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Push Industries - March 2013 Service Changes
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Bad Bobby
Bring Me Sunshine
In Tea We Trust
#21 - 2013-03-05 10:09:01 UTC
I'd just like to drop my 2 cents in here.

Firstly, I have used PUSH and I have used Red, Blue and Black Frog for courier jobs in the past.

I have not used PUSH for a long time simply because I was under the impression they had closed down, apparently I was wrong and PUSH had simply dropped off of my radar. When I did use them I was happy with their service.

I continue to use Red, Blue and Black Frog for courier jobs that are of high value (Blue Frog), go out of hi-sec (Black Frog) or go to out of the way areas of hi-sec (Red Frog) and I am happy with their service. I would not use any of the Frogs for everyday courier jobs near hub systems simply because I will end up paying more and waiting longer than if I put up a public courier contract. For me, the value of the Frogs is that they will reliably carry out couriers within a reasonable time frame and at a reasonable price that would otherwise languish if placed publicly. But public couriers, when used correctly, will get many jobs done quicker and at a lower price.

I think it's good that there is some competition in the area of managed freight, but I would also say that maybe PUSH should look towards filling the holes in the Frog's offering rather than competing in the areas where the Frogs already dominate. The majority of my courier contracts fit into those holes and that money is not going to either PUSH or the Frogs right now. Sometimes I even resort to shipping things myself simply because no courier service offers the terms needed for the shipment I have to make.

Mu-Shi Ai wrote:
Collateral only helps me not lose the value of the cargo, and of course I use it on every courier contract I make. But If I need goods delivered promptly and they get destroyed/stolen in a freighter gank, that time wasted is itself an inconvenience, one that loses me time, and perhaps even money if I was having the goods transported to take advantage of a limited opportunity for profit.

You are undervaluing your shipment, old chum. You should always value a shipment at what it would be worth delivered to your destination and put to good use there, not at what it is worth at the point of departure. If you lose a shipment en-route then you need to be able to cover the entire loss with the collateral. The lost time, the lost profit, the cost of replacement and the cost of re-shipping (if needed) should all be included in your collateral. If having a shipment destroyed en-route makes you sad, you have not placed a high enough collateral. I celebrate every gank that takes down one of my shipments (and my wallet does too).
Mu-Shi Ai
Hosono House
#22 - 2013-03-05 13:38:20 UTC
Bad Bobby wrote:
You are undervaluing your shipment, old chum. You should always value a shipment at what it would be worth delivered to your destination and put to good use there, not at what it is worth at the point of departure. If you lose a shipment en-route then you need to be able to cover the entire loss with the collateral. The lost time, the lost profit, the cost of replacement and the cost of re-shipping (if needed) should all be included in your collateral. If having a shipment destroyed en-route makes you sad, you have not placed a high enough collateral. I celebrate every gank that takes down one of my shipments (and my wallet does too).


When 1 billion is your basic limit (unless you use Blue/Black Frog), that can be kind of difficult without making several contracts. I'd rather be able to trust that my stuff will get there reliably and set collateral at shipped value, than use a less reliable service and assume I'll be facing a loss. That's not a tradeoff to which I'm blind. It's one that I consciously have made.
Bad Bobby
Bring Me Sunshine
In Tea We Trust
#23 - 2013-03-05 14:00:26 UTC
Mu-Shi Ai wrote:
Bad Bobby wrote:
You are undervaluing your shipment, old chum. You should always value a shipment at what it would be worth delivered to your destination and put to good use there, not at what it is worth at the point of departure. If you lose a shipment en-route then you need to be able to cover the entire loss with the collateral. The lost time, the lost profit, the cost of replacement and the cost of re-shipping (if needed) should all be included in your collateral. If having a shipment destroyed en-route makes you sad, you have not placed a high enough collateral. I celebrate every gank that takes down one of my shipments (and my wallet does too).


When 1 billion is your basic limit (unless you use Blue/Black Frog), that can be kind of difficult without making several contracts. I'd rather be able to trust that my stuff will get there reliably and set collateral at shipped value, than use a less reliable service and assume I'll be facing a loss. That's not a tradeoff to which I'm blind. It's one that I consciously have made.

1B collateral may be the maximum for Red Frog, but it is not anywhere near the collateral cap that many (if not most) other couriers will happily handle. I regularly send out 2B-3B collateral public contracts. If you are uncomfortable with public couriers (and really, for most cases public couriers are excellent) then you can use Blue Frog. I certainly use Blue Frog for high value shipments that are going to out of the way destinations or that need that extra "guarantee" of timely delivery.

In fairness, I probably use courier contracts more than most people and therefore have had the time, opportunity and motivation to perform a thorough analysis of the relative cost and performance of all the available options. I can understand why other people just go with the name they know and trust.
Syds Sinclair
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#24 - 2013-03-05 17:14:07 UTC
..I'll chime in here. I've used RFF in the past, but never use them now. I've never used PUSH, and don't see myself using them in the future.

I use the Hauler's Channel and public contracts.

If I'd like a shipment delivered within the hour, ill hop into the HC and ask if there are any freighter pilots free. There always are. And they are willing to deliver shipments with 3-4b collateral.

Rarely will I have to pay more then 500k/jump this way. I'll bump it up to 700k/jump if its really high collateral and I want my goods at the destination in a short ammount of time.

For things that I can wait until morning for, I make a public contract. I've had contracts get filled that were 5b+ Isk collateral with a 500k/jump reward.

And like Bobby said. If they get blown up, then I've just hit the lottery.

I really don't see why anyone would use RFF or PUSH. There are just better alternatives out there.

♠ Sinclair Consulting ♠
Molic Blackbird
Orion Faction Industries
Orion Consortium
#25 - 2013-03-05 18:47:21 UTC
Syds Sinclair wrote:

I really don't see why anyone would use RFF or PUSH. There are just better alternatives out there.


I am a heavy user of RFF. I've used public courier contracts in the past and found them much more of a hassle then using RFF. With public contracts inevitably someone will accept a contract they don't have a ship with enough cargo space to fit the package in. I end up having to go through a whole lot of extra effort to help them haul it. Sure, I could just take the collateral and move on, but that's not they way I operate. I'm not going to punish someone for a simple mistake.

With RFF, I don't have to worry about anything. I set up a contract and wait for it to be competed. I don't have to arrange anything in advance. If someone accepts a contract they can not haul, it gets handled within the RFF corp. I use RFF because it is as hassle free as I can possibly get. While I haven't used Push all that much, I assume the same would apply to them.
Syds Sinclair
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#26 - 2013-03-05 23:45:24 UTC
..Good points Molic.

But, I feel that your points drive my assertions home. For just a little effort, you can save a lot of ISK.

That is why I don't use RFF and PUSH.

♠ Sinclair Consulting ♠
Candy Oshea
Techfree Investment Group
#27 - 2013-03-06 00:45:53 UTC
Syds Sinclair wrote:
..Good points Molic.

But, I feel that your points drive my assertions home. For just a little effort, you can save a lot of ISK.

That is why I don't use RFF and PUSH.


Only additional effort is pasting the contract into a channel Straight, as long as the isk/jump is there, its scooped up momentarily.

Solid argument from Syds why public contracts (haulers channel) is the goto place to ship crap around.

Although i can imagine with the numbers we have seen from Molic in the past (7500 procurers wtf) pasting 20-30 contracts in HC may take some time to chew thru, but if its done regulary ala rita jita <3, you can plan a daily time to paste (giving haulers ti8me to get there in time), again requiring some minor chatting, which seems to incur effort. Straight

Nothing stopping red frog or the other one joining said channel to see if any extra can be made on return trips etc.

Serious business this courier package stuff.

iCandy  - I have accidently swallowed some Scrabble tiles, my next shit could spell disaster!
Arronicus
State War Academy
Caldari State
#28 - 2013-03-06 10:10:42 UTC
Freighter services are so cheap, and pay so little as is, that I do often wonder how some of these freighter pilots justify say, flying a freighter from Jita to rens for 28m or whatever it is, with a 28m load back, netting 56m for a couple hours of mindless warping.

Don't get me wrong, I'm glad you guys do run these services, just confused how you can justify having such low prices.
As someone who has dealt with both Push, and Red frog, Push has been, and definitely remains cheaper, however, creating the contracts when promptness of delivery is important, I haven't found Push to be reliable in that regard. I think they need more steady pilots or something.
Locin WeEda
Red Frog Investments
#29 - 2013-03-06 13:48:45 UTC
Syds Sinclair wrote:
..I'll chime in here. I've used RFF in the past, but never use them now. I've never used PUSH, and don't see myself using them in the future.

I really don't see why anyone would use RFF or PUSH. There are just better alternatives out there.


One benefit of using PUSH or RFF over public contracts that has not been mentioned yet, is what happens to your contract if you make a mistake (for example, if you forget to set collateral or set a too low collateral). In most cases, using RFF or PUSH, you will receive your goods, either as a rejected contract or as a delivered contract.

I did a small study on our 2012 numbers: out of about 1100 contracts issued with 0 collateral, a bit over 800 got rejected, about 240 got delivered, and 10 of the contracts failed (due to contract thieves). While neither RFF nor PUSH can guarantee 100% that no pilot will ever run away with under-collateralized contracts, we can remove their access to the contracts if they do it once.

If you did a similar study on public contracts, I have a feeling that the goods would not be returned that often to the contract issuer.





[b]Red Frog Freight thread Red Frog Freight Trip calculator Red Frog Freight Service status[/b]
Syds Sinclair
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#30 - 2013-03-06 15:59:04 UTC
..That is a very good point.

♠ Sinclair Consulting ♠
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
Vote Steve Ronuken for CSM
#31 - 2013-03-06 16:20:31 UTC
Arronicus wrote:
Freighter services are so cheap, and pay so little as is, that I do often wonder how some of these freighter pilots justify say, flying a freighter from Jita to rens for 28m or whatever it is, with a 28m load back, netting 56m for a couple hours of mindless warping.

Don't get me wrong, I'm glad you guys do run these services, just confused how you can justify having such low prices.
As someone who has dealt with both Push, and Red frog, Push has been, and definitely remains cheaper, however, creating the contracts when promptness of delivery is important, I haven't found Push to be reliable in that regard. I think they need more steady pilots or something.



Probably because it pretty much /is/ mindless warping.

Not autopilot (because only idiots autopilot), but it's 'arrive in system, select the next system and hit warp'. Then leave it alone for a few minutes. repeat.

Woo! CSM XI!

Fuzzwork Enterprises

Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter
Alex Grison
Grison Universal
#32 - 2013-03-06 16:45:31 UTC
Came in expecting a midwifery service.


was disappointed.

yes
Croesus Rockefeller
Comitia Centuriata
#33 - 2013-03-06 23:05:33 UTC
Ahhh Grison, my favorite poster.

Have used Push quiet a bit in the last few weeks, good service so far, I no complain.

I will def have to check out the haulers channel in the future though !
Kane Alvo
Doomheim
#34 - 2013-03-07 01:09:19 UTC
I'll add something to the niche market point someone made earlier in this thread.

Black Frog is ******* expensive...to the point of ridiculous, in my opinion. If Push is really looking to break into a market, look into flying for faction war pilots. We're always looking for ways to get goods from hi sec into low sec. If you guys could come up with a profitable business model that beats Black Frog, you'd have a gold mine on your hands.

Caldari Militia  ☜★☞ Psychotic Monk for CSM8

Arronicus
State War Academy
Caldari State
#35 - 2013-03-12 06:15:52 UTC
Kane Alvo wrote:
I'll add something to the niche market point someone made earlier in this thread.

Black Frog is ******* expensive...to the point of ridiculous, in my opinion. If Push is really looking to break into a market, look into flying for faction war pilots. We're always looking for ways to get goods from hi sec into low sec. If you guys could come up with a profitable business model that beats Black Frog, you'd have a gold mine on your hands.



Push already offers JF service, IIRC.
Kristoffon vonDrake
Forceful Resource Acquisition Inc
#36 - 2013-03-12 17:27:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Kristoffon vonDrake
Arronicus wrote:
Kane Alvo wrote:
I'll add something to the niche market point someone made earlier in this thread.

Black Frog is ******* expensive...to the point of ridiculous, in my opinion. If Push is really looking to break into a market, look into flying for faction war pilots. We're always looking for ways to get goods from hi sec into low sec. If you guys could come up with a profitable business model that beats Black Frog, you'd have a gold mine on your hands.



Push already offers JF service, IIRC.

Once upon a time I ran a low sec reaction farm and contracted out JF runs. Push was significantly cheaper than BF at that time but it seemed like they only had one or two pilots and my contracts would sit for 3 or 4 days before being even picked up so I gave up on them for good. Regarding high sec couriers I had better service from public contracts than either of Push or RF. In fact I recommend people join the "haulers channel" and post their couriers there if they value fast high sec delivery.

To the person complaining about the high cost of BF consider the ship alone costs 8B so you're floating around with 12B in places without concord to protect you and you then need to move a second account around, dodging gate camps, to light the cyno. If anything I consider what they charge cheap.
Candy Oshea
Techfree Investment Group
#37 - 2013-03-15 13:11:26 UTC
Why isn't push responding to these allegations.

iCandy  - I have accidently swallowed some Scrabble tiles, my next shit could spell disaster!
Siigari Kitawa
Operation Sleepless
#38 - 2013-03-18 01:30:20 UTC
Red Frog Rufen wrote:
Since you're opening a discussion, let me reply to some of your statement in here.

Quote:
Since then we have beaten our competitor's average delivery times


That may have been true for your first 4-5 months, but since last spring, your completion time is rather erratic.

Your stat on "completed under 12h" went from 85% to 67.5% in about 6 months, meaning that the level of service greatly dropped. Where red frog went from 60% to 75% in the same period. (approximative numbers)

Red Frog Freight queue is almost always under 12h.

Well let's take a look at our 2012 completion chart. We're going to compare known numbers for now, which you released on your 2012 sheet.

In 2012 according to your Annual Report of 2012, you completed 59.3% in under 12 hours, 81.8% in under 24 hours and 97.4% in under 48 hours.

In 2012, we completed 69% of our contracts in under 12 hours, 85% in 24 hours and 94% in 48 hours.

Let's put that side-by-side:

COMPLETED CONTRACTS:
RFF: 102,527 (highsec only)
PUSHX: 24,070 (highsec only)

12h: 59.3% RFF, 69% PUSHX
24h: 81.8% RFF, 85% PUSHX
48h: 97.4% RFF, 94% PUSHX
Beyond 48h: 2.6% RFF, 6% PUSHX

2,867 contracts in Red Frog took longer than 48 hours to complete
1,444 contracts in Push Industries took longer than 48 hours to complete

PUSHX:
FAILED CONTRACTS:
RFF: 194 (0.001892%)
PUSHX: 44 (0.001828%)

I would like to note that our ratio of completion is better than yours overall. If we're playing a numbers game, we basically complete all our contracts faster than RFF and fail just as many as you, if not LESS. Note this also includes high value contracts that include special cases above 5 billion.

Need stuff moved? Push Industries will handle it. Serving highsec, lowsec and nullsec - and we do it faster and more reliably than anyone else. Ingame channel: PUSHX
Siigari Kitawa
Operation Sleepless
#39 - 2013-03-18 01:36:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Siigari Kitawa
Red Frog Rufen wrote:


Quote:
Jump Freight has been and remains to be one of Push Industries' finest services.


You had to cancel that service for months to null, and it was really crappy for low. I sure hope you get yourself some really good JF pilot, because for a "finest services", we've seen better.


Jump freighter availability is dependent on pilots. When it is available, it is completed or not moved/accepted depending on danger, then failed and contracted back to the issuer with an apology.

Red Frog Rufen wrote:
Just to give an idea of what our competitors charge, a contract from Jita to Barleguet for a 320,000m3 contract right now would run 75,000,000 ISK. With Push Industries, the same contract (including an additional 17,500m3 of space) would only be 60,000,000 ISK. This only gets better with distance. For Jita to Naga (pretty much as far away from Jita as you can get) the price from our competitors would be 125,000,000 ISK. With Push Industries, only 60,000,000 ISK. We pride ourselves on quality of service, and we understand any lowsec system is the same as the lowsec system next door. We continue to offer service to each and every lowsec system in New Eden with no exceptions.

Yet, if you take a contract from Jita to Otou, it's only 50m isk with Black Frog. Our price are based on the number of cyno jump required. If your null pilot feel fine with a deep stain contract taking 4-5 cyno jump in and back for a mere 120m, lucky for you. Using Red Frog for the high-sec part is usually a way to save greatly on the price!

Neat. But the honest truth is you posted a location that is in the Jita area. Try somewhere like Naga (Aridia) which requires two cynos to jump. We still beat you by a hefty amount.

Red Frog Rufen wrote:
and finaly, the reason why I decided to reply :

Quote:
Push Industries, founded in 2011 aimed at being the fastest and most personable courier service in New Eden. We have battled countless threats to the courier service, namely big corporations who think complacency is the key to success.


Your model is interesting, but you're lacking some strong leadership. You went awol for how many months? In that time, Push did as I predicted, you burned a lot of your pilots, your queue went to 3 days olds for many weeks, including high-sec contracts.

Need stuff moved? Push Industries will handle it. Serving highsec, lowsec and nullsec - and we do it faster and more reliably than anyone else. Ingame channel: PUSHX
Siigari Kitawa
Operation Sleepless
#40 - 2013-03-18 01:36:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Siigari Kitawa
And you're harassing my clients.

Here's a mail that I received from a customer.

Quote:

FW: Re: Post on the forum about us.
From: Ivy Romanova
Sent: 2013.01.10 15:36
To: Siigari Kitawa

WEll thats how it went

Re: Post on the forum about us.
From: Ivy Romanova
Sent: 2013.01.10 03:23
To: Red Frog Rufen,

-Rufen Those weren't lies, but instead were word by word solid truth. 
Of course it wouldn't take more than 24 hours to complete, however , what Red Frog lacks which PUSH has is the instant response and constant update on cargo status. 
Last time I used PUSH, it did went out as I stated on my post.  Now I don't know how did it go before, but from that experience, I have a nothing but positive expereience. 

Post on the forum about us.
From: Red Frog Rufen
Sent: 2013.01.09 22:01
To: Ivy Romanova

Hi there.

Please do not spread lies about us.

Looking at your contracts history with us, there wasn't a single contract made to us that took more then 24h to complete.

Most of them were even completed in less then 12h.

On the other hand, Push is not doing so well, their queue has been well over 100h for a long time.

and i'm not sure about "GIANT" either, since they barely do 50 contracts per day, and we do more then 600.

the only thing they do better then us, is being cheap.

- rufen


Red Frog Rufen wrote:
You accused me of stealing your pilot in your review thread, yet i've never even spoked to one of your pilot before they decided to switch over. I've convoed Zack once (i'm sure you remember), since he was hanging out in our recruitment channel. It's the pilot themselves that decide to switch to the best freight corp.

Red Frog moved, in the last 2 months, more then you moved last year, and faster too. We got the data to prove it, 15 months later, you're still bragging about stats that you can't provide. And we know why: they wouldn't backup your claim for the last 6 months. The players are not dumb, even if some of your customers are claiming that they've waited days to have their contracts completed with Red Frog (which is not true), they are still coming back days after days. Our number went, since you arrived, from around 220 contracts per day to 700. you are still under 80 most of the days after 15 months.

So, complacency? Really? When the freighter ganks were going strong, what did you do? Oh right, you continued to double-wrap, and you lost many freighters that way. what did WE do, the complacency corp? We started an in-corp insurance for our pilot, so that they wouldn't lose everything if they were badlucked. We stoped double-wraping, even tho it's not the best way to do exchange contracts wrap.

So there you go. I'm glad you seem to got things back on track compared to last summer/fall, but stop with the bragging and the false facts, it's really unnecessary.

Rufen, seriously man. You saw the numbers we posted for fails, and I'm not going to dive deeper in regarding freighter ganks and what not. A fail is a fail. You can post numbers until you're blue in the face. Fact is we beat you in 2012 and we're just starting 2013. We'll see you in 2014.

And seriously. Leave my clients and corpmates alone.

Need stuff moved? Push Industries will handle it. Serving highsec, lowsec and nullsec - and we do it faster and more reliably than anyone else. Ingame channel: PUSHX
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