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PvP Arena maybe?
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Sarah Schneider
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#121 - 2013-03-06 22:56:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Sarah Schneider
Bud Austrene wrote:
What about just making the dueling system such that cheating is not possible?
That is basically the type of arena venue I am in favor of.

Is cheating such a big issue that having one place where it is not possible such a big thing?
Could some one explain why having one place where cheating was not allowed would just ruin EVE?

Because this game is a sandbox. It is the main identity of Eve, it is the base principle for it's design. Everything in Eve were made, tested and implemented with that basic premise. Sandbox means you should be able to do anything you want, but others should be able to do anything they want to you as well. If you're talking about arenas as in typical arenas like most other MMOs have, then it's big NO. Mainly because there should never be any place for such thing to exist in a sandbox concept. It drives the game away from it's base design.


Bud Austrene wrote:
Just because EVE has survived for so long does not mean that CCP has not been fixing it and improving it on a continual bases. There have been hard times when without CCP's improvements EVE would have died.
So yes stagnation is death, open you eyes.

To introduce a formal dueling system with out cheating options would grow the game.
For every old PVPer that succumb to the temptation, there would be a more new PVPers that, disillusioned with the fairness, would be attracted to the cheating side of EVE.

People will be people and most want to have an unfair advantage.
Only a few like to earn what they get.
Most feel that if you can get away with it, then it is ok.

You don't seem to realize the safe arenas would bring more players into the game and that a good portion of them will not stay there. The temptation to be able to cheat outside the arena would be to great for a lot of new players.

Everybody wants something for nothing. Use the safe arenas to attract new players and older ones into PVPing and simply rely on human nature to handle the rest.

Sure there will be a few who will never fight outside of the arena system. They will be a good thing. They will get very good and make a name for themselves (we should have a gladiator standing board). They will cause all their opponents to feel that they can not hope to compete without an edge.

Do you ever fight without an edge or without fearing that your opponent has an edge?
It is in human nature to be that way.

The idea of safe dueling (arena) would benefit everyone

You seem to have failed to grasp the idea of what a sandbox concept is. Have you ever noticed that aside from docking in a station, there's not a single place within Eve Universe, where someone can't just come to you and blow you up? that is, almost by definition, a sandbox element of the game. How can't you see that a typical Arena doesn't even fit in that picture?

Expanding and improving the game doesn't mean it has to move away from the basic principle of the game itself. There are things that makes Eve unique, it's not just the spaceships. Will it drive more people in? well I'm not sure, moving away from sandbox concept would make Eve just like other games out there. But if there's one thing I'm sure, moving away from sandbox, will make a lot of people leave this game, including me.

If you imply people ganking you, blobbing you, or some other variant that revolves around others doing something you don't like as cheating, I can honestly say this is not the game for you. Another quote from one Eve dev regarding this matter,

CCP Soundwave wrote:
It isn’t really hard, but I think there are customers that you can lose in a good way and there’s customers that you can lose in a bad way. If people come in and fundamentally don’t like EVE Online, then I think that might be a good way of losing customers. EVE isn’t for everyone. I wish it was, but the reality is that there are some people who just enjoy playing another game more. And that’s not really that bad.

"I'd rather have other players get shot by other players than not interacting with others" -CCP Soundwave
Bud Austrene
Secure Haven
#122 - 2013-03-06 23:28:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Bud Austrene
Sarah Schneider wrote:



You seem to have failed to grasp the idea of what a sandbox concept is. Have you ever noticed that aside from docking in a station, there's not a single place within Eve Universe, where someone can't just come to you and blow you up? that is, almost by definition, a sandbox element of the game. How can't you see that a typical Arena doesn't even fit in that picture?

Expanding and improving the game doesn't mean it has to move away from the basic principle of the game itself. There are things that makes Eve unique, it's not just the spaceships. Will it drive more people in? well I'm not sure, moving away from sandbox concept would make Eve just like other games out there. But if there's one thing I'm sure, moving away from sandbox, will make a lot of people leave this game, including me.

If you imply people ganking you, blobbing you, or some other variant that revolves around others doing something you don't like as cheating, I can honestly say this is not the game for you. Another quote from one Eve dev regarding this matter,

CCP Soundwave wrote:
It isn’t really hard, but I think there are customers that you can lose in a good way and there’s customers that you can lose in a bad way. If people come in and fundamentally don’t like EVE Online, then I think that might be a good way of losing customers. EVE isn’t for everyone. I wish it was, but the reality is that there are some people who just enjoy playing another game more. And that’s not really that bad.


You misunderstand, and you are wrong. I can play the game and never leave a station and nobody can blow me up. It is a very safe place to be. And i can play in the market there fairly safely.

So you are wrong about there being no safe place. Why would you care if there were another?

I like the idea because i think it would be good for the game not because it is what i want to do.

Yes I am an alt. I see no reason to make it easy for bullies and greifers

Rek Seven
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#123 - 2013-03-06 23:56:42 UTC
Sarah Schneider wrote:

You seem to have failed to grasp the idea of what a sandbox concept is.


I think you do... Proven by the fact that you are arguing against more options/variety being added to the game Blink

A sandbox game is just an open environment with activities to do in multiple ways. EVE is not the world of limitless possibilities some people make it out to be. We will always be limited by the world and tools CCP create.

I hope CCP add an arena but i don't think it should separate the contestants from the rest of EVE. Other players should still be able to participate e.g. spectating the fight, suicide ganks, neutral reps, betting on the outcome, etc.

The wishlist is pretty much complete...
Sarah Schneider
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#124 - 2013-03-07 00:24:37 UTC
Bud Austrene wrote:
You misunderstand, and you are wrong. I can play the game and never leave a station and nobody can blow me up. It is a very safe place to be. And i can play in the market there fairly safely.

So you are wrong about there being no safe place. Why would you care if there were another?

I like the idea because i think it would be good for the game not because it is what i want to do.

Yes, hence why I mentioned station, the only reason why someone can't blow you up while you're in there because it doesn't make sense to implement such blanket mechanics. Even with this, the idea of destructible stations are still being considered.

No, I have never mentioned "safe" in any part of my comments. Safe is what you make of it. The idea of being safe in Eve are tied down to how you make yourself safe. The point being is that the game allows people to blow you up everywhere. There's nothing stopping you from doing "bad" stuff to anyone in Eve, even CONCORD doesn't do that.

There are three main selling points to Eve, spaceships, sandbox and single-shard environment. You missed the point why people seems to reject the idea of an Arena. It is not because of the Arena itself, but how it works. A typical arena as you've seen on most MMOs are not fit to be implemented on a sandbox environment, people know this, CCP knows this. They won't sacrifice a sandbox just because someone 'think' it might be fun.

Rek Seven wrote:
Sarah Schneider wrote:

You seem to have failed to grasp the idea of what a sandbox concept is.


I think you do... Proven by the fact that you are arguing against more options/variety being added to the game Blink

A sandbox game is just an open environment with activities to do in multiple ways. EVE is not the world of limitless possibilities some people make it out to be. We will always be limited by the world and tools CCP create.

I hope CCP add an arena but i don't think it should separate the contestants from the rest of EVE. Other players should still be able to participate e.g. spectating the fight, suicide ganks, neutral reps, betting on the outcome, etc.

Of course we will always be limited by the world and mechanics that CCP create. What are you talking about? this is a game, not real world. Open world environment where pvp is allowed will always means exactly that, pvp is allowed, people don't have to do it themselves, but there should be no game mechanics that prevents people from inflicting 'pvp' to you, regardless of what you're doing.

I'm not against the idea of an Arena, I'm against the idea of a typical Arena you'll find in many other MMOs (if you've read my comments, you'd have noticed this). Because by what you've just said, if an Arena allows others to participate by means of suicide ganks/neutral reps, then what do we need Arenas for? you can do that now.

"I'd rather have other players get shot by other players than not interacting with others" -CCP Soundwave
Rek Seven
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#125 - 2013-03-07 00:33:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Rek Seven
I don't play other MMO so idk what you have in mind when you think arena.

To your lasts question, we need CCP to make arenas because only they can implement the game structure and mechanics to make arena combat viable. I'm not going to waste my time with specific game design ideas as it isn't my job.

The wishlist is pretty much complete...
Sarah Schneider
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#126 - 2013-03-07 00:42:12 UTC
Rek Seven wrote:
I don't play other MMO so idk what you have in mind when you think arena.

To your lasts question, we need CCP to make arenas because only they can implement the game structure and mechanics to make arena combat viable.

The concept of Arenas in most (if not all) other MMOs revolves around an exclusive instance, a place where it has certain limitations and rules, usually involves X numbers of people on one side vs Y numbers on the other side and the game mechanics controls the balance of power between those two groups. It's not what I have in mind, it's the basic concept.

Second part of your comment really doesn't make sense to me, because I've pointed out in a rhetorical question as to why we don't need an arena if it works the way you've said.

"I'd rather have other players get shot by other players than not interacting with others" -CCP Soundwave
Rek Seven
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#127 - 2013-03-07 00:49:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Rek Seven
Previouse post updated please read again.

That idea for an arena seems fine to me. Simply put, an arena is a place for contestants to compete and a spectators to be entertained.

The wishlist is pretty much complete...
Lin Suizei
#128 - 2013-03-07 01:50:35 UTC
Rek Seven wrote:
Previouse post updated please read again.

That idea for an arena seems fine to me. Simply put, an arena is a place for contestants to compete and a spectators to be entertained.


Okay, how would this be different from the current lolpvp arena system of "warp to planet 1"? Everyone is able to watch and be entertained, and neutrals can assist according to the game rules.

Lol I can't delete my forum sig.
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#129 - 2013-03-07 02:06:43 UTC
Lin Suizei wrote:
Rek Seven wrote:
Previouse post updated please read again.

That idea for an arena seems fine to me. Simply put, an arena is a place for contestants to compete and a spectators to be entertained.

Okay, how would this be different from the current lolpvp arena system of "warp to planet 1"? Everyone is able to watch and be entertained, and neutrals can assist according to the game rules.

Haha, well you see:
Lin Suizei wrote:
neutrals can assist according to the game rules.

Even if neutral reppers will get lolowned, there's still BOOSTER LOKI ALTS

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Irsam Samri
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#130 - 2013-03-07 02:31:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Irsam Samri
Sarah Schneider wrote:
Because this game is a sandbox. It is the main identity of Eve, it is the base principle for it's design. Everything in Eve were made, tested and implemented with that basic premise. Sandbox means you should be able to do anything you want, but others should be able to do anything they want to you as well. If you're talking about arenas as in typical arenas like most other MMOs have, then it's big NO. Mainly because there should never be any place for such thing to exist in a sandbox concept. It drives the game away from it's base design.


I don't think he's talking about typical arenas that other MMOs have. In other games they usually take you to another map completely separate from the world - including a load time.
The Arenas would simply be a part of the sand box, just another thing to do, it wouldn't be a "zone" outside of the Eve sandbox but simply a mechanism to allow people to organize small group engagements better.

FW already does this in plex sizes for example - they create a structure within people can get better fights - by matching up frigs vs frigs - cruisers vs cruisers. An arena could simply be exactly the same thing as a plex but take it a step further and try and match the engagements up in terms of fleet strength.

I wonder if when FW mechanisms for plex sizes were coming out, people trashed it as not part of the sandbox state of mind because it limits what ships can engage what ships.
Irsam Samri
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#131 - 2013-03-07 02:37:41 UTC
Sarah Schneider wrote:

The concept of Arenas in most (if not all) other MMOs revolves around an exclusive instance, a place where it has certain limitations and rules, usually involves X numbers of people on one side vs Y numbers on the other side and the game mechanics controls the balance of power between those two groups. It's not what I have in mind, it's the basic concept.

Second part of your comment really doesn't make sense to me, because I've pointed out in a rhetorical question as to why we don't need an arena if it works the way you've said.


Yeah this! So what about arenas that are simply tied into game play and allow people to get into engagements faster.
In my months of FW experience, there are two things I hate - running around as a large blob and smashing everything we find without a challenge - and running around as a small group and getting smashed by giant blobs.
There is a very delicate sweet spot that is RARE where good and fun group fights happen - I just want to fight more... thats all!
Sivren Ravenwood
Ravenwood Defense Industries
#132 - 2013-03-07 06:18:26 UTC
I got my idea from the one CCP holds just about every year if I recall. I just thought it would be a good idea to make it open year round. But I asfar as I can tell no one really pays any mind to whats going on on other systems. As for lowsec it has its pros and cons you can get pvp there but some days you can get it alot and other days well you sit there alone wiating for some one. And as for nulsec well big blue ring kinda makes things boring at times. Any ways seeing how I upset people on the forms with the idea of makeing something that alot of people would enjoy I will let you lot be guess I will have to wait a few months for the next New Eden Open.
Mon Diddies
Indigo Generation
#133 - 2013-03-07 06:25:06 UTC
It's in 0.0 go there and ask for some pvp

Dont believe anything you read, and only half of what you see. To be fair dont trust what you hear either.!!!!!!! TINFOIL ACTIVATE!!!!!!!!!
Rek Seven
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#134 - 2013-03-07 07:20:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Rek Seven
Lin Suizei wrote:
Rek Seven wrote:
Previouse post updated please read again.

That idea for an arena seems fine to me. Simply put, an arena is a place for contestants to compete and a spectators to be entertained.


Okay, how would this be different from the current lolpvp arena system of "warp to planet 1"? Everyone is able to watch and be entertained, and neutrals can assist according to the game rules.


I don't like to repeat my self, especially when we we are just theorising but as i said before, we need CCP need to create the rules and structure for this game within a game to work because effectively, arena pvp would become the sport of EVE and without rules and control, you can't have sport. Sure we could just go to a planet and have a duel but that is not arena combat and it does not create a showcase for the pvp in eve. As i said in a previous post:

Rek Seven wrote:
Vets can argue all they want but I think EVE needs a pvp arena if we want to see a less risk adverse culture grow in EVE.

Noobs need to be shown how fun pvp is and that they have the potential to have a bigger effect on the game.


As some people have pointed out, maybe allowing neutral reps and ganking wouldn't be a good idea but there should still be a way for the rest of EVE to get involved in an arena match they are not part of. Not allowing ganks does not necessarily go against the nature of EVE, as you can't gank someone in a station while they are doing industry either.

The wishlist is pretty much complete...
lollerwaffle
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#135 - 2013-03-07 09:59:31 UTC
Rek Seven wrote:
I don't like to repeat my self, especially when we we are just theorising but as i said before, we need CCP need to create the rules and structure for this game within a game to work because effectively, arena pvp would become the sport of EVE and without rules and control, you can't have sport. Sure we could just go to a planet and have a duel but that is not arena combat and it does not create a showcase for the pvp in eve. As i said in a previous post:

As some people have pointed out, maybe allowing neutral reps and ganking wouldn't be a good idea but there should still be a way for the rest of EVE to get involved in an arena match they are not part of. Not allowing ganks does not necessarily go against the nature of EVE, as you can't gank someone in a station while they are doing industry either.


Not addressed at you specifically, but:

1. Risk adverse players won't join arenas if it means ship destruction. If they would, they would already be participating in one of the many options currently out there, such as RVB, or even organising one themselves.

2. People curious about PVP, but have never tried due to their perception of lack of fairness etc. currently HAVE the option to try it out. It's up to them to figure out what they are, if they were so inclined.

3. CCP already has rules in place with the new dueling system. IIRC, they were also thinking about expanding it to allow for 3v3 or 5v5 etc. matches to be held.

4. Proponents of arenas in this thread need to agree on what they want. If a complete 'safe' zone is wanted, i.e. one where other players cannot have ANY effect on the participants, this goes against the principle of EVE, where you should not be isolated from the rest of the EVE world.

5. As for the claim that introducing arenas to EVE would draw in more players... I'm guessing that claim is based on examples of.....??? Instead of merely claiming that 'fact', it would be good to back it up with reasoning. For counter arguments about introduction of new blood to EVE via arenas, please refer to the more eloquent responses from other posters above. Also, to attract new players using arenas, maybe CCP would have to change their marketing to "Welcome to EVE, a cold harsh universe, where players can be protected from interference from other players via our unique PVP arenas". Yeah, maybe not.

6. For an all-year long tournament similar to the Alliance tourney held by CCP, that would be down to players organizing such an event if so desired (and motivated). For an example, check out 'Syndicate Competitive League' as showcased in the Dev blogs. Link for the lazy. This is a prime example of players taking the initiative to create something with a fixed set of rules of engagement etc. It's the players that enforce the rules etc.

7. I'm sure there are more arguments I missed, but I'll let the other posters answer that. Also, I see that posts explaining how PVP as whole would suffer have been conveniently ignored. Lol

tl;dr, it should be up to players to enforce rules, not for CCP to create 'safe' havens where other players cannot interact with the participants in any way, which goes against the entire design philosophy of EVE.
Sarah Schneider
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#136 - 2013-03-07 10:21:51 UTC
Rek Seven wrote:
As some people have pointed out, maybe allowing neutral reps and ganking wouldn't be a good idea but there should still be a way for the rest of EVE to get involved in an arena match they are not part of. Not allowing ganks does not necessarily go against the nature of EVE, as you can't gank someone in a station while they are doing industry either.

This argument is silly and you should stop it.

lollerwaffle wrote:
tl;dr, it should be up to players to enforce rules, not for CCP to create 'safe' havens where other players cannot interact with the participants in any way, which goes against the entire design philosophy of EVE.

Exactly this. It boggles my mind why some people still can't grasp this basic idea of EVE and still play the game.

"I'd rather have other players get shot by other players than not interacting with others" -CCP Soundwave
Rek Seven
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#137 - 2013-03-07 11:39:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Rek Seven
Sarah Schneider wrote:

This argument is silly and you should stop it.


It's not a silly argument when there are people like you who seem to think eve is just about ganking and blowing stuff up.

How is a arena risk free anyway? Someone is going to lose their ship... Straight

I'm yet to hear a valid argument as to why they shouldn't implement arenas other that someones personal opinion of how they think EVE is "meant to be played".

1 . There is no proof that arena combat would take anything away from current forms of PVP. Logically you would expect more people to become interested in PVP.

2. Arena, combat might help people to understand that it's okay to lose a ship or two.

3. It would allow noobs to test out their ships in a controlled/fair environment before they jump into low sec and get ganked on a gate Blink

Thoughts?

The wishlist is pretty much complete...
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#138 - 2013-03-07 11:43:00 UTC  |  Edited by: baltec1
Rek Seven wrote:


I don't like to repeat my self, especially when we we are just theorising but as i said before, we need CCP need to create the rules and structure for this game within a game to work because effectively, arena pvp would become the sport of EVE and without rules and control, you can't have sport. Sure we could just go to a planet and have a duel but that is not arena combat and it does not create a showcase for the pvp in eve. As i said in a previous post:



The showcase for EVE pvp is the huge fleet battles and brilliant scams. Arena PVP has no place here.

Also all the tools are in place for contests, E-Radio have been doing it for a decade.
Rek Seven
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#139 - 2013-03-07 11:50:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Rek Seven
^ That's just your opinion

My opinion is that arenas would provide a stepping stone for other forms of PVP.

The wishlist is pretty much complete...
Roime
Mea Culpa.
Shadow Cartel
#140 - 2013-03-07 11:52:14 UTC
Great post, lollerwaffe. Sums up most of the things I'd write if I had the time.

"PVP" is not a separate area of EVE, it's inbuilt into the nature of this sandbox. Reality is not fair, and the sense of realness is what makes EVE special. There are no rules to break, you kill or get killed, and we don't want combat to be turned into some kind of meaningless sport.

If someone is too risk averse to fly out and shoot others, EVE is the wong game for you.

.