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Should nullsec industry > hisec industry?

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James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#481 - 2013-03-08 04:56:41 UTC
Alavaria Fera wrote:
Who needs analogies when in highsec you have delicious realities:

safety and rewards

and other banalities

And CONCORD fatalities

Dealt oh so swiftly

To undesired criminalities

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
Mallak Azaria
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#482 - 2013-03-08 05:05:15 UTC
Frying Doom wrote:
Ok then Outposts already have considerable features and subsequently, it worries me to upgrade it so heavily while the structure is so cheap when compared to a POS system and its costs over time, compared to abilities.


You said previously you have little experience with outposts, yet you claim to know everything about them. Outposts are quite expensive to setup & upgrade. You seem to be under the impression that it is free.

This post was lovingly crafted by a member of the Goonwaffe Posting Cabal, proud member of the popular gay hookup site somethingawful.com, Spelling Bee, Grammar Gestapo & #1 Official Gevlon Goblin Fanclub member.
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#483 - 2013-03-08 05:17:08 UTC
Mallak Azaria wrote:
Frying Doom wrote:
Ok then Outposts already have considerable features and subsequently, it worries me to upgrade it so heavily while the structure is so cheap when compared to a POS system and its costs over time, compared to abilities.

You said previously you have little experience with outposts, yet you claim to know everything about them. Outposts are quite expensive to setup & upgrade. You seem to be under the impression that it is free.

They've never set up an outpost, so they have no idea about the logistics involved (which is after all the costs of getting the parts).

In short: They're ignorant about the thing they're an "expert" in.

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Frying Doom
#484 - 2013-03-08 05:31:03 UTC
Mallak Azaria wrote:
Frying Doom wrote:
Ok then Outposts already have considerable features and subsequently, it worries me to upgrade it so heavily while the structure is so cheap when compared to a POS system and its costs over time, compared to abilities.


You said previously you have little experience with outposts, yet you claim to know everything about them. Outposts are quite expensive to setup & upgrade. You seem to be under the impression that it is free.

So you are so familiar with Outposts so how much is the fuel bill to keep it running, for say a year?

A large POS is around 500,000 isk an hour or 4,380,000,000 a year approximately. Costing 750 - 1 bill to set up.

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!
Frying Doom
#485 - 2013-03-08 05:33:14 UTC
Alavaria Fera wrote:
Mallak Azaria wrote:
Frying Doom wrote:
Ok then Outposts already have considerable features and subsequently, it worries me to upgrade it so heavily while the structure is so cheap when compared to a POS system and its costs over time, compared to abilities.

You said previously you have little experience with outposts, yet you claim to know everything about them. Outposts are quite expensive to setup & upgrade. You seem to be under the impression that it is free.

They've never set up an outpost, so they have no idea about the logistics involved (which is after all the costs of getting the parts).

In short: They're ignorant about the thing they're an "expert" in.

I am aware of the logistics involved in setting it up (now easier with the upgrade to freighters) but it is not just the initial setup that concerns me it is the long term running compared to POSs for determination of the amount of Industry slots they should contain.

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#486 - 2013-03-08 05:37:22 UTC
How much is the cost to keep an NPC station in highsec running (that people use like crazy) again?

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#487 - 2013-03-08 05:45:56 UTC
Also, let's compare stations to POSes, another really GREAT and POPULAR manufacturing alternative !

Instead of the actual method used, you know: "Jita and JF combo"

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Frying Doom
#488 - 2013-03-08 05:51:40 UTC
Alavaria Fera wrote:
How much is the cost to keep an NPC station in highsec running (that people use like crazy) again?

Well as the objective of this from my perspective is for player structures to be better than NPC ones. So the cost to use a slot would be more than that of a player owned one.

For the costs of the facilities you would need to ask CCP as that is a lore thingy.

But on a case of balancing, I can see the need for making an Outpost good with a slot usage isk sink involved but as to the number of slots.

Tippia wrote:
If CCP allowed multiple outposts per system, most nulsec areas would then have the potential to easily equal hisec for industry and research, but you would have to work for it.
Actually, it wouldn't. Outposts are still so hideously unable to even begin to come close to the capabilities of even a single station that you'd run out of planets long before you got something that even remotely resembled a highsec system.

I suppose I'll have to post my standard improvement requirement list in this thread too…

1. One outpost per system probably has to remain for sov reasons (sov needs a revamp, but let's break one thing at a time).
2. Every outpost type gets 50 each of every industry slot type. Industry-specific outposts get twice that (up from a best-case scenario of 10 of one type).
3. Every outpost type gets 20 offices; Gallente outposts get twice that (up from 4–8 / 24).
4. Every outpost type gets a 30% refinery; a 50% refinery is a single basic upgrade.
5. Basic industry upgrades add 50 each of every slot type (up from 5 of a specific type); Intermediate upgrades add 100 (up from 7); Advanced upgrades add 150 (up from 9). Time bonuses could probably remain the same.


So an Advanced upgraded Outpost would have 350 slots of each type (Industry Type having 400).

That is a lot of slots
NPC stations have normally 50 manufacturing slots, 10 copy slots. 20 Invention slots. 20 material research slots and 20 time efficiency research slots.

Frankly I thought my position (as you can only have one per system) of 50% of what you are requesting, with 75% as an out side was frankly a bit unbalanced towards outposts given the extra risk involved in an Outpost. but the fact that you will not take less than what is a massive number of slots is frankly a bit naive as you would frankly be lucky to get 50% of what was asked for.

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!
Frying Doom
#489 - 2013-03-08 05:56:22 UTC
Alavaria Fera wrote:
Also, let's compare stations to POSes, another really GREAT and POPULAR manufacturing alternative !

Instead of the actual method used, you know: "Jita and JF combo"

The objective from my perspective is to allow balance across the security system types slightly favouring the more dangerous spaces and player owned structures. To allow industry to be competative in all areas of space allowing for Reward=Capital outlay*risk or at least be better than it is now.

But as so often happen you have gone for the we want it all approach, the one seen all through this thread on the side of high sec.

So I will leave both sides to their we want it all approach until some cool heads re-enter the conversation.

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#490 - 2013-03-08 06:06:36 UTC
Frying Doom wrote:
Alavaria Fera wrote:
How much is the cost to keep an NPC station in highsec running (that people use like crazy) again?

Well as the objective of this from my perspective is for player structures to be better than NPC ones. So the cost to use a slot would be more than that of a player owned one.

For the costs of the facilities you would need to ask CCP as that is a lore thingy.

But on a case of balancing, I can see the need for making an Outpost good with a slot usage isk sink involved but as to the number of slots.

Tippia wrote:
If CCP allowed multiple outposts per system, most nulsec areas would then have the potential to easily equal hisec for industry and research, but you would have to work for it.
Actually, it wouldn't. Outposts are still so hideously unable to even begin to come close to the capabilities of even a single station that you'd run out of planets long before you got something that even remotely resembled a highsec system.

I suppose I'll have to post my standard improvement requirement list in this thread too…

1. One outpost per system probably has to remain for sov reasons (sov needs a revamp, but let's break one thing at a time).
2. Every outpost type gets 50 each of every industry slot type. Industry-specific outposts get twice that (up from a best-case scenario of 10 of one type).
3. Every outpost type gets 20 offices; Gallente outposts get twice that (up from 4–8 / 24).
4. Every outpost type gets a 30% refinery; a 50% refinery is a single basic upgrade.
5. Basic industry upgrades add 50 each of every slot type (up from 5 of a specific type); Intermediate upgrades add 100 (up from 7); Advanced upgrades add 150 (up from 9). Time bonuses could probably remain the same.


So an Advanced upgraded Outpost would have 350 slots of each type (Industry Type having 400).

That is a lot of slots
NPC stations have normally 50 manufacturing slots, 10 copy slots. 20 Invention slots. 20 material research slots and 20 time efficiency research slots.

Frankly I thought my position (as you can only have one per system) of 50% of what you are requesting, with 75% as an out side was frankly a bit unbalanced towards outposts given the extra risk involved in an Outpost. but the fact that you will not take less than what is a massive number of slots is frankly a bit naive as you would frankly be lucky to get 50% of what was asked for.


Yet having five high sec systems that out produce all of nullsec combined is perfectly fine. Even with 400 slots high sec would out produce null. What exactly is unbalanced about tippias idea?
Frying Doom
#491 - 2013-03-08 06:34:12 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Frying Doom wrote:
Alavaria Fera wrote:
How much is the cost to keep an NPC station in highsec running (that people use like crazy) again?

Well as the objective of this from my perspective is for player structures to be better than NPC ones. So the cost to use a slot would be more than that of a player owned one.

For the costs of the facilities you would need to ask CCP as that is a lore thingy.

But on a case of balancing, I can see the need for making an Outpost good with a slot usage isk sink involved but as to the number of slots.

Tippia wrote:
If CCP allowed multiple outposts per system, most nulsec areas would then have the potential to easily equal hisec for industry and research, but you would have to work for it.
Actually, it wouldn't. Outposts are still so hideously unable to even begin to come close to the capabilities of even a single station that you'd run out of planets long before you got something that even remotely resembled a highsec system.

I suppose I'll have to post my standard improvement requirement list in this thread too…

1. One outpost per system probably has to remain for sov reasons (sov needs a revamp, but let's break one thing at a time).
2. Every outpost type gets 50 each of every industry slot type. Industry-specific outposts get twice that (up from a best-case scenario of 10 of one type).
3. Every outpost type gets 20 offices; Gallente outposts get twice that (up from 4–8 / 24).
4. Every outpost type gets a 30% refinery; a 50% refinery is a single basic upgrade.
5. Basic industry upgrades add 50 each of every slot type (up from 5 of a specific type); Intermediate upgrades add 100 (up from 7); Advanced upgrades add 150 (up from 9). Time bonuses could probably remain the same.


So an Advanced upgraded Outpost would have 350 slots of each type (Industry Type having 400).

That is a lot of slots
NPC stations have normally 50 manufacturing slots, 10 copy slots. 20 Invention slots. 20 material research slots and 20 time efficiency research slots.

Frankly I thought my position (as you can only have one per system) of 50% of what you are requesting, with 75% as an out side was frankly a bit unbalanced towards outposts given the extra risk involved in an Outpost. but the fact that you will not take less than what is a massive number of slots is frankly a bit naive as you would frankly be lucky to get 50% of what was asked for.


Yet having five high sec systems that out produce all of nullsec combined is perfectly fine. Even with 400 slots high sec would out produce null. What exactly is unbalanced about tippias idea?

Ok so lets just look at Goonswarm and Test the biggest 2 to answer that.

Goonswarm 71 outposts
Test alliance 67 Out posts

So combined 138 Outposts
So under Tippias proposal they would have 48300 Manufacturing slots equaling 966 Hi-sec stations
48300 Copy Slots equaling 4830 High sec stations
48300 Invention slots equaling 2415 Hi-sec stations
48300 Material Research Stations equaling 2415 Hi-sec stations
48300 Time Efficiency Research equaling 2415 Hi-sec stations.

These calculations done at 350 per station so assuming they all have advanced upgrades but are not Industry type.

All of Hi-sec Empire contains 2996 Stations so just between the outposts owned by goonswarm and TEST would be greater than the manufacturing capability of the whole of high sec.
So yeah I do feel that would be unbalanced and having gone over the numbers like this I would be more inclined to say 5-10% of the amount you want would be balanced.

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#492 - 2013-03-08 07:52:52 UTC
Quote:

So yeah I do feel that would be unbalanced and having gone over the numbers like this I would be more inclined to say 5-10% of the amount you want would be balanced.

That would mean single stations in high sec would have more slots than entire null systems.
Frying Doom
#493 - 2013-03-08 08:05:59 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Quote:

So yeah I do feel that would be unbalanced and having gone over the numbers like this I would be more inclined to say 5-10% of the amount you want would be balanced.

That would mean single stations in high sec would have more slots than entire null systems.

Just wondering did you appear earlier in this thread as a pro-hi sec advocate. Your style of ridiculous comments seems similar.

But to make it easier for you I was referring to the total number of slots in non industry based stations with industry stations naturally having more. As I said earlier in this thread the cost of an out post is not that great when compared to the running costs of a POS

But I can understand your confusion after this comment
"Yet having five high sec systems that out produce all of nullsec combined is perfectly fine. Even with 400 slots high sec would out produce null. What exactly is unbalanced about tippias idea?"

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!
March rabbit
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#494 - 2013-03-08 08:06:28 UTC
Frying Doom wrote:
Sariah Kion wrote:
Tippia wrote:
…if you have this odd belief that players should be able to build something in player-controlled space that's better than what NPC can provide in NPC space (you know, to give the whole player-run thing some kind of reason for existing?.
Oh, and it also exists in pure numbers and embedded in the mechanics.


If this is what you're basing the legitimacy of your argument on no wonder you all keep falling flat on your face. Its this sense of entitlement that fuels the irrational demands and logic being spewed out from null sec bears.

So let me get this straight it is your belief that players who choose to be in more dangerous areas with less/no NPC facilities should be punished for their choice?

it's not about punishing for choice. It's about choice itself.

you have chosen to do industry in place where it is not as easy and good - it's your choice. Deal with it.

other examples:
you have chosen to live as criminal - don't cry about SS, NPC aggro and all this stuff. You made your choice.
you have chosen to live in WH - don't ask "why there is local everywhere and i have no local?" or "give me stations!". You made your choice.
i have chosen to run my pimped carebear mobile into low-sec: i have no rights to ask CCP "make it safer for me". I made my choice.

The same is with 0.0: people made their choice to live there. They have all the rights to live everywhere but they have chosen 0.0.

The Mittani: "the inappropriate drunked joke"
Frying Doom
#495 - 2013-03-08 08:17:12 UTC
March rabbit wrote:
Frying Doom wrote:
Sariah Kion wrote:
Tippia wrote:
…if you have this odd belief that players should be able to build something in player-controlled space that's better than what NPC can provide in NPC space (you know, to give the whole player-run thing some kind of reason for existing?.
Oh, and it also exists in pure numbers and embedded in the mechanics.


If this is what you're basing the legitimacy of your argument on no wonder you all keep falling flat on your face. Its this sense of entitlement that fuels the irrational demands and logic being spewed out from null sec bears.

So let me get this straight it is your belief that players who choose to be in more dangerous areas with less/no NPC facilities should be punished for their choice?

it's not about punishing for choice. It's about choice itself.

you have chosen to do industry in place where it is not as easy and good - it's your choice. Deal with it.

other examples:
you have chosen to live as criminal - don't cry about SS, NPC aggro and all this stuff. You made your choice.
you have chosen to live in WH - don't ask "why there is local everywhere and i have no local?" or "give me stations!". You made your choice.
i have chosen to run my pimped carebear mobile into low-sec: i have no rights to ask CCP "make it safer for me". I made my choice.

The same is with 0.0: people made their choice to live there. They have all the rights to live everywhere but they have chosen 0.0.

Over the last 10 years of EvE the balances have changed plus with the introduction of new parts of the game some of the old parts have been left behind.

Other parts of course were introduced broken and have just stayed that way.

Is it your opinion no one should complain over anything.

Miners should not have complained about the barge stats, Null residents shouldn't complain about sov, Incursion runners should not have complained about their nerf and no one should have complained about Incarna, We all chose to play the game so we should all just suck it up and except the games imbalances.

What a load.

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!
March rabbit
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#496 - 2013-03-08 08:22:04 UTC  |  Edited by: March rabbit
Frying Doom wrote:
March rabbit wrote:
Frying Doom wrote:
Sariah Kion wrote:
Tippia wrote:
…if you have this odd belief that players should be able to build something in player-controlled space that's better than what NPC can provide in NPC space (you know, to give the whole player-run thing some kind of reason for existing?.
Oh, and it also exists in pure numbers and embedded in the mechanics.


If this is what you're basing the legitimacy of your argument on no wonder you all keep falling flat on your face. Its this sense of entitlement that fuels the irrational demands and logic being spewed out from null sec bears.

So let me get this straight it is your belief that players who choose to be in more dangerous areas with less/no NPC facilities should be punished for their choice?

it's not about punishing for choice. It's about choice itself.

you have chosen to do industry in place where it is not as easy and good - it's your choice. Deal with it.

other examples:
you have chosen to live as criminal - don't cry about SS, NPC aggro and all this stuff. You made your choice.
you have chosen to live in WH - don't ask "why there is local everywhere and i have no local?" or "give me stations!". You made your choice.
i have chosen to run my pimped carebear mobile into low-sec: i have no rights to ask CCP "make it safer for me". I made my choice.

The same is with 0.0: people made their choice to live there. They have all the rights to live everywhere but they have chosen 0.0.

Over the last 10 years of EvE the balances have changed plus with the introduction of new parts of the game some of the old parts have been left behind.

Other parts of course were introduced broken and have just stayed that way.

Is it your opinion no one should complain over anything.

tried to change subject? failed.

I said what i said: it's your choice.

To answer to your "some parts are broken": yes, i can agree 0.0 sov is broken if we speak about industry. However it was "broken" from start. And everybody knows it. At the result 0.0 sov is bad for industry. You can push theme "CCP badly designed 0.0 sov industry and needs to reimplement it". However you can't speak about punishing players "for their choice to live in 0.0 sov".

The Mittani: "the inappropriate drunked joke"
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#497 - 2013-03-08 08:25:50 UTC
Frying Doom wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Quote:

So yeah I do feel that would be unbalanced and having gone over the numbers like this I would be more inclined to say 5-10% of the amount you want would be balanced.

That would mean single stations in high sec would have more slots than entire null systems.

Just wondering did you appear earlier in this thread as a pro-hi sec advocate. Your style of ridiculous comments seems similar.

But to make it easier for you I was referring to the total number of slots in non industry based stations with industry stations naturally having more. As I said earlier in this thread the cost of an out post is not that great when compared to the running costs of a POS

But I can understand your confusion after this comment
"Yet having five high sec systems that out produce all of nullsec combined is perfectly fine. Even with 400 slots high sec would out produce null. What exactly is unbalanced about tippias idea?"

Given that high sec stations are even cheaper than outposts I dont see why you are bringing up POS costs.

Unless you are gunning for either a slot nerf to high sec or vastly higher costs for using the slots
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#498 - 2013-03-08 08:32:19 UTC
Frying Doom wrote:

Well durr of course I haven't done anything for Goonswarm to get that. But your argument was that the skill books are available to all, if I fly into Null I am a part of that all. So no they are not available to all.


Are you implying that ANY corp would hand you skill books like that? I mean by your very weak rebuttal it sounds like you make a difference between GS or a null sec corp vs somewhere else corp. Nope buddy, in EvE you ask to YOUR corp mates, you should know that.


Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:

So your argument here is I need to join a medium or large corp for me to be able to profit from Null and that no people in small corps or solo should be able to live in Null profitably.

Is it my imagination or were people who used to play EvE more intelligent?


Guess what my alts lived in Minerva Corp (another null sec corp) and guess what? All time prime time maximum we had been 10 online tops and we STILL lived perfectly well and happy.

I am sorry you can flip it however you want, but it's not necessary in EvE to be a grunt in a 3000 strong alliance.
You can choose to be there but you don't need to be there.

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Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#499 - 2013-03-08 08:33:22 UTC
Frying Doom wrote:
Sariah Kion wrote:
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Frying Doom wrote:
Is it my imagination or where people who used to play EvE more intelligent?

*snip* Per Forum Rule 4, Personal attacks are prohibited. Please adhere to forum rules. Thanks. - ISD Cyberdyne


It looks like own SOV space in your head at this point.

You stay classy and keep sticking to the points being debated mkay......


Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.

-- Albert Einstein


Exactly. So let's create another thread like this again! P

EvE Online portal | EvE markets tutorials
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#500 - 2013-03-08 08:37:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Vaerah Vahrokha
Frying Doom wrote:

Frankly I thought my position (as you can only have one per system) of 50% of what you are requesting, with 75% as an out side was frankly a bit unbalanced towards outposts given the extra risk involved in an Outpost. but the fact that you will not take less than what is a massive number of slots is frankly a bit naive as you would frankly be lucky to get 50% of what was asked for.


Tippia takes into account the game limitation that hi sec does not have: max 1 outpost per system. So, in order to make a null sec system as good as the average 2-3 stations hi sec system, it'd have to support at least twice / thrice as many slots.

Of course then he/she proceeds exaggerating the numbers to support a certain "faction".

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