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Energized Armor Layering Membrane renewal

Author
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#21 - 2013-03-07 23:25:25 UTC
Sigras wrote:
come to think of it; ive never actually seen these fit on any ship . . . now i know why . . . with the RAH not stacking against the EANM there is really no reason to use one especially with low slots more valuable than mids


It is my understanding that the RAH stacks with the DCU....
Verity Sovereign
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#22 - 2013-03-08 15:38:57 UTC
25% resist = 75% damage taken.

1/.75 = 33.3333% more EHP if you fit just 1 EANM and no other resist mod/rig.

A 2nd one increases EHP by 28%

At the moment, % increases to EHP have no stacking penalties - this is minor for PDUs, significant for trimarks and CDFs, and could be significant if one took an 8 low ship, and just fitted layering membranes.

There reaches a certain point where a layering membrane increases EHP more than a 1600mm plate - this is reached faster the higher your base EHP, thus it will happen on capitals first.

However, at the moment, the EANMs are just much more attractive, the third one still gives more EHP, and then on top of that, you can fit a DCII for a 17% increase to EHP of armor (and then a RAH with minimal stacking penalties, which would still result in the DCII doing a 15% EHP increase before the RAH has shifted any resists)

Thats 5 lows to fit before you can even think about the laying membrane being a better choice than some other low.

Keep in mind, those other mods also increase your effective repping power.

It seems completely fair that one should be able to get more EHP at the expense of decreased repping power.

buff this module
Gypsio III
Questionable Ethics.
Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
#23 - 2013-03-08 16:00:08 UTC
Verity Sovereign wrote:


Thats 5 lows to fit before you can even think about the laying membrane being a better choice than some other low.


Supercapitals, which are the only ships to use layering membranes, have more than five lows. BTW, you neglected to account for the armour resist gang link, which also stacks with EANMs. Unless you boost the layering membranes absurdly, they will continue to be only used on supercapitals, because they are the only ships with sufficient lowslots and a lack of need to fit other mods.

So, why do supercaps need more EHP?
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#24 - 2013-03-08 17:52:18 UTC
Verity Sovereign wrote:

At the moment, % increases to EHP have no stacking penalties - this is minor for PDUs, significant for trimarks and CDFs, and could be significant if one took an 8 low ship, and just fitted layering membranes.

There reaches a certain point where a layering membrane increases EHP more than a 1600mm plate - this is reached faster the higher your base EHP, thus it will happen on capitals first.



As you precluded to, increasing resists is better than increasing raw HP almost ALWAYS.... as damage reduction is far more potent than just increasing your hitpoints.

You did bring up a point I neglected in my analysis earlier...

The EALM competes with armor plates...
Armor plates not only require a significant amount of PG, but add mass, which results in lower prop-mod speeds and poorer agility. The EALM has no drawbacks.

Look at the raw HP provided by a RT Plate. At 15%, the base HP needed on the ship is then:
200 RT Plate = adds 525 HP, Equals EALM if BASE HP is 3500 (Between Cruiser and BC)
400 RT Plate = adds 1050 HP, Equals EALM if BASE HP is 7000 (Armor BS)
800 RT Plate = adds 2100 HP, Equals EALM if BASE HP is 14000 (Dual Plated Armor BS)
1600 RT Plate = adds 4200 HP, Equals EALM if BAS HP is 28000 (5x Plated Armegeddon)

Note, I said BASE HP.... capitalizing BASE on purpose... The Plates receive bonuses from your Hull Upgrades skill (25%), and from other modules like Trimarks... A triple Trimarked, HU V character gets a 90% boost to the armor added by a Plate... As such, the appropriate way to compare the EALM to plates is to take trimarks and skills out of the equation, and just compare base HP...

In short though, the "armor" boosting effect of the EALM just doesn't compete with plates, unless we are talking about capital ships. Even at 25%, if I reposted all the numbers (which would be factors of 2100 instead of 3500), the plates add a superior buffer (assuming you can fit them), unless we are talking triple plated BS's... Frankly, that's acceptable..

Boost the EALM!!!!!!
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#25 - 2013-03-08 18:02:40 UTC
Gypsio III wrote:
Verity Sovereign wrote:


Thats 5 lows to fit before you can even think about the laying membrane being a better choice than some other low.


Supercapitals, which are the only ships to use layering membranes, have more than five lows. BTW, you neglected to account for the armour resist gang link, which also stacks with EANMs. Unless you boost the layering membranes absurdly, they will continue to be only used on supercapitals, because they are the only ships with sufficient lowslots and a lack of need to fit other mods.

So, why do supercaps need more EHP?


Meh.... Supercaps don't need more EHP...

They seem to be pretty popular on Aeons and Avatars, with the extra lowslot to utilize them... but they are very rarely used on other ships. Also, there are no "faction/officer/deadspace" versions of the EALM, and so you end up with t2 versions competing with Officer/Deadspace EANM's, which ups the performance of the EANM quite a bit..
Gypsio III
Questionable Ethics.
Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
#26 - 2013-03-08 19:22:30 UTC
Don't get me wrong here, the EALM is fairly rubbish and does deserve to be more useful. But simply upping the % HP won't work very well. For a small boost, then subcaps still won't fit it because EANMs etc are still better, while a boost large enough to be useful for subcaps will do "entertaining" things to supercap EHP.

I'm trying to think of a change to it that makes it more useful for subcaps, but I'm not getting very far... Lol
Maybe make small, med and large versions that give less armour HP than a plate or (typical) trimark, but don't have those modules' mobility penalties? Without a XL version or a % modifier, then supercaps gain no benefit.


Jonas Sukarala
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#27 - 2013-03-08 23:23:17 UTC
maybe the only way of making them worth using over the EANM is to give them a big enough drawback so as to make them only better in certain situations/setups.
Then a large enough increase to HP % as to give them a better EHP increase than EANM.... like mini plates

Drawbacks being :
mass increase
pg increase

'Tech3 ships need to be put down, like a rabid dog drooling everywhere in the house, they are out of line' CCP Ytterbium Nerf missile range into place where is the TD missile change?  ..projectiles should use capacitor. ABC's should be T2 HABC and nerf web strength its still too high

Verity Sovereign
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#28 - 2013-03-09 00:08:05 UTC
How about -75% to capital armor repair amount?
A penalty to incoming repair amount too, if that is feasible with the current code (even more preferable, would just be a penalty to incoming capital sized repairs)

Your armor lasts longer, but is harder to repair.

For sub caps, you're already sacrificing resists which increase effective rep amount... for capitals that may fit these rather than plates like on sub caps, in addition to still having the mods needed for good resists, then it seems the appropriate thing is to bring in a similar penalty as seen with sub caps - your reps are less effective for the benefit of more EHP (and no agility penalty)
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