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Assault ships vs destroyers

Author
Zarnak Wulf
Amarrian Vengeance
Team Amarrica
#21 - 2013-03-06 15:22:48 UTC
Destroyers are very dangerous and you underestimate them at your own risk. Most ships though have hard counters and it comes down to a ship to ship basis.

AC Thrashers are laughably easy to counter. I kill them in Tristans, Tormentors, and Firetails, much less AF.
Ginger Barbarella
#22 - 2013-03-06 19:49:15 UTC
Thrasher is still my favorite. Honestly don't really fly AF's anymore.

"Blow it all on Quafe and strippers." --- Sorlac

Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#23 - 2013-03-06 21:25:04 UTC
Zarnak Wulf wrote:
Destroyers are very dangerous and you underestimate them at your own risk. Most ships though have hard counters and it comes down to a ship to ship basis.

AC Thrashers are laughably easy to counter. I kill them in Tristans, Tormentors, and Firetails, much less AF.


Tristans maybe but tormentors? Would have to be a pretty ****** thrasher.. Unless you're talking a mwd kiting tormentor.. which is also pretty meh

BYDI recruitment closed-ish

Zarnak Wulf
Amarrian Vengeance
Team Amarrica
#24 - 2013-03-06 22:22:39 UTC
Garviel Tarrant wrote:
Zarnak Wulf wrote:
Destroyers are very dangerous and you underestimate them at your own risk. Most ships though have hard counters and it comes down to a ship to ship basis.

AC Thrashers are laughably easy to counter. I kill them in Tristans, Tormentors, and Firetails, much less AF.


Tristans maybe but tormentors? Would have to be a pretty ****** thrasher.. Unless you're talking a mwd kiting tormentor.. which is also pretty meh


High:
Small focused pulse lasers II x 3
Med:
AB II
Scram
Web
Low:
DC II
ANP II
200 rolled tungsten
SAR II
Rigs:
Energy Burst
Armor Auxilliary Nano x 2

Hobgoblins II x 2

Hold at 7.5km. Slap silly. The Tormentor is a superb scram range Kiter for plex warfare. I also can't remember the last time I saw an AC Thrasher actually load Barrage. It's almost always short range faction or lolHail.
sabre906
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#25 - 2013-03-06 22:31:50 UTC
Zarnak Wulf wrote:
Garviel Tarrant wrote:
Zarnak Wulf wrote:
Destroyers are very dangerous and you underestimate them at your own risk. Most ships though have hard counters and it comes down to a ship to ship basis.

AC Thrashers are laughably easy to counter. I kill them in Tristans, Tormentors, and Firetails, much less AF.


Tristans maybe but tormentors? Would have to be a pretty ****** thrasher.. Unless you're talking a mwd kiting tormentor.. which is also pretty meh


High:
Small focused pulse lasers II x 3
Med:
AB II
Scram
Web
Low:
DC II
ANP II
200 rolled tungsten
SAR II
Rigs:
Energy Burst
Armor Auxilliary Nano x 2

Hobgoblins II x 2

Hold at 7.5km. Slap silly. The Tormentor is a superb scram range Kiter for plex warfare. I also can't remember the last time I saw an AC Thrasher actually load Barrage. It's almost always short range faction or lolHail.


The noobs you meet fail. We need more manliness in your neighborhood, more paper arty thrashers.
Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#26 - 2013-03-06 22:54:27 UTC
Zarnak Wulf wrote:
Garviel Tarrant wrote:
Zarnak Wulf wrote:
Destroyers are very dangerous and you underestimate them at your own risk. Most ships though have hard counters and it comes down to a ship to ship basis.

AC Thrashers are laughably easy to counter. I kill them in Tristans, Tormentors, and Firetails, much less AF.


Tristans maybe but tormentors? Would have to be a pretty ****** thrasher.. Unless you're talking a mwd kiting tormentor.. which is also pretty meh


High:
Small focused pulse lasers II x 3
Med:
AB II
Scram
Web
Low:
DC II
ANP II
200 rolled tungsten
SAR II
Rigs:
Energy Burst
Armor Auxilliary Nano x 2

Hobgoblins II x 2

Hold at 7.5km. Slap silly. The Tormentor is a superb scram range Kiter for plex warfare. I also can't remember the last time I saw an AC Thrasher actually load Barrage. It's almost always short range faction or lolHail.



Even with short range ammo a thrasher should thrash you... You must be fighting fail ones tbh..

BYDI recruitment closed-ish

Zarnak Wulf
Amarrian Vengeance
Team Amarrica
#27 - 2013-03-06 23:28:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Zarnak Wulf
Nah. I just pad my own pod to give me some breathing room.

Surgical Strike 905
Small Energy Turret 605
Motion Prediction 705

I get - off the top of my head - 170 DPS with Scorch. 200 DPS with IMF. 220 DPS with Conflag. It's still painfully close. I think I beat one Thrasher with 12% structure left. But it's a great way to get a fight in a ship most peeps laugh at.

It's rather moot though. I haven't flown a Tormentor in a few weeks. I've been having fun with some newly declared, "it's crap" ship types.

Rifter:
High:
200mm II x 3
Rocket Launcher II
Mid:
AB II
Fleeting Propulsion Inhibitor
Faint Epsilon Warp Scrambler
Low:
Internal Force Field Array
EANM II
Small Ancillary Armor Repairer
Rigs:
Small Projectile Burst
Small Armor Auxiliary Nano Pump x 2

20m isk Rifter. Shocked But it kills ALOT of ships that rush in thinking it's an easy kill. The Republic Fleet Firetail I have a similar fit for. It is dual web fit and has an armor explosive rig rather then a second nano pump. I've killed two AC Thrashers in the Firetail by orbiting at 6500m - outside of neut range - with Barrage. It isn't even close. The SAAR is a game changer. I'll probably be slapping it onto my tormentors in the future too. And 12% structure fights there will be a thing of the past too. Cool
Kahega Amielden
Rifterlings
#28 - 2013-03-06 23:55:00 UTC
Quote:
Hold at 7.5km. Slap silly. The Tormentor is a superb scram range Kiter for plex warfare. I also can't remember the last time I saw an AC Thrasher actually load Barrage. It's almost always short range faction or lolHail.


So your argument against AC thrashers is that the people who fly them are bad?
Bouh Revetoile
In Wreck we thrust
#29 - 2013-03-07 00:14:57 UTC
taking 10 second to swap ammo may not be advised or even useful.
Christine Peeveepeeski
Low Sec Concepts
#30 - 2013-03-07 00:55:17 UTC
I'm sorry but anyone flying an AC thrasher that doesn't have a TE is asking to get kited by.... well everything.

My thrasher is a simple beast.

[Forceful entry]
Gyrostabilizer II
Tracking Enhancer II

Medium Shield Extender II
Limited 1MN Microwarpdrive I
J5b Phased Prototype Warp Scrambler I

200mm AutoCannon II,Republic Fleet Phased Plasma S
200mm AutoCannon II,Republic Fleet Phased Plasma S
200mm AutoCannon II,Republic Fleet Phased Plasma S
200mm AutoCannon II,Republic Fleet Phased Plasma S
200mm AutoCannon II,Republic Fleet Phased Plasma S
200mm AutoCannon II,Republic Fleet Phased Plasma S
200mm AutoCannon II,Republic Fleet Phased Plasma S
5W Infectious Power System Malfunction

Small Core Defense Field Extender I
Small Core Defense Field Extender I
Small Core Defense Field Extender I

I've flown it exactly like this since I undocked for pvp in december 2010. Much like anything its not perfect but its as flexible as I can make an AC thrasher and I've won fights I really shouldn't have in it simply because I can hit my target where a DC2 thrasher or twin gyro thrasher would not be able too.





Alara IonStorm
#31 - 2013-03-07 01:07:04 UTC
Christine Peeveepeeski wrote:

My thrasher is a simple beast.

[Forceful entry]
Gyrostabilizer II
Tracking Enhancer II

Medium Shield Extender II
Limited 1MN Microwarpdrive I
J5b Phased Prototype Warp Scrambler I

200mm AutoCannon II,Republic Fleet Phased Plasma S
200mm AutoCannon II,Republic Fleet Phased Plasma S
200mm AutoCannon II,Republic Fleet Phased Plasma S
200mm AutoCannon II,Republic Fleet Phased Plasma S
200mm AutoCannon II,Republic Fleet Phased Plasma S
200mm AutoCannon II,Republic Fleet Phased Plasma S
200mm AutoCannon II,Republic Fleet Phased Plasma S
5W Infectious Power System Malfunction

Small Core Defense Field Extender I
Small Core Defense Field Extender I
Small Core Defense Field Extender I

Another way you could do this is by replacing the Gyro with a DCU and the CDFE's with a RoF and Dmg Rig.

You save 3 mil keep pretty much the exact same Tank and DPS and have a smaller Sig.
Kahega Amielden
Rifterlings
#32 - 2013-03-07 01:56:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Kahega Amielden
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
taking 10 second to swap ammo may not be advised or even useful.


If you're fighting a Tristan or Tormentor you should have barrage loaded before the fight even starts. Even still, at ~8km there's enough of a damage difference that it's worth it unless the target is papertanked and is going to die immediately anyway.
Getsafe Aisak
Doomheim
#33 - 2013-03-07 07:26:00 UTC
In EVE, always bet on stupid.

The regular shield AC Thrasher (DC + gyro lows) kills at least all Gallente and Minmatar AFs. You will end the fight at about 50-60 % hull remaining. The brawling Tormentor posted earlier will get spanked hard.

Also, most warps take more than 10 seconds so there's no excuse for not having the right ammo loaded.
Caitlyn Tufy
Perkone
Caldari State
#34 - 2013-03-07 07:28:26 UTC
Ginger Barbarella wrote:
Thrasher is still my favorite. Honestly don't really fly AF's anymore.


Quite the opposite here - except for Corax, I pretty much don't fly destroyers anymore, but I will never, ever part from my beloved Blarpy and Hawk.
Zarnak Wulf
Amarrian Vengeance
Team Amarrica
#35 - 2013-03-07 07:59:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Zarnak Wulf
Getsafe Aisak wrote:
In EVE, always bet on stupid.

The regular shield AC Thrasher (DC + gyro lows) kills at least all Gallente and Minmatar AFs. You will end the fight at about 50-60 % hull remaining. The brawling Tormentor posted earlier will get spanked hard.

Also, most warps take more than 10 seconds so there's no excuse for not having the right ammo loaded.


Tormentor

Tristan - he and I were 1v1 - look at damage

Ishkur that can't win , And again

Tormentor sucking again , Tristan Sucking

Wolf doing it wrong

RFF Failing against Thrasher

The AC Thrasher is garbage. Anyone with any kind of experience knows how to AND will counter it.
Froggy Storm
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#36 - 2013-03-07 08:40:52 UTC
As with so many of these discussions, I have to agree to bet on stupid. The frustrated noob faction warriors who rush into dessy hull thinking it will save them vs the career frig pilot is always going to end the same way. Heck given the way TD is right now I would almost bet on an Ibis over the poorly fit AC thrasher. Almost but not quite of course.

But the fact remains that the skills being equal then the ships are only relevant in so much as if they are matched to face each other or one will bug out. If we assume both pilots are competent and facing a coin flip fight then it is just that, a coin flip. Otherwise, the competent pilot who knows he is beat warps to safes as soon as the other hits D-scan and no fight ensues.
Getsafe Aisak
Doomheim
#37 - 2013-03-07 08:46:47 UTC
Zarnak Wulf wrote:

The AC Thrasher is garbage. Anyone with any kind of experience knows how to AND will counter it.


Not to devalue the kills but there's some pretty glaring SP differences, failfits, wrong ammo etc. in those and I assume full lowsec/FW faggotry on your behalf, too?

I agree, however. AC thrasher has its counters and won't win every fight. Still, it's a solid fit in both shield and armor configuration and able to compete with AFs. This much I can say from my own personal experience. To say the AC Thrasher is 'garbage' is just pure ignorance or trolling.
Christine Peeveepeeski
Low Sec Concepts
#38 - 2013-03-07 09:06:19 UTC
Zarnak Wulf wrote:


The AC Thrasher is garbage. Anyone with any kind of experience knows how to AND will counter it.


This sentiment is now why most people stick around when I warp in and I LOVE IT.

Zarnak, I love the things you do and clearly you know what you are talking about but on this occasion you are mistaken. It's definitely not garbage.

It's as subtle as a hammer but I'll happily warp into a small with my AC thrasher and take on most things I find. The ship is not what it used to be, with the rebuild of the whole t1 line-up of frigates there are a lot more ships out there that can mess an AC thrasher up but it's not garbage. I'd call it balanced.

The problem with it is most people that fly it are really lazy, they do not think about the engagement. They literally burn straight at target, press scram and f1 and see what happens.

I had a longer post explaining my thoughts but actually I can sum it up as follows.

A person that has thought about their ship and the ensuing engagement will probably win. Most AC thrasher pilots do not think, it's just a gank boat to them and that's why when you turn up knowing you need to get the engagement range right in a ship you know very well you'll burn your target. I rely on people thinking this, they stick around. Obviously I won't warp in to an obvious kiting ship at a plex but I'll happily take on most brawlers and see what happens.

I hope that makes sense Ugh




Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#39 - 2013-03-07 10:23:45 UTC
Well i could link you a mail where a solo slasher killed a combat Loki


Does not mean that its a likely outcome. I maintain that a proper thrasher kills a tormentor 98/100 in a 1v1 no matter what ammo it has loaded.


Unless MAYBE you're using slaves, that might be enough to tilt odds your way.

BYDI recruitment closed-ish

Karig'Ano Keikira
Tax Cheaters
#40 - 2013-03-07 11:56:58 UTC
Cheers to everyone for helpful input,

Few more questions:
- AB vs MWD for hawk / harpy - personally I always have trouble deciding MWS vs AB; I generally fit frigs with AB, but not sure it is great idea for AFs
- destroyer fittings: doesn't destroyer without at least some buffer (MSE) get shredded by any AF (or buffered frig for that matter)? Unless it kites that it, but kiting MWD AF or frig won't really work
- also I wonder about typical small FW plex setups - as far as I have seen so far, small dessy fleets seem popular, but I don't remember seeing (a lot of) AFs, don't really understand why
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