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Time dilation - changes
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Anthar Thebess
#1 - 2013-03-04 08:12:06 UTC
Time dilation needs a small tune up.
Currently it is already expanded to whole constellation , but still it is "buggy ".

If i understand this correctly at TD 10% things we do in area affected by TD within 10min are equal to 1 minute in normal space.

Because of this many times you have to withdrawn without achieving your objectives.
For example :
- capital fleet caught in a trap , outnumbered, and defenceless ... is in 90% being saved only because at TD 10% give enemy have enough time ( 15min+) to call for backup and cyno support ships in.

My suggestion:
If certain conditions apply :
- more than 200 players in system
- fleet engagement
System receives separate timer , that shows delay to main eve time.
This timers is used in a calculation for ships jumping in to a system - by gate or a cyno.

So after a 10minutes at TD 10% in order to jump in to the system you have to wait in a some "stasis" additional 9 minutes.
You are not stranded at the gate of TD system , but placed in a perma cloak , and waiting to your turn to join the battle.

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Sigras
Conglomo
#2 - 2013-03-04 08:42:46 UTC
First, TiDi doesnt expand to a whole constellation, it only effects the systems on the same node, and nodes are dynamic, so it could be just one system, or it could be several systems across different regions.

Secondly, what I think you're saying is that there should be some sort of wait timer to jump/cyno into a system with TiDi active; the only problem with the system you suggest is that youre assuming it takes a minute to jump between systems . . .

This is almost never the case, in the slowest of cases its like 15 seconds

The real problem is that large cap ship fleets can take hours to kill at 50% TiDi even if they arent fighting back; an extra 10 minute wait timer isnt really going to effect things too drastically, and if you make it longer than that youre just needlessly upsetting/boring people.
Anthar Thebess
#3 - 2013-03-04 09:08:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Anthar Thebess
Im not saying 10minutes - this was example. This extra timer will be adjusted by a TD factor, so after hour in TD 10% you can go to sleep , rather than jumping to this system.

http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_related&kll_id=16618941
This is one of the big battles , that we could again end in massacre of capital fleet, but when TD reached 10% DPS "died" , and 15 minutes later (TD 10%) enemy was able to mount "rescue" operation - and was dropping new ships to a battle for next hour ( at TD 10-20%).

If we would have this 15 minutes at total lag without TD - we are talking about 40-50 capital kills, but with big possibility to reaching 80.

The most annoying thing is that again the only thing preventing capital ships from being destroyed is TD.

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Sigras
Conglomo
#4 - 2013-03-04 10:34:21 UTC
so basically you want a guaranteed fight with no possibility of reinforcements . . . this doesnt sound very eve-like to me . . .

Reinforcement is a significant factor in Eve, and I understand that TiDi effectively gives the losing side more time to mount a reinforcing rescue effort, but you have an equal amount of time to call in reinforcements/assistance.

This was one of the things discussed when TiDi was first proposed, but it is still a far superior system to how it was before.

I do see what you're saying though, the game server could keep track of how far "ahead" the rest of the universe is compared with the TiDi system, and make people jumping into that system wait an equivalent amount of time relative to the TiDi system; this would be a truer simulation of time slowing down, but there are a few problems with that.

1. the way TiDi works, like i said it depends which systems are on the node that got overloaded, meaning a fight out in cloud ring could effect Dodixie, so that would make traveling around iffy
2. It would cause funny things to happen when cynos are lit.**

**Say a fight commences at exatly 00:00 Eve and is immediately thrown into 10% TiDi. At 00:30 (30 minutes later) someone inside the system lights a cyno, now as far as the game simulation is concerned only 3 minutes have passed, so the people should have clicked the jump button at 00:03 and would appear next to the cyno ship immediately, but in this case the ships would have to jump when the cyno was up, but not appear in system for the next 5 hours? at which time, the ship is probably destroyed? see the problems this causes?
forestwho
Doomheim
#5 - 2013-03-04 10:38:41 UTC
I agree with the problem. This hughly favours force projection which is currently affectly null sec sov very badly!

I expect alot of DCU'ing once this gets picked up by the more force projection users
Anthar Thebess
#6 - 2013-03-04 10:58:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Anthar Thebess
No i just want fair fight.
Now - 10 minutes in TD 10% allow you to the same like in a normal system in 1 minute without TD.
So enemy have almost 10 minutes per 1 minute in a battle to call for reinforcements.
As simple - you bait and catch enemy carriers, and TD 10% kicks in.
Normal Time / Battle Time / Comment
0 / 0 / Carrier fleet FC sends scream for help "HELP US!!! We have only twice more ships than enemy "
10 / 1 / All people receive pings, begin to log in
10-20 / 2 / People gather on titans, cynos are being moved
20-30 / 3 / Carrier orders a Cyno up on one of the carriers.
30-40 / 4 / Partial reinforcements arrive , manageable by you , but more people are on the move
Summary :
Because of the TD you have up to 5min "in the battle do do damage", while at the same time reinforcements had up to 30+ minutes to gather up.

My idea is to create separate timer that will allow for compensation of this 25 minutes for people already in the battle.

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Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#7 - 2013-03-04 18:21:24 UTC
Anthar Thebess wrote:
No i just want fair fight.
Now - 10 minutes in TD 10% allow you to the same like in a normal system in 1 minute without TD.
So enemy have almost 10 minutes per 1 minute in a battle to call for reinforcements.
As simple - you bait and catch enemy carriers, and TD 10% kicks in.
Normal Time / Battle Time / Comment
0 / 0 / Carrier fleet FC sends scream for help "HELP US!!! We have only twice more ships than enemy "
10 / 1 / All people receive pings, begin to log in
10-20 / 2 / People gather on titans, cynos are being moved
20-30 / 3 / Carrier orders a Cyno up on one of the carriers.
30-40 / 4 / Partial reinforcements arrive , manageable by you , but more people are on the move
Summary :
Because of the TD you have up to 5min "in the battle do do damage", while at the same time reinforcements had up to 30+ minutes to gather up.

My idea is to create separate timer that will allow for compensation of this 25 minutes for people already in the battle.


A few points:
1.) Both sides get equal time to call in Reinforcements.... This is fair.... You could also have pinged people to log in and join the battle, and how is it TiDi's problem that you didn't?

2.) TiDi balances the battlefield very effectively.... those in TiDi apply dps slower, but receive reps slower... those outside of TiDi also have the same "period" to get reinforcements to the field.

3.) Anytime TiDi is so harsh as to run at 10% for an extended period of time, it provides an advantage to the Coalition that can call in more numbers, and have the force projection to get people to the battlefield. That's a problem with force projection, much more-so than some problem with TiDi... If an alliance has a staging system nearby, and can organzie a counter fleet and power to the battlefield in 30-60 minutes, that's a good setup and props to that alliance. If an alliance has a staging system on the other side of the map, and can organize, bridge and cyno from basically anywhere in the universe to the battlefield within 30-60 minutes, there is a HUGE power projection issue!
Anthar Thebess
#8 - 2013-03-05 07:55:21 UTC
No you are wrong.
Reinforcements , are part of eve, but as the TD was introduced - this is nonsense.
Check previous link, without TD you would see there a capital slaughter.
- You have commit 350 man fleet ( capita;/subcapital).
- Prepared a trap
- caught in it 80 enemy sub capitals
- make them defences
- begin to kill them

... and the only reason they didn't all die is the TD.

You say call more people? Why?
To be outbloobed?
We win all battles where TD not reach 50% - after it enemy is able to pull additional forces from all the eve to "save the day".

When CCP introduced TD, and it is broken , we don't have true "committing capitals to the fight".
Now just send small group - if enemy will fight you can still call for backup " OUR CAPITALS ARE DYING!!!".
Of course you will have also there the big WHORING club.
PL and NC.


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Sigras
Conglomo
#9 - 2013-03-05 08:32:10 UTC
You're making two rather large assumptions that im dubious of:

1. you're operating under the assumption that they couldnt have pulled together a fleet to safe their dying caps if not for TiDi
2. You believe they still would have recklessly charged in a massive cap fleet knowing that they couldnt have pulled together a rescue fleet if they got ambushed.

Either of these assumptions are doubtful; both together are ridiculous.

The game is always going to have meta considerations; its just the nature of the game; the key is working around them correctly and knowing their bounds.

as was mentioned before; you also had/have the option to call in reinforcements, but you choose not to. I will point out that this is YOUR fault because YOU choose not to take the option that was given to YOU.
Anthar Thebess
#10 - 2013-03-05 14:39:41 UTC
Check the link to this battle ;)
You will understand why - as simple as it is - TDI allows to call support from every possible direction , and call the whoring club.

Remember that in eve spies are everywhere - believe me - only TD saved those capitals.
So the question is :
- is the TD designed for this?

It was meant to help fight the lag during big battles - and the "next unsupported ccp feature" is the "Bloob , bloob , bloob is grown, every f*** minute"

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