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Should nullsec industry > hisec industry?

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baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#1021 - 2013-04-09 19:50:49 UTC
Oh hey this theads back.
Murk Paradox
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#1022 - 2013-04-09 20:28:37 UTC
EvilweaselSA wrote:
Murk Paradox wrote:
Brings up a side point (not trying to derail here) but if you have a threadnaught with veterans educating on how mechanics work.. why does anyone ever need to go into null to see if a station has 4 slots or 40?

highsec nobodies pontificating on How Nullsec Works generally make hilariously dumb assumptions that betray a lack of any real understanding of the subject

highsec people can check our assertions when we say things like perimeter has more slots than all of scalding pass, but when they are making their own assertions they will tend to make constant errors because they're not familiar with the basic facts at all



It was more in reply to the general assumption of "you don't live in nullsec therefore you dont know" when this game is based on separate accounts to accomplish a great many things of which are based on secrecy or subterfuge =P

But yea, I understand your point.

This post has been signed by Murk Paradox and no other accounts, alternate or otherwise. Any other post claiming to be this holder's is subject to being banned at the discretion of the GM Team as it would violate the TOS in regards to impersonation. Signed, Murk Paradox. In triplicate.
Murk Paradox
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#1023 - 2013-04-09 20:29:45 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Oh hey this theads back.



LOL that's what I said when I first seen it pop up. Which is why I retracted my original post.

This post has been signed by Murk Paradox and no other accounts, alternate or otherwise. Any other post claiming to be this holder's is subject to being banned at the discretion of the GM Team as it would violate the TOS in regards to impersonation. Signed, Murk Paradox. In triplicate.
Frying Doom
#1024 - 2013-04-10 02:07:47 UTC
Beware of Mocam

Apparently EvE University is training people to bring back the dead.

Mocam the Necromancer. Lol

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!
Vilnius Zar
SDC Multi Ten
#1025 - 2013-04-10 08:04:42 UTC
If powerbloc "blue everything" carebear alliances are a thing of the past then 0.0 is allowed to be better (ie, never), but it should be on par.
Bi-Mi Lansatha
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#1026 - 2013-04-10 09:49:12 UTC
Primary Me wrote:
...So here we go, should nullsec industry be the equal or better than hisec or is the open, risk free hisec industrial machine necessary to keep the forges of Eve burning? Is it simply risk v reward, or more complex than that?
Better than highsec... that answer is no. A buff probably.

Why no, simple logic... You would have to have a very poor opinion of the Goonswarm Federation capabilities to think given control of a large percentage of industry they wouldn't find a way to use that to their advantage and to the disadvantage of everyone else.

The Goonswarm Federation has many smart and knowledgeable members who will find the cracks and use it to full advantage.
Dave Stark
#1027 - 2013-04-10 09:55:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Dave Stark
Bi-Mi Lansatha wrote:
Primary Me wrote:
...So here we go, should nullsec industry be the equal or better than hisec or is the open, risk free hisec industrial machine necessary to keep the forges of Eve burning? Is it simply risk v reward, or more complex than that?
Better than highsec... that answer is no. A buff probably.

Why no, simple logic... You would have to have a very poor opinion of the Goonswarm Federation capabilities to think given control of a large percentage of industry they wouldn't find a way to use that to their advantage and to the disadvantage of everyone else.

The Goonswarm Federation has many smart and knowledgeable members who will find the cracks and use it to full advantage.


even so, you still can't deny things such as high sec mining having a higher isk/m3 (and thus higher isk/hour) than null sec mining being justifiable.

hell, i was reading a piece by the mittani (yes, i know, don't look at me like that) about running an alliance or something, and he just point blank said ignore industry.
some might consider that notion absurd but clearly, it's working for goons. the fact that "ignore industry" works is a pretty big argument that something has to change.

http://www.tentonhammer.com/eve/spymaster/88
Quote:
Ignore Industrialists: In an alliance or corporation, industrialists are completely irrelevant and should never be allowed a voice in anything. Sound extreme? It isn’t. [more stuff, go read it yourself]

although, of course, that was put up on april first.
Shadow Lord77
Shadow Industries I
#1028 - 2013-04-10 10:10:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Shadow Lord77
Make null sec have the rare expensive items and high sec have the inexpensive easily obtainable items that you need lots of. Introduce trade between high sec and low sec, (+ null sec)

It makes sense what they've done. Why are some people arguing that null sec should be a **** fest? If logistics is an issue I had an idea for introducing tech 3 freighters which would hold 10M m3. They would have to be escorted of course.

Dunno there's a lot of possibilities to null sec rebalacing but arguing for making Null sec everything seems short sighted.
DrClit
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#1029 - 2013-04-10 10:12:52 UTC  |  Edited by: DrClit
I would much prefer a null sec with no sov or territory but with clusters of space that have different worth.

Having lived in null sec for years, with the communication channels and intel channels used in and out of the game null sec is a fairly manageable risk. Risk that you can not control is when you can not manage what is around you and since there is more chance of the unexpected happening in high sec that is why for me i believe high sec has more risk. I can list but i'm not going to.

This argument needs to be decided by first of all deciding what the vision of null sec should be. I think its pretty aragont of people to say the reason why null sec is stagnant is becuase most of the people that play eve find it more lucrative to play in high sec.

I play in high sec becuase its easier to get into a ship and go do what i enjoy the most which is playing the game with a bunch of internet nerds. I think the answer has to be to have islands of high sec with the core of null sec (my vision of null sec is one without sovs) creating islands creates markets and hubs for the null sec dwellers to visit.

If you think this is complete rubbish - answer me this, why is it that one of the most active systems in eve is the Torrinos to EC- gate? People do not go to null sec to mine and trade and take part in "Industry" they go to kill stuff. This is what alliances expect of you since most of the industry is hauled from jita. the quicker the community realise that industry in null sec is a rare activity the quicker we can put to bed this bull argument about "risk versus reward".

Quote:
If anyone has any business acumen you will understand that business will not venture into areas with high risk if you were clever you would promote null sec as being an incredibly safe are to live and that you can do your stuff in peace.


Afterall intel channels are blinking as soon as someone is anywhere near your area which has nothing to do with sov.
Bi-Mi Lansatha
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#1030 - 2013-04-10 10:15:33 UTC
Dave Stark wrote:
...even so, you still can't deny things such as high sec mining having a higher isk/m3 (and thus higher isk/hour) than null sec mining being justifiable....
I have no experience in 0.0 mining, but that does seem old.
Dave Stark
#1031 - 2013-04-10 10:19:13 UTC
Bi-Mi Lansatha wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
...even so, you still can't deny things such as high sec mining having a higher isk/m3 (and thus higher isk/hour) than null sec mining being justifiable....
I have no experience in 0.0 mining, but that does seem old.


granted in the month or so since originally did the maths trit etc has fallen so high sec lost some of it's isk/m3 value, but it's still above null sec, the only real argument that i'm wrong is rorq bonuses vs orca bonuses. a few days ago it was roughly 6% more isk/m3 mining in high sec, but rorq bonuses give you a 14% yield increase so it could be argued that null is actually worth more isk/hour but then there's the logistical costs, the interruption of neutrals in local, all that jazz.

but as far as numbers go, scordite isk/m3 > large grav site sov upgrade thingy isk/m3.
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#1032 - 2013-04-10 10:21:59 UTC
DrClit wrote:
I would much prefer a null sec with no sov or territory but with clusters of space that have different worth.

Having lived in null sec for years, with the communication channels and intel channels used in and out of the game null sec is a fairly manageable risk. Risk that you can not control is when you can not manage what is around you and since there is more chance of the unexpected happening in high sec that is why for me i believe high sec has more risk. I can list but i'm not going to.

This argument needs to be decided by first of all deciding what the vision of null sec should be. I think its pretty aragont of people to say the reason why null sec is stagnant is becuase most of the people that play eve find it more lucrative to play in high sec.

I play in high sec becuase its easier to get into a ship and go do what i enjoy the most which is playing the game with a bunch of internet nerds. I think the answer has to be to have islands of high sec with the core of null sec (my vision of null sec is one without sovs) creating islands creates markets and hubs for the null sec dwellers to visit.

If you think this is complete rubbish - answer me this, why is it that one of the most active systems in eve is the Torrinos to EC- gate? People do not go to null sec to mine and trade and take part in "Industry" they go to kill stuff. This is what alliances expect of you since most of the industry is hauled from jita. the quicker the community realise that industry in null sec is a rare activity the quicker we can put to bed this bull argument about "risk versus reward".

Quote:
If anyone has any business acumen you will understand that business will not venture into areas with high risk if you were clever you would promote null sec as being an incredibly safe are to live and that you can do your stuff in peace.


Afterall intel channels are blinking as soon as someone is anywhere near your area which has nothing to do with sov.


Industry is rare in null because there are only about 3% as many manufacturing slots in sov 0.0 as there are in hi-sec.

Regardless of whether players would like to do their manufacturing in their own space, they can't.


Your argument is like arguing against giving food to starving people because they don't eat much.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Bi-Mi Lansatha
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#1033 - 2013-04-10 10:25:34 UTC
Dave Stark wrote:
...it could be argued that null is actually worth more isk/hour but then there's the logistical costs, the interruption of neutrals in local, all that jazz....
It you know what you are doing in Highsec, the risk of attack from anything but small NPCs is very small. I am not sure the same can be said about 0.0. Blink
DrClit
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#1034 - 2013-04-10 10:26:04 UTC  |  Edited by: DrClit
Malcanis wrote:
DrClit wrote:
I would much prefer a null sec with no sov or territory but with clusters of space that have different worth.

Having lived in null sec for years, with the communication channels and intel channels used in and out of the game null sec is a fairly manageable risk. Risk that you can not control is when you can not manage what is around you and since there is more chance of the unexpected happening in high sec that is why for me i believe high sec has more risk. I can list but i'm not going to.

This argument needs to be decided by first of all deciding what the vision of null sec should be. I think its pretty aragont of people to say the reason why null sec is stagnant is becuase most of the people that play eve find it more lucrative to play in high sec.

I play in high sec becuase its easier to get into a ship and go do what i enjoy the most which is playing the game with a bunch of internet nerds. I think the answer has to be to have islands of high sec with the core of null sec (my vision of null sec is one without sovs) creating islands creates markets and hubs for the null sec dwellers to visit.

If you think this is complete rubbish - answer me this, why is it that one of the most active systems in eve is the Torrinos to EC- gate? People do not go to null sec to mine and trade and take part in "Industry" they go to kill stuff. This is what alliances expect of you since most of the industry is hauled from jita. the quicker the community realise that industry in null sec is a rare activity the quicker we can put to bed this bull argument about "risk versus reward".

Quote:
If anyone has any business acumen you will understand that business will not venture into areas with high risk if you were clever you would promote null sec as being an incredibly safe are to live and that you can do your stuff in peace.


Afterall intel channels are blinking as soon as someone is anywhere near your area which has nothing to do with sov.


Industry is rare in null because there are only about 3% as many manufacturing slots in sov 0.0 as there are in hi-sec.

Regardless of whether players would like to do their manufacturing in their own space, they can't.


Your argument is like arguing against giving food to starving people because they don't eat much.


Build a pos then douche. Your argument is like arguing against starving people dont eat much food anyway so why give them any to begin with.
Dave Stark
#1035 - 2013-04-10 10:27:44 UTC
Bi-Mi Lansatha wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
...it could be argued that null is actually worth more isk/hour but then there's the logistical costs, the interruption of neutrals in local, all that jazz....
It you know what you are doing in Highsec, the risk of attack from anything but small NPCs is very small. I am not sure the same can be said about 0.0. Blink


exactly, the fact that high sec doesn't have such interruptions means even with rorqual bonuses null sec mining is unlikely to be more profitable even if it can be argued that it is on paper.
DrClit
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#1036 - 2013-04-10 10:37:02 UTC  |  Edited by: DrClit
Dave Stark wrote:
Bi-Mi Lansatha wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
...it could be argued that null is actually worth more isk/hour but then there's the logistical costs, the interruption of neutrals in local, all that jazz....
It you know what you are doing in Highsec, the risk of attack from anything but small NPCs is very small. I am not sure the same can be said about 0.0. Blink


exactly, the fact that high sec doesn't have such interruptions means even with rorqual bonuses null sec mining is unlikely to be more profitable even if it can be argued that it is on paper.


The risk of attack is much higher in high sec just becuase the chance of the unexpected happening is much higher than living in null sec. OK you have awoxers but thats only the same as high sec. when there is an abundance of players thats when the risk is at the highest, you don't get anywhere near the concentration of people in one system like you get in high sec.

If you get caught in a belt in null sec thats your own fault for not watching intel, not being on comms, not being in a fleet, being part of an alliance that doesn't have a roaming defence fleet and not being aligned to warp to a safe point.

i'll let you in on a little secret, i nearly got ganked in high sec with nearly 4bil inthe hull of my freighter. High sec ganking is happening more often and their are corporations set up for this type of game play,
Dave Stark
#1037 - 2013-04-10 10:39:22 UTC
DrClit wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
Bi-Mi Lansatha wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
...it could be argued that null is actually worth more isk/hour but then there's the logistical costs, the interruption of neutrals in local, all that jazz....
It you know what you are doing in Highsec, the risk of attack from anything but small NPCs is very small. I am not sure the same can be said about 0.0. Blink


exactly, the fact that high sec doesn't have such interruptions means even with rorqual bonuses null sec mining is unlikely to be more profitable even if it can be argued that it is on paper.


The risk of attack is much higher in high sec just becuase the chance of the unexpected happening is much higher than living in null sec. OK you have awoxers but thats only the same as high sec. when there is an abundance of players thats when the risk is at the highest, you don't get anywhere near the concentration of people in one system like you get in high sec.

If you get caught in a belt in null sec thats your own fault for not watching intel, not being on comms, not being in a fleet, being part of an alliance that doesn't have a roaming defence fleet and not being aligned to warp to a safe point.

i'll let you in on a little secret, i nearly got ganked in high sec with 4bil in my cargo hold high sec ganking is happening more often and their are corporations set up for this type of game play, if you get caught in null sec you were either very unlucky being bumped off the station or incredibly stupid, in most case its the latter.


i'll let you in on a secret; you don't have to be attacked to have your mining disrupted in null sec like you do in high sec.
Bi-Mi Lansatha
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#1038 - 2013-04-10 10:49:17 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
...Your argument is like arguing against giving food to starving people because they don't eat much...
If 0.0 doesn't get an industry buff the Goons will starve to death. Interesting. Blink
DrClit
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#1039 - 2013-04-10 10:50:22 UTC  |  Edited by: DrClit
Dave Stark wrote:
DrClit wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
Bi-Mi Lansatha wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
...it could be argued that null is actually worth more isk/hour but then there's the logistical costs, the interruption of neutrals in local, all that jazz....
It you know what you are doing in Highsec, the risk of attack from anything but small NPCs is very small. I am not sure the same can be said about 0.0. Blink


exactly, the fact that high sec doesn't have such interruptions means even with rorqual bonuses null sec mining is unlikely to be more profitable even if it can be argued that it is on paper.


The risk of attack is much higher in high sec just becuase the chance of the unexpected happening is much higher than living in null sec. OK you have awoxers but thats only the same as high sec. when there is an abundance of players thats when the risk is at the highest, you don't get anywhere near the concentration of people in one system like you get in high sec.

If you get caught in a belt in null sec thats your own fault for not watching intel, not being on comms, not being in a fleet, being part of an alliance that doesn't have a roaming defence fleet and not being aligned to warp to a safe point.

i'll let you in on a little secret, i nearly got ganked in high sec with 4bil in my cargo hold high sec ganking is happening more often and their are corporations set up for this type of game play, if you get caught in null sec you were either very unlucky being bumped off the station or incredibly stupid, in most case its the latter.


i'll let you in on a secret; you don't have to be attacked to have your mining disrupted in null sec like you do in high sec.


I'm sorry - i thought playing in null sec was all about playing as a team to build ecosystems, where people worked together to maintain security so that the one AFK cloaky doesnt disrupt your game play, so if this does happen there are things in place so that you can carry your operation on? I think what you are trying to do is sugar coat the fact that just becuase you live in null sec you think this gives you the right to earn more isk/hour, just because.
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#1040 - 2013-04-10 10:51:43 UTC
Bi-Mi Lansatha wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
...Your argument is like arguing against giving food to starving people because they don't eat much...
If 0.0 doesn't get an industry buff the Goons will starve to death. Interesting. Blink


Goons will be fine; 0.0 industrialists won't.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016