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Mynnna for CSM8

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Rengerel en Distel
#61 - 2013-03-07 22:50:16 UTC
mynnna wrote:


Consider it this way. A well researched Rokh takes about 10.8m units of Trit to build. Now, an all-5s Mackinaw, supported by an all-5s orca with boosters and mindlinks and all that jazz will mine about 962k units of veld an hour; that works out to ~2.9 million units an hour. So, in about four hours, one lone miner has produced the tritanium content for a battleship.

Now think about that with PI. Is PI going to produce trit at the same rate? Many people do PI on a lazy mode schedule. Perhaps you empty your planets once every three days, or seven. So, come back three days later and you've got twenty million units of trit waiting for you.

That's what I mean by volume. To do anything with the minerals requires a higher volume of them. Now sure, you can change that...and then you're reducing the cost to build Tech I ships in turn, unless you're going to also do something (such as toy with the tax rates in this new PI) to ensure that the minerals remain valuable. But then, that brings us to another problem - namely, are there enough people doing PI to actually be able to supply the game with minerals at all? The size of the PI market is about 7T or so per month; the size of minerals, 18T or so (going by a month of Jita volume), which means the number of people doing PI would have to expand by 250%. Or perhaps people could be allowed to do both mineral lines and the existing PI lines...in which case we're increasing the value of running PI - a relatively passive activity - by 250%, on average. Do we want to do that? Given the fairly respectable income PI can already deliver, I suspect not.

Basically, think about moving minerals to sourcing via PI, and you open up an entire hornet's nest of issues. Blink

If you keep mining as is as well as add minerals to PI, however, you can increase the minerals available in those areas to allow those living in null/low/WH to produce them passively as well. Perhaps you only get 1M trit a day from PI vs what you could get from mining, but you can do that on 6 planets on 3 characters an account. So you could do 18M trit a day with one account, with most of the time spent hauling. It would also give people in those areas reasons to be in those areas, while allowing them to partake in other things at the same time.
The idea would be to increase the low ends in the areas where they're needed, while making it less effective to haul those minerals back to high sec. If people end up making more isk doing PI while being able to enjoy other parts of the game instead of mining, that's a fair trade I think.

With the increase in shiptoasting, the Report timer needs to be shortened.
mynnna
State War Academy
Caldari State
#62 - 2013-03-08 00:48:07 UTC
Million units per day is 10km3 per day, launchpads only have 10k storage space, so you're emptying your planets daily, doing 60k of hauling per day. For this extra effort, you'd make about a billion isk a month per character (1m units times 6 isk/unit times six planets times thirty days). Of course, that number assumes that trit remains that high.

By comparison, I can run P2 factory planets in null that make 15 P2s per hour, which is, given today's prices, in excess of 700m per month for six planets. For this, I reset the extractors once a day and haul around 23k m3 once a week. If Trit drops to about 4.5, this is just as good as the trit planets, for far less work.

PI wins. ;)

Ultimately, having it supplement rather than replace mining has some merit, but you'd probably want to do it in the form of ore, rather than raw minerals. And, even then, we'll have to agree to disagree, as I think I'd rather see mining improved and the local supply of low ends increased & made worth mining than I would more love to PI. Just a personal opinion, of course.

Member of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal
Amyclas Amatin
SUNDERING
Goonswarm Federation
#63 - 2013-03-08 01:13:40 UTC
mynnna wrote:
Leonardo Esil wrote:
It seems to me, that the best way to allow the taxation of miners would be to track mining volume through the API, and let alliances tax it that way. (i.e. you mined 500m of ore? hand over tax or be kicked/killed. Tax shake-downs in eve, oh baby)


The biggest problem with this approach (or so I've been told by people who know more about the API than I do) is a decidedly large lack of granularity as far as how often the asset API in particular updates. Of course, the biggest problem mechanically is that we're then required to write an application to monitor it and then follow up appropriately, something we don't have to do with any other tax or fee.

There is, as Malcanis mentioned, the notion of eliminating perfect refines in empire, thus giving station owners the room to set a slightly higher tax. This may happen anyway (see CSM7 winter summit minutes for details) but is still imperfect, as it leaves a station owner shackled to the tax rates in Empire...they can't just set what they want.

Anyway, actual fixes. Nothing I've ever seen has ever been perfect; there's always issues with it. For example, the one I keep coming back to is that the Ore Prospecting Array (or another sov upgrade) collects a tax automatically. Make up whatever lore you want to explain it; perhaps "specialized warp capable mining drones that collect the dust and other fragments blown off of asteroids as they're mined" or something (we'll just ignore that it makes no sense that more or less of this is blown off the asteroids based on who controls the space.) The ore is either routed directly to the station (for convenience of the owner) or to the OPA (which, fitting in with the concept of bottom up sovereignty I wrote about, would be a potential target for raiders, who would have extra incentive to crack it open by letting the minerals inside drop as loot.)

The issues? You have to have an OPA deployed. It's an instant teleport mechanism to safety which is itself an argument for making the ore land in the OPA instead. But then the owner is stuck with moving a bunch of extra ore to actually get the taxes, as opposed to simply receiving isk as with PI or ratting.

Another commonly suggested approach is to simply tax the miners in isk taken from their wallet as they mine, based on the estimated value of the ore (or preferably, of the minerals the ore would refine into; that would be more accurate). But that has its own set of problems.

It's a tough issue, to say the least. What?

GallowsCalibrator wrote:

Edit: The other alternative is >100% yield refines available in null, handwave it with some kind of advanced extraction and processing techniques or something, maybe have to install some relatively fragile station service to provide super-refines.

Not really a fan of this idea, either. Creating material out of thin air isn't a good thing.



Trying to tax ore at its source is as absurd as trying to tax loot, salvage or trading profits. You're trying to mess with what goes in and out of cargoholds at the mining laser level?

If you do want to shakedown your industrialists, I think API audits are the best way that player organisations can do it without affecting game-play for the rest of the community.

For more information on the New Order of High-Sec, please visit: http://www.minerbumping.com/

Remember that whenever you have a bad day in EVE, the correct reponse is "Thank you CCP, may I please have another?"
Jeremy Soikutsu
Kite Co. Space Trucking
#64 - 2013-03-08 01:50:50 UTC
mynnna wrote:
[The ore is either routed directly to the station (for convenience of the owner) or to the OPA (which, fitting in with the concept of bottom up sovereignty I wrote about, would be a potential target for raiders, who would have extra incentive to crack it open by letting the minerals inside drop as loot.)
Emphasis mine. Sure this sounds great, I mean I'd train into jump freighters just for this, but how likely do you think it would be? I mean it would require jump freighters and heavy support, for the fantastic reward of ore.

"Of course you would choose the fun, but you don't lead a relevant entity which has allies." - Colonel Xaven
mynnna
State War Academy
Caldari State
#65 - 2013-03-08 04:33:30 UTC
Less likely than I'd really like to think, unfortunately. Which is sad, because the idea of people doing hit and runs on your OPAs to steal your ore sounds, on the surface, pretty awesome. Straight

Member of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal
Leonardo Esil
Miner Pinball INC
#66 - 2013-03-08 05:57:31 UTC
mynnna wrote:
Less likely than I'd really like to think, unfortunately. Which is sad, because the idea of people doing hit and runs on your OPAs to steal your ore sounds, on the surface, pretty awesome. Straight


How about hit and runs on tech moons instead?

Pirate
mynnna
State War Academy
Caldari State
#67 - 2013-03-08 05:59:12 UTC
Could be fun, but if CCP keeps moons at all I hope they rebalance them again, and do it right this time. Blink

Member of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal
Ariadne Invictus
Brave Newbies Inc.
Brave Collective
#68 - 2013-03-08 07:14:40 UTC
I back tracked and read your article about the tritanium problem and it mirrors a lot of my own thoughts (as a high sec miner and industrialist, I might add). I find it nearly unbelievable that single most valuable in game ore right now is Scordite. The info for which describes it as one of the most common ores in the game. My question then is two fold - 1) Do you still stand by the majority of what was written in that article and 2) Short of James' suggestion of "nerf high sec into oblivion", what else can be done to make low sec more attractive to miners. Currently the thing that makes the most sense for as a ration economic operator to do is mine nothing but Scordite variants in high sec or if the market wobbles a little Pyrox. There has to be a bigger payoff for someone like me to get out into Lowsec and risk my and my corp mates ships in the name of some Jaspet.
mynnna
State War Academy
Caldari State
#69 - 2013-03-08 07:50:24 UTC
Actually it's Hedbergite, which narrowly beats our Hemorphite, then Arkonor and Jaspet. But Scordite is in a healthy fifth place... followed by two other highsec ores that beat Bistot and Crokite.

Semantics.

Anyway, yes, I still stand by pretty much everything in there.

Now, as far as making it more attractive...you're ultimately not really going to be able to do that without "nerfing" highsec. Like many (all, really) raw materials, the pricing is heavily affected by the concept of a bottleneck - relative scarcity, or limiting reagent if you happen to be a chemist. Minerals are all used together, so you can only build as much as you can with the one you have the least of, right? As a result, all the others are oversupplied, and thus less valuable than they "should" be. That's why, when CCP removed the drone alloys, low ends doubled or tripled, while high ends continued to basically stagnate (and in a different realm of materials, it's why Technetium is so valuable, a. Anything you do to fix that, whether it's increasing the supply of low ends or decreasing the supply of high ends, would result in low ends dropping in value, thus nerfing highsec.

Then again, as the current value of highsec ores is a result of CCP nuking drone alloys (which took out a much larger percentage of low end supply than it did high end supply), I dunno that I would call fixing that a nerf. I'm sure many would disagree. Blink

Anyway, ultimately, as far as null is concerned, something as simple as nerfing grav sites (they respawn very rapidly after fully mined out) might reduce high end supply enough to shift the bottleneck to them (I don't have the data to determine this, though). However, it doesn't address local low end supply, so it shouldn't surprise you that I favor the super-ore idea instead. A similar approach could be taken with respect to lowsec.

Member of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal
Indahmawar Fazmarai
#70 - 2013-03-08 07:54:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Indahmawar Fazmarai
Ariadne Invictus wrote:
I back tracked and read your article about the tritanium problem and it mirrors a lot of my own thoughts (as a high sec miner and industrialist, I might add). I find it nearly unbelievable that single most valuable in game ore right now is Scordite. The info for which describes it as one of the most common ores in the game. My question then is two fold - 1) Do you still stand by the majority of what was written in that article and 2) Short of James' suggestion of "nerf high sec into oblivion", what else can be done to make low sec more attractive to miners. Currently the thing that makes the most sense for as a ration economic operator to do is mine nothing but Scordite variants in high sec or if the market wobbles a little Pyrox. There has to be a bigger payoff for someone like me to get out into Lowsec and risk my and my corp mates ships in the name of some Jaspet.


Any miner going to lowsec it's going to lose money by a good amount even if he comes back alive. Security procedures and travel will cost him more time (i.e. more revenue) than what the marginal higher ore prices will pay back.

The point is, what is the level of reward in lowsec ores that would guarantee a sensible profit related to the operational costs inflicted by risk? I recall reading somebody's account on his corporation's lowsec mining and it was a massive enterprise, a logistic nightmare and all in all it was not fun to accomplish. I mean, they were hauling in freighters from lowsec just to hit the profit edge...

What's wrong with lowsec, and has been wrong for long, is the risk part, not the reward. Lowsec ores ARE better than hisec's, but they can't pay back the risk of obtaining them. Thus we should just assume that lowsec is fine as it is and doesn't needs any fix, because the only way to fix lowsec is to nerf risk and i think we all agree that nerfing risk is anti-EVE.
Ariadne Invictus
Brave Newbies Inc.
Brave Collective
#71 - 2013-03-08 08:31:59 UTC
mynnna wrote:
Now, as far as making it more attractive...you're ultimately not really going to be able to do that without "nerfing" highsec. Like many (all, really) raw materials, the pricing is heavily affected by the concept of a bottleneck - relative scarcity, or limiting reagent if you happen to be a chemist.


Not a chemist, but I did minor in Supply Chain Management, so the concept of bottle necking is one I know more about than I'd care to. Anyway, I didn't want to seem like I was opposed to highsec nefs per say, just not on the "oblivion" scale. Thank you for your reply.
Unforgiven Storm
Eternity INC.
Goonswarm Federation
#72 - 2013-03-08 10:39:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Unforgiven Storm
Hi Mynnna, do you mind I camp here for a couple of hours, my thread is very quiet, I’m all alone over there, I need some company.

Quote:
Then you're duplicating existing game play. It's actually the same problem moving moon goo to PI would have. Minerals also present a unique challenge due to their volume...


What's wrong in ending the moon mining like we know it and put all 20 moon products in a moon PI system?

If volume is a problem, we create a new raw product that needs to be refined in the poses to the original product at the same rates as before, 100 a hour or less.

We can make these new raw products as small as we want to keep the volume of the original moon products a rarity and market volumes more or less the same.

Since you still need a POS to refine it to the original moon product, the POSes will work as the bottleneck we have today instead of the moons, and with this we can keep volumes and prices of moon products more or less stable, and I think that will solve almost, if not all the moon mining problems.

1 - no more alliance direct control, moon mining will be in the hands of the players
2 - alliance income will not necessary will come down, they still control the POCOs, they can tax the products, what they lose because they will not have 100% tax of tec or neo raw they might get back with other moons raw since now they are taxing ALL moon mining in their territories
3 - POCOs are a better source for warfare than a POS is, smaller, less hit points, at easy target for any small corp or alliance to try to fight for
4 - This new moon mining system will radically change the game and moon mining balance, independent of your size, try to defend a couple hundred pocos outside your territory, 3 or 4 regions away from your capital system... see if it works like with POSes do nowadays.
5 - Also move to the other side of universe to wage war or whatever and let your pocos behind, even under OTEC protection and see what happens if nobody is living there and/or using them, tell me how that will end for an alliance that owns them but don’t use them.

Unforgiven Storm for CSM 9, 10, 11, 12 and 13. (If I don't get in in the next 5 years I will quit trying) :-)
GallowsCalibrator
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#73 - 2013-03-08 11:11:20 UTC
Just as a bit of a thought experiment on the nullsec mining thing again;

I know you mentioned you don't like the idea of creating free minerals out of nowhere, but what if a highly upgraded/high industrial index system also released small amounts of drone compounds from asteroid refines? (For instance, a single Condensed Alloy per Veldspar refine, 2-3 Dark Compound from Spodumain, etc) - with the additional caveat that compressed versions of ores do not release these compounds? This should help incentivise local refines due to the additional material yield, and help to address mineral supply imbalances by essentially faking super veld that can only be refined in nullsec (Add a couple of Plush Compound to Crokite - It's now pushing a lot more veld, nullsec only!).

Never know, someone might even try to set up a refining outpost or system near a empire/null border and try to encourage people to ship resources there to refine for the additional profit margin?
mynnna
State War Academy
Caldari State
#74 - 2013-03-09 00:17:20 UTC  |  Edited by: mynnna
Unforgiven Storm wrote:
Moon-PI words


There's nothing strictly wrong with the idea of "Moon Interaction", except for the problem you quoted and the other concerns I mentioned ("having enough people actually doing PI" and/or "making PI too valuable"). My feeling is that while it would work, it'd be more of a bandaid solution.

e: I should point out that I'm not shooting down the idea entirely, just pointing out potential issues with it. That's what we're supposed to do on the CSM right? Blink

GallowsCalibrator wrote:
Just as a bit of a thought experiment on the nullsec mining thing again;

I know you mentioned you don't like the idea of creating free minerals out of nowhere, but what if a highly upgraded/high industrial index system also released small amounts of drone compounds from asteroid refines? (For instance, a single Condensed Alloy per Veldspar refine, 2-3 Dark Compound from Spodumain, etc) - with the additional caveat that compressed versions of ores do not release these compounds? This should help incentivise local refines due to the additional material yield, and help to address mineral supply imbalances by essentially faking super veld that can only be refined in nullsec (Add a couple of Plush Compound to Crokite - It's now pushing a lot more veld, nullsec only!).

Never know, someone might even try to set up a refining outpost or system near a empire/null border and try to encourage people to ship resources there to refine for the additional profit margin?


It's a twist, but it's still free minerals at the end of the day. Ugh

Member of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal
Powers Sa
#75 - 2013-03-13 00:27:38 UTC
Mynnna how will you work with CCP Fozzie to bring more attention to getting me some better covert hotdrop logi that isn't as baller as those tourney ships but still owns. Covert Logi T3's are gimped as hell.

Do you like winning t2 frigs and dictors for Dirt Cheap?https://eveninggames.net/register/ref/dQddmNgyLhFBqNJk

Remeber: Gambling addiction is no laughing matter unless you've lost a vast space fortune on the internet.
Trebor Daehdoow
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#76 - 2013-03-13 00:52:32 UTC
Powers Sa wrote:
Mynnna how will you work with CCP Fozzie to bring more attention to getting me some better covert hotdrop logi that isn't as baller as those tourney ships but still owns. Covert Logi T3's are gimped as hell.

Add me to the list of people who want this. If there's one ship in EVE that I lust after, it's the Etana.

Private Citizen • CSM in recovery
mynnna
State War Academy
Caldari State
#77 - 2013-03-13 03:50:54 UTC
I do seem to recall how CCP had talked about more plans for subsystems, and Tech 3 is supposed to be the king of, eh....combining odd things, is the best way to put it.

So basically I'll go, "Hey Fozzie, myself as well as all your old pals in PL who are now flying blops BS want better covert logis that can drop with them, so make a cool new offensive subsystem" and because he's got old pals in PL who would want it, he'd do it.


That's how the CSM works, right? Blink

Member of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal
Bi-Mi Lansatha
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#78 - 2013-03-13 15:09:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Bi-Mi Lansatha
mynnna wrote:
You're saying, in other words, that highsec should be something other than totally safe, boring and low level? Yes, I agree. Go read Malcanis' old manifesto. The underlying concept is to make highest something other than totally safe, boring ...
Odd, Malcanis states that most players are in Highsec... sound like for most people Lowsec and 0.0 are boring and suck.

How do plan on fixing 0.0?

Note: Malcanis has suggest buffing 0.0 industry would help. That sounds like a logical first step.
Bi-Mi Lansatha
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#79 - 2013-03-13 15:13:23 UTC
Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote:
...What's wrong with lowsec, and has been wrong for long, is the risk part, not the reward...
Correct.
Stags Leap
The Night Watchmen
Goonswarm Federation
#80 - 2013-03-13 15:35:11 UTC
I'm impressed by thoughtful, considered communication.