impossible to lose what you never had.

And Admiral Yanala should know better than to comment on civilian affairs. It is not the place of the Caldari Navy to interfere in internal corporate matters -- she can have whatever opinions she likes, but as long as she wears the uniform she is to keep them to herself. She is an instrument of the CEP and the naval command structure, and should remember her place. Frankly, if there is anyone committing a crime here, it is her.


While I respect the work you have conducted for the State during your time with the Independant Reserve, you really must learn to know your place and when it is wise to speak in the manner you have. My uniform is just that, a uniform. Nothing more. It simply signifies my rank and my conforming to the chain of command. It is my actions over the last eight decades that have defined my purpose within the command structure of the State. I have spent best part of a century devoting my life to the security of the State.

The safety and wellbeing of the Caldari people and the preservation and protection of corporate assets are the primary concerns of the Caldari Navy, and every one of the corporate security forces. Those who would seek to put either at risk forfeit the right to call themselves Caldari.

Anslo wrote:
While it's great how other Gallenteans are trying to speak up for what we hold dear, you're making the rest of us look like assholes for no reasons.

FYI to everyone, not ALL Gallenteans think that the State must be absorbed or destroyed for peace to be secured. Hell, most don't. Just the old far right ultra-nationalists left over from the war WE STARTED BECAUSE WE TRIED TO FORCE THE CALDARI TO DO THINGS OUR WAY INSTEAD OF LETTING THEM BE CALDARI.


Your words are extremely astute, if a little brash and unrefined.


In summary, I will continue to watch this broadcast. Quite a few interesting points have been brought forward among the usual speculation and paranoia that is to be expected from the minds of capsuleers.

It is not often I feel the need to tread here, however what needs to be understood is that now is not the time for the Caldari to be divided and fighting amongst ourselves. Our strength comes not in our numbers, but in our solidarity and our ability to work as a cohesive society despite our differences as Liberals, Practicals and Patriots.
Katrina Oniseki
Oniseki-Raata Internal Watch
Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
#55 - 2013-03-10 17:48:40 UTC
Respected Admiral,

Please do not concern yourself with the pointless opinions of independent capsuleers. Let the children bicker in your great shadow in ignorance. Those of us who understand your importance can merely bow in respect.

We salute you, Admiral Yanala.

Katrina Oniseki

Malcolm Khross
Doomheim
#56 - 2013-03-10 17:56:19 UTC
Admiral Yanala-haani,

It is somewhat surprising to see you make your presence here known but it is certainly an honor. Your stalwart support of the State and the Caldari people serves as an example of how we are to conduct ourselves, even should disagreements exist between us.

May the Winds bring profit and success to your continued efforts.

~M. Khross

~Malcolm Khross

Pieter Tuulinen
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#57 - 2013-03-10 18:18:08 UTC
I must admit that your reply to me has me a little star-struck, respected Admiral. Rest assured that my efforts in the war zone will remain undiminished.

For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.

Sakura Nihil
Faded Light
#58 - 2013-03-10 18:37:42 UTC
Visera Yanala wrote:

The safety and wellbeing of the Caldari people and the preservation and protection of corporate assets are the primary concerns of the Caldari Navy, and every one of the corporate security forces. Those who would seek to put either at risk forfeit the right to call themselves Caldari.

My, aren't you arrogant? Thinking yourself so important as to be able to tell someone that they're not "a true Caldari" because they disagree with your worldview.

If you feel so strongly about this, perhaps you should turn your attention to Executor Heth. He and his loyal forces seem to be putting both at risk right about now.
Malcolm Khross
Doomheim
#59 - 2013-03-10 18:53:13 UTC
Sakura Nihil wrote:
My, aren't you arrogant? Thinking yourself so important as to be able to tell someone that they're not "a true Caldari" because they disagree with your worldview.

If you feel so strongly about this, perhaps you should turn your attention to Executor Heth. He and his loyal forces seem to be putting both at risk right about now.


I think you'll find that what was actually stated was that anyone willfully putting either the Caldari people or the corporate assets that secure the provision and prosperity of the Caldari people at risk will be dealt with under Caldari law. "Forfeiting the right to be called Caldari" is a less-than-direct way to suggest that citizenship is forfeited by terrorists and traitors.

As for your final statement, the Admiral has already publicly and clearly stated that the Navy fully supports Executor Heth and believes he is acting in the best interests of the State and the Caldari people.

~Malcolm Khross

Gosakumori Noh
Coven of One
#60 - 2013-03-10 20:18:23 UTC
Sakura Nihil wrote:
If you feel so strongly about this, perhaps you should turn your attention to Executor Heth. He and his loyal forces seem to be putting both at risk right about now.


Indeed. Serving two masters will only lead to dying with one of them screaming about pop stars in a bunker.