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SP game breaking for new players. Please take your time to read this CCP.

First post First post
Author
Nalelmir Ahashion
Industrial Management and Engineering
Mouth Trumpet Cavalry
#661 - 2013-06-14 23:20:46 UTC
played SWTOR for total of 6 months. out of the 8 classes I got 6 to max level (55), with my guild I finished ALL 100% game content (except 2 classes story).
on swtor style games you need to get into max level in order to do group end game content but not only that you also need to get very high end gear in order to grind for more high end gear in to no purpose at all.
in conclusion this type of game gets boring an extremely repetitive.

With eve after 1 day finishing the tutorials agent I can:
Trade, craft, pvp, pve, mine, explore and many more things without being limited by skills.
Eve skills method allows players to get more options for their gameplay beside kill X amount of static npcs like other games.
Actually I find myself enjoying the company of other players and the fact we play together in pve missons, incursions, pvp wars with other corps etc is much better then "level up" for no reason just for e-peen sake.
Also Eve is sandbox which is best thing ever, I can do whatever I want where in SWTOR style games I am limited by the game mechanics... I mean as maxed level character on swtor with group of 20 people why I can't invade and burn the opposing side city? on eve I can.
Caa Zhjick
Perkone
Caldari State
#662 - 2013-06-20 10:09:01 UTC
Referencing the original post, I have to be honest as well:

The first month was fantastic, completely overwhelmed by the options and it was a blast learning the mechanics and becoming involved in the game on multiple levels. Then came the second month - the awkward middle ground between the initial "shine" of the game bringing the fun, and the realization that in order to achieve anything worthwhile, it takes a bare minimum of a year leveling.

I work in sales, and CCP has a solid business model. It's based entirely on time, and the less time player spend training, the less money CCP makes. Pushing for alts and charging PLEX (2, really?) to transfer a character, or charging money to train more than one character at once, seems more like a business ploy than a favor for the community.

It seems nowadays the only "fun" I get out of the game is reading about the stories other players have, particularly those with the years of experience to fly decent ships. Of course you can fly cheap frigates, but you'll never reach a competitive level and be able to participate in the grand schemes that make EVE so attractive to new players.

Just like the original post, I had a group of 5 friends playing the game - all quit after the first month. It's incredibly frustrating knowing that abilities are limited by the time (and by extension, money) you've invested in the game rather than skill or short-term investments.

Again, not bashing the game, I'm still here and want it to get better. But my game experience at this point consists mainly of sitting and waiting for skills to complete rather than actively doing things. In my opinion, the game is intimidating for new players not because of the learning curve, but because to train the BARE MINIMUM skills (e.g. standard certificates) you're look at several hundred dollars investment and at least a year.

I look forward to the day when EVE veterans can send out 5 invitations, and 5 of them keep playing.
Signal11th
#663 - 2013-06-20 10:11:52 UTC
Caa Zhjick wrote:
Referencing the original post, I have to be honest as well:

The first month was fantastic, completely overwhelmed by the options and it was a blast learning the mechanics and becoming involved in the game on multiple levels. Then came the second month - the awkward middle ground between the initial "shine" of the game bringing the fun, and the realization that in order to achieve anything worthwhile, it takes a bare minimum of a year leveling.

I work in sales, and CCP has a solid business model. It's based entirely on time, and the less time player spend training, the less money CCP makes. Pushing for alts and charging PLEX (2, really?) to transfer a character, or charging money to train more than one character at once, seems more like a business ploy than a favor for the community.

It seems nowadays the only "fun" I get out of the game is reading about the stories other players have, particularly those with the years of experience to fly decent ships. Of course you can fly cheap frigates, but you'll never reach a competitive level and be able to participate in the grand schemes that make EVE so attractive to new players.

Just like the original post, I had a group of 5 friends playing the game - all quit after the first month. It's incredibly frustrating knowing that abilities are limited by the time (and by extension, money) you've invested in the game rather than skill or short-term investments.

Again, not bashing the game, I'm still here and want it to get better. But my game experience at this point consists mainly of sitting and waiting for skills to complete rather than actively doing things. In my opinion, the game is intimidating for new players not because of the learning curve, but because to train the BARE MINIMUM skills (e.g. standard certificates) you're look at several hundred dollars investment and at least a year.

I look forward to the day when EVE veterans can send out 5 invitations, and 5 of them keep playing.



The sad thing is when you actually get the ability to fly the shiny ships you will spend more time in the basic ships because they are more fun.

God Said "Come Forth and receive eternal life!" I came fifth and won a toaster!

Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#664 - 2013-06-20 13:23:38 UTC
Caa Zhjick wrote:
Referencing the original post, I have to be honest as well:

The first month was fantastic, completely overwhelmed by the options and it was a blast learning the mechanics and becoming involved in the game on multiple levels. Then came the second month - the awkward middle ground between the initial "shine" of the game bringing the fun, and the realization that in order to achieve anything worthwhile, it takes a bare minimum of a year leveling.

I work in sales, and CCP has a solid business model. It's based entirely on time, and the less time player spend training, the less money CCP makes. Pushing for alts and charging PLEX (2, really?) to transfer a character, or charging money to train more than one character at once, seems more like a business ploy than a favor for the community.

It seems nowadays the only "fun" I get out of the game is reading about the stories other players have, particularly those with the years of experience to fly decent ships. Of course you can fly cheap frigates, but you'll never reach a competitive level and be able to participate in the grand schemes that make EVE so attractive to new players.

Just like the original post, I had a group of 5 friends playing the game - all quit after the first month. It's incredibly frustrating knowing that abilities are limited by the time (and by extension, money) you've invested in the game rather than skill or short-term investments.

Again, not bashing the game, I'm still here and want it to get better. But my game experience at this point consists mainly of sitting and waiting for skills to complete rather than actively doing things. In my opinion, the game is intimidating for new players not because of the learning curve, but because to train the BARE MINIMUM skills (e.g. standard certificates) you're look at several hundred dollars investment and at least a year.

I look forward to the day when EVE veterans can send out 5 invitations, and 5 of them keep playing.


While I appreciate your perspective, I disagree that the issue is the skill training. I think there is a major misconception (especially from other games) that you NEED a certain "base level" of skills to be competitive. While it is true that you gain an advantage, or level the playing field once you ascertain some mythical base level, EvE functions in such a manner that "winning" and being competitive is more a matter of player knowledge, situational awareness, and teammates than character skills.

Chi'Nane T'Kal
Interminatus
#665 - 2013-06-20 13:59:01 UTC
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:

While I appreciate your perspective, I disagree that the issue is the skill training. I think there is a major misconception (especially from other games) that you NEED a certain "base level" of skills to be competitive. While it is true that you gain an advantage, or level the playing field once you ascertain some mythical base level, EvE functions in such a manner that "winning" and being competitive is more a matter of player knowledge, situational awareness, and teammates than character skills.


You DO need a certain level of skills to avoid making a lof of compromise on ship fittings. Being forced to make compromises is terribly annoying, especially when you are aware of the fact that others won't have to make them.

Compromise is the ugly little step sister of perfection.
Bruce Kemp
Safety Set To Red
Corpse Disposal Services
#666 - 2013-06-21 11:10:47 UTC
So you have been playing 2 months and you are telling the devs how the game should be?

try playing for 10 years, THEN tell the devs how EVE should be, Roll
Tak Amaruu
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#667 - 2013-06-22 12:55:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Tak Amaruu
I consider myself a new player. Even though I've had my first go at Eve back in 2006 or so. And this character was created about 1,5 year ago. I only recently gave Eve more than a 1 month shot.

What makes Eve so great, and at the same time so daunting, is the fact that it does take a lot to get loads of SP. In that way it mimics real life. Sure, it might take a year or more to get the SP to do the huge stuff that a lot of people want to do so badly. But does that mean the stuff that takes less SP is less fun?

Is real life only interesting if you're managing Coca Cola? Or controlling a seafaring battleship? I'm having loads of fun running my own business, driving my own car. They're no Apple, or Bugatti Veyron, but does that define fun?

Just like in real life, to me in Eve, the fun is everywhere.
Velarra
#668 - 2013-06-23 01:41:13 UTC
Source: CCP's QEN_Q3_2010 (pg 10.). Graphs & further context exist on earlier pages.

Quote:
Assuming around 20 million skill points per year, these numbers would suggest that it would take the average player around 2 years in order to become competitive in null security space, but that once they have reached that level they are fully competitive with other players.


Context:

Quote:
What is noticeable right away is the fact that characters with a lower total number of skill points account for a higher portion of lost ships. What is also noticeable is that a majority of all final kills in null security space is made by players with more than 50 million skill points. This is in stark contrast to low and high security space, where less than 40% of the final kills are scored with characters that have 50 million skill points or more. As an example, only 35% of all kills in low security space are made by players with more than 50 million skill points and only 35% of all kills in high security space are made by players in this same category. The distribution shows clearly how characters progress within EVE, where pilots move from high security space to low security space and then finally into null security space as their skills and experience grow. Assuming around 20 million skill points per year, these numbers would suggest that it would take the average player around 2 years in order to become competitive in null security space, but that once they have reached that level they are fully competitive with other players.
IIshira
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#669 - 2013-06-23 02:03:07 UTC
Velarra wrote:
Source: CCP's QEN_Q3_2010 (pg 10.). Graphs & further context exist on earlier pages.

Quote:
Assuming around 20 million skill points per year, these numbers would suggest that it would take the average player around 2 years in order to become competitive in null security space, but that once they have reached that level they are fully competitive with other players.


Context:

Quote:
What is noticeable right away is the fact that characters with a lower total number of skill points account for a higher portion of lost ships. What is also noticeable is that a majority of all final kills in null security space is made by players with more than 50 million skill points. This is in stark contrast to low and high security space, where less than 40% of the final kills are scored with characters that have 50 million skill points or more. As an example, only 35% of all kills in low security space are made by players with more than 50 million skill points and only 35% of all kills in high security space are made by players in this same category. The distribution shows clearly how characters progress within EVE, where pilots move from high security space to low security space and then finally into null security space as their skills and experience grow. Assuming around 20 million skill points per year, these numbers would suggest that it would take the average player around 2 years in order to become competitive in null security space, but that once they have reached that level they are fully competitive with other players.


More skill points means the person has been playing longer so of course lower SP pilots will have more losses. From personal experience and watching others most newer player deaths have nothing to do with SP and everything to due with lack of understanding on how to play.

The notion that it takes two years to be "competitive" in nullsec is ridiculous.
Velarra
#670 - 2013-06-23 02:06:45 UTC
IIshira wrote:
The notion that it takes two years to be "competitive" in nullsec is ridiculous.


So you're suggesting that CCP's own numbers & results are incorrect?
Havohej
Cretus Incendium
Electus Matari
#671 - 2013-06-23 06:24:46 UTC
Hefty TheFirst wrote:
Am I speaking the wrong language?
This is a flamebait discussion started by a troll.

I saw you made this typo, so I cleared it up for you.

Certs are meaningless (seriously CCP). I've got 42m sp, barely any certs, and am well-skilled (as a player and in SP on the character sheet) to fly several T2 hulls across three races (fu caldari ships, don't need you).

The thing about skills is that they only go to level five. A 3 month old toon with frigate skills (including small guns of his race, etc.) trained to level five is on equal footing with a 3 year old toon in a frigate hull... at that point, it becomes a matter of player experience/skill.

It's good to see this thread after being away in prison for three years - it tells me CCP has been smart enough not to change its system overmuch.

Strike us like matches, 'cause everyone deserves the flames.

OOC Forums @ Backstage

IIshira
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#672 - 2013-06-23 14:42:16 UTC
Velarra wrote:
IIshira wrote:
The notion that it takes two years to be "competitive" in nullsec is ridiculous.


So you're suggesting that CCP's own numbers & results are incorrect?


I'm saying from my own experience. I know many pilots that are with less than two years. Can you link the article where CCP posted this. If you linked it before my apologies.
IIshira
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#673 - 2013-06-23 15:04:49 UTC
Havohej wrote:


The thing about skills is that they only go to level five. A 3 month old toon with frigate skills (including small guns of his race, etc.) trained to level five is on equal footing with a 3 year old toon in a frigate hull... at that point, it becomes a matter of player experience/skill.


Like this poster said it depends on what you want to fly. Naturally it takes a lot less time to be effective in smaller ships than larger ones. While if one wants to pilot a Titan it's going to take a few years but it doesn't take that long in a Battlecruiser or smaller.

Most PVP is situational so if you put yourself in a bad situation no amount of SP will save you. This is where older pilots will do better because they have more experience understanding of how to play the game. Of course newer pilots die more often. "Why can't I run level 4's during war?... You don't know what you're talking about! They can't find me". A few hours later "That jerk killed me for no reason! This game is so unfair that a two year old player can destroy my Battleship in a cruiser!"
Havohej
Cretus Incendium
Electus Matari
#674 - 2013-06-23 16:00:32 UTC
Velarra wrote:
IIshira wrote:
The notion that it takes two years to be "competitive" in nullsec is ridiculous.


So you're suggesting that CCP's own numbers & results are incorrect?

I think IIshira was suggesting more that CCP's supposition that the kill:death ratio of low SP and high SP players in nullsec has to do with SP itself misses entirely the point that players who've been around long enough to have high sp have a lot of player knowledge and player skill.

Me having such a decent killboard record isn't because I've got 40m+ sp, it's because I L2P early on by reading forums and watching pvp vids and seeing "how it's done". Garmon tought me about 30% of what I know with his vids, for example.

But even before watching his stuff, I was flying a T2 fitted Rifter in lowsec hunting turret-based cruisers... I knew not to toy with Caracals, Vexors or Arbitrators, but everybody else was a victim :yar: Moved on to hunting BCs and newbie BS pilots in my Wolf. When I got tired of killing people that way, I was hitting Battlecruisers lvl 4 so it was time for solo pvp in lowsec with a Hurricane.

The real problem these whiney kids have is not being able to grind at the keyboard for instant rewards. I mean wow... 6 months to play th entirety of an MMO? Thanks for letting me know NOT to try SWTOR!

Also, they just can't handle the thought of losing their precious pixels. If getting blown up just meant ghosting back to your corpse and picking up where you left off, the whole experience would be pretty worthless. Like that other game all these people or better-suited to but oh, so bored with.

I know "because of falcon" is passé, but can we still say gb2wow? Or is it gb2swtor now?

Strike us like matches, 'cause everyone deserves the flames.

OOC Forums @ Backstage

Velarra
#675 - 2013-06-23 18:19:06 UTC
Havohej wrote:
Velarra wrote:
IIshira wrote:
The notion that it takes two years to be "competitive" in nullsec is ridiculous.


So you're suggesting that CCP's own numbers & results are incorrect?

I think IIshira was suggesting more that CCP's supposition that the kill:death ratio of low SP and high SP players in nullsec has to do with SP itself misses entirely the point that players who've been around long enough to have high sp have a lot of player knowledge and player skill.

Me having such a decent killboard record isn't because I've got 40m+ sp, it's because I L2P early on by reading forums and watching pvp vids and seeing "how it's done". Garmon tought me about 30% of what I know with his vids, for example.

But even before watching his stuff, I was flying a T2 fitted Rifter in lowsec hunting turret-based cruisers... I knew not to toy with Caracals, Vexors or Arbitrators, but everybody else was a victim :yar: Moved on to hunting BCs and newbie BS pilots in my Wolf. When I got tired of killing people that way, I was hitting Battlecruisers lvl 4 so it was time for solo pvp in lowsec with a Hurricane.

The real problem these whiney kids have is not being able to grind at the keyboard for instant rewards. I mean wow... 6 months to play th entirety of an MMO? Thanks for letting me know NOT to try SWTOR!

Also, they just can't handle the thought of losing their precious pixels. If getting blown up just meant ghosting back to your corpse and picking up where you left off, the whole experience would be pretty worthless. Like that other game all these people or better-suited to but oh, so bored with.

I know "because of falcon" is passé, but can we still say gb2wow? Or is it gb2swtor now?


You're pretty much spot on here, - yet i do think that with enough time and experience, one can be prone to underrate SP. To presume player skill really is > SP. I'll certainly acknowledge that player skill may give you tactics to overcome the ignorant mistakes of younger and older players alike, and avoid fights you very likely can't win (regardless of SP differentials).

I think when people complain about this issue, some of it IS justified. That it's not all purely player skill, that over time, thousands of fights between pilots of various skill & SP levels, in various regions of space, that at the very least, SP creates something of a buffer for error. In all cases? Hardly. But enough that it's not a blind complaint. That you get those kinds of numbers reported in the QEN.

Worse yet, is there an absolute solution? That'd level the playing field? No. Eve is horrifically harsh. Of all the various suggestions solutions that come up, - respecs, plex for SP, etc..etc, They'd break Eve. Consequence would lose meaning. you'd rapidly approach an environment not unlike SiSi.

At best one can probably accept, adapt and move forward. Even if the complaint really is partially valid.
Thanatos Marathon
Moira.
Villore Accords
#676 - 2013-06-24 17:30:19 UTC
From a newbs perspective SP does matter quite a bit, but part of the joy is watching that skill count down and getting ready to fit a T2 Blaster, tank, etc. On the other hand, there is plenty of pew pew to be had by low SP characters and it can be an absolute blast. Just running from a small gang chasing you can be fun and helps you get better (dscan skills, learning the map, etc.).
Majindoom Shi
Nightmare Logistics
#677 - 2013-06-25 05:02:08 UTC
Why is this thread still going? Let's all start trolling to get it shut down
Karash Amerius
The Seven Shadows
#678 - 2013-06-25 18:47:41 UTC
I think the whole definition of "Winning" and "Losing" should be tossed out when discussing Eve. If you already think in these terms, then I pity you as a player...there is plenty of "win" a new player can achieve, but you must be bold and have goals worthy of a challenge.

Skills are just options. Be focused in your pursuit of a goal. Once that goal is obtained, your skill tree will naturally be at a point to pursue another...if in fact you actually need arbitrary skills to "win" in your mind.

Karash Amerius Operative, Sutoka

Twulf
Thunder Clap Industry
League 0f Grumpy 0ld Farts
#679 - 2013-06-25 20:17:51 UTC
I can see both sides, unlike most bitter Vets it seems.

I just hit 10m SP on this my main toon. SP matters, it matters a whole lot. To say other wise is just silly. At 10m SP I still lack Skills to fit my ships correctly and that means I will lose most battles as Fitting your ships is one of the most important factors in EVE.

I see ship fitting links in Corp chat all the time, I click on them and I can fit most of it but one or two things I cannot fit, those one or two things makes a huge difference when out PVP. HUGE.

It is fitting the ships correctly that is the make or break part of EVE, you can lose a fight before you even undock if you are not fitted correctly and that is where SP matters.

I can fit most of my ship just like the corp or FC wants but the one or two things I cannot fit due to SP reason puts me at a disadvantaged the second I undock. Since I am a new player anyways with less knowledge then most, then we add in the best I can do ship fittings, I die more then I kill, that can be fun for a bit but after awhile it makes me personally want to avoid PVP until I have the Right SP to fit my ships correctly which goes back to the point of this thread.

Yes SP matters, it matters more then most Vets want to admit.
Yes Fitting your ships correctly before undocking is very important (SP again)
Knowing how to counter certain ships and their fits comes with time and experience, not SP.

So a new player has to battle both lack of SP and lack of Knowledge, when you combine those two factors, that is why I would say 90% of all new players quit. It is not that EVE is not the game for them, it is that they feel they have no chance unless they wait or spend RL monehy.
Thanatos Marathon
Moira.
Villore Accords
#680 - 2013-06-25 20:31:58 UTC
I'm ok with 90% of gamers leaving EvE. It seems like there are still more then enough players and enough new ones trickling in that stick to keep things rockin.

I have something like 12 mil sp (thanks to the split of destroyers and BCs) and I do just fine in pvp for my experience level I think. Even when I die it is still a blast (unless I get smart bombed...that gets old, but doesn't happen much).