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Assault ships vs destroyers
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Karig'Ano Keikira
Tax Cheaters
#1 - 2013-03-05 12:08:50 UTC
As topic says, anyone got experiences with assault ships vs destroyers?
I am particularly interested in hawk and harpy vs common destroyer platforms (thresher and talwar seem especially popular these days).
Belthazor4011
Battle BV Redux
#2 - 2013-03-05 12:22:31 UTC
A well fitted Destroyer should still win, but as with everything in EVE its a matter of random luck and fits.

Are you faster than the other guy, do you have enough DPS to break the active tank of the Assault Ship (active tanking a Dessie is less likely)

Hawk can tank like crazy and therefore survive the DPS of most Dessies. But does little DPS itself you you'll be there awhile.

Harpy can do great DPS if it gets tackle and gets close.

Trasher has the nice mix of speed, dps and tank so its annoying in almost all cases. Talwar does little DPS but catching it first can be a pain.

Etc etc etc.

EVE is a gamble, there are no perfect setups or unbeatable ships. And the ones that come close are not in these hull sizes.
sabre906
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#3 - 2013-03-05 12:22:40 UTC  |  Edited by: sabre906
Tank vs gank. Real men fly dessies. Fit a paper arty thrasher and undock.Big smile
Mike Whiite
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#4 - 2013-03-05 13:13:54 UTC
as with most things in EVE much depends on the circomstances.

Though in the end of the day id'put my money on a Hawk. (though that might also have something to do with the flight hours I've in that ship.)
Meditril
Lummerland GmbH
#5 - 2013-03-05 13:57:38 UTC
The trick with Assault Ships against Dessies is to bring the right Assault Frigate against the right Dessy. For example: The Jaguar/Wolf is the natural enemy with high survival chances against the Coercer, since it has optimal resists against its weapon type. However, against a Thresher the situation is completely different (especially if you go close and it is an AC Thresher).
Uppsy Daisy
Perkone
Caldari State
#6 - 2013-03-05 16:45:22 UTC
Karig'Ano Keikira wrote:
thresher


Belthazor4011 wrote:
Trasher


Meditril wrote:
Thresher


Shocked
Karig'Ano Keikira
Tax Cheaters
#7 - 2013-03-05 16:47:42 UTC
I have been doing EFT warrioring for a while and came to following conclusions:
- assault frigs should have mobility and agility advantage over dessy, though it doesn't seem nearly as large as I thought it would be :( , so ideally they should
- dps seems similar, hawk seems slightly behind here
- EHP wise they are also similar, destroyers seem slightly ahead
- combat range and damage application is where it gets tricky - AF should be able to apply damage on dessy much better then other way around, especially if AF is fitted with tracking disruptor, but it is not nearly as good as initially taught - according to dps charts, it seems that best bet against thrasher is tracking disruptor scripted for optimal range reduction and fighting in Null range with harpy / at edge of combat range for hawk

Problem I have is total lack of experience with destroyers - how does one fit those things anyway? :)
Jon Joringer
The Third Foundation
Commonwealth Vanguard
#8 - 2013-03-05 16:53:07 UTC
In my experiences, a well flown AF stands a good chance in the right circumstances. But the destroyer still has the upper hand most of the time (AF pilots don't seem to know this though..).
Kodama Ikari
Thragon
#9 - 2013-03-05 17:42:50 UTC
Karig'Ano Keikira wrote:

- combat range and damage application is where it gets tricky - AF should be able to apply damage on dessy much better then other way around, especially if AF is fitted with tracking disruptor, but it is not nearly as good as initially taught - according to dps charts, it seems that best bet against thrasher is tracking disruptor scripted for optimal range reduction and fighting in Null range with harpy / at edge of combat range for hawk



Destroyers use light guns/missiles, assault frigs are slow frigs. Destroyers designed to do full damage to frigates even when outside ideal tracking/range circumstances. AF will be able to mitigate very little damage unless it is kiting a shortrange destroyer (close orbit on an arty thrasher probably works too if you don't die first). Generally in a fight, if they're within range, they're doing tons of damage to each other. If one of the slower, brawlier AFs such as a blaster enyo grabs a destroyer right as the fight starts, i have a very hard time believing that destroyer will be alive at the end, unless its a straight gank/spank 300dps thrasher. Like most engagements, it boils down to a few things.

shortrange/longrange vs engagement starting distance
success in kiting/catching
racial resistances.

Some first-hand PI tips
Goldensaver
Maraque Enterprises
Just let it happen
#10 - 2013-03-05 17:44:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Goldensaver
Uppsy Daisy wrote:


Shocked


Thresher Maws man, they got everybody up in here all panicky and ****.

OT:
Depends on the Scenario. My Coercer will murder any close range AB AF by burning around it at ~18 KM blasting away with Scorch, but a long range one might (or perhaps will) have the tank to survive it and will deal enough to break its token tank (DCU).
But a Thrasher will do nasty things depending on the fit. Fought an Arty Thrasher in my Hawk. He kited me, and after enough time ran me out of charges and killed me off. After that day I started bringing more charges...

But some Dessies will win close up against some AFs.

And though I'm not sure, I think a Vengeance will win every time if you let it get in range. Just don't let it get there.

Oh, and watch out for the Talwar. If kite fit with a TD almost any turret AF will lose, almost all the time.

Edit: think this sums it up as best as you can:
Kodama Ikari wrote:



Destroyers use light guns/missiles, assault frigs are slow frigs. Destroyers designed to do full damage to frigates even when outside ideal tracking/range circumstances. AF will be able to mitigate very little damage unless it is kiting a shortrange destroyer (close orbit on an arty thrasher probably works too if you don't die first). Generally in a fight, if they're within range, they're doing tons of damage to each other. If one of the slower, brawlier AFs such as a blaster enyo grabs a destroyer right as the fight starts, i have a very hard time believing that destroyer will be alive at the end, unless its a straight gank/spank 300dps thrasher. Like most engagements, it boils down to a few things.

shortrange/longrange vs engagement starting distance
success in kiting/catching
racial resistances.

This is about it.

Also, typically Dessies will lose out to AFs in tank. Dessies will win in DPS though (in most cases).
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Top Belt for Fun
#11 - 2013-03-05 18:00:24 UTC
I'd be highly confident taking on any destroyer in a Harpy or Hawk, except possibly the Coercer (EM damage) or Dragoon (neuts).

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Inquisitor Jurado
Echo Heavy Industries
#12 - 2013-03-06 00:22:27 UTC
Hawk with dual MASB'S... THE HORROR!
Alara IonStorm
#13 - 2013-03-06 00:25:02 UTC
Meditril wrote:
However, against a Thresher the situation is completely different (especially if you go close and it is an AC Thresher).

You really don't want to be piloting a wheat field when one of these bad boys drops out of warp.
Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#14 - 2013-03-06 00:39:20 UTC
Vengeance über alles.

BYDI recruitment closed-ish

Jasmine Shepard
Relentless Destruction
Immediate Destruction
#15 - 2013-03-06 02:33:41 UTC
I think AF edges out ahead against a Dessie but barely if they are similarly skilled. Dessie is more cost efficient and their huge dps and tracking/range give them a ton of versatility. I think a dual webbed hawk could probably easily conquer most Dessie's although its run into trouble against the amarr line. Also just a straight up tank/Gank fitted AF will beat most Dessie's as well.
Hannott Thanos
Notorious Legion
SCRUBS.
#16 - 2013-03-06 09:48:04 UTC
Garviel Tarrant wrote:
Vengeance über alles.

Oh so you got Warrior II's? Please send them in my 630 dps tanks general direction.

while (CurrentSelectedTarget.Status == ShipStatus.Alive) {

     _myShip.FireAllGuns(CurrentSelectedTarget);

}
Otrebla Utrigas
Iberians
#17 - 2013-03-06 11:51:11 UTC
Inquisitor Jurado wrote:
Hawk with dual MASB'S... THE HORROR!


You will never get in range to a kitting destroyer.

Dual prop Hawk with a single MASB can, and will, destroy almost any dessie in the game. With a single MASB you can repair your shields almost twice from zero, while most destroyers have paper tank. Good approach trajectory keeping transversal up, until you get to overheat web range, then scram and then switch to AB. Start shooting when you get web on and orbit close if the dessie is long range, or far if it is short range.

Also Rockets apply nearly 200 dps up to 12 km, and with scram and web, the dessie will be a sitting duck, allowing you to use even rage rockets (for 220 paper DPS, most of it applied).

What I won't never engage in a AF is a caracal or a vexor. But give me any "standard fit" destroyer and I will mop the floor with it.
Cute E
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#18 - 2013-03-06 13:39:48 UTC
MSE AC neut gank thrasher wants to have a word with any AF :)

Yes, MASB frigs can be a pain, but remember buffer. A Thrasher will volley through stuffs like there's no tomorrow and keep in mind it has selectable damage types, it's neut immune and will **** anything in scram range.
Lloyd Roses
Artificial Memories
#19 - 2013-03-06 13:52:30 UTC
Cute E wrote:
MSE AC neut gank thrasher wants to have a word with any AF :)


Short conversation, very short. Some even got two metastasis adjusters :)
Hannott Thanos
Notorious Legion
SCRUBS.
#20 - 2013-03-06 14:06:18 UTC
125mm Railgun kiting Catalyst can eat most frigs of any kind. It's also super fun to kill off ac thrasher after ac thrasher.

while (CurrentSelectedTarget.Status == ShipStatus.Alive) {

     _myShip.FireAllGuns(CurrentSelectedTarget);

}
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