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SP game breaking for new players. Please take your time to read this CCP.

First post First post
Author
Amadeus3
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#641 - 2013-06-07 18:48:25 UTC
Everything I wanted to do being 1.5-2yrs away was the REASON I kept subbing.
Lost True
Perkone
Caldari State
#642 - 2013-06-08 06:06:55 UTC
This topic is still on the first page?
Jees, shut up already...

in 2007 i've thought it's a sci-fi simulator, not an "e-sports" game. I'm not a teenager, how would i like it much?

Gotta Hairball
Doomheim
#643 - 2013-06-08 06:10:12 UTC
GimmieCash wrote:
long training time is a good thing. this isnt wow where you can be the best at everything in less than 3 months. the long training seperates the real players from the nubs who wont learn about the game and quit after 3 months. ive been playing this game for quite a long time and im still learning new things about it. i love this game and id say never cut down the training time.


I agree. My gaming friends all, sadly, play WoW and Star Wars. It seems every few months they max out a character and start over with a new one. I have never subbed to one of those games, it seems pointless to me. Eve on the other hand, is full of possibilities and I love knowing that I'll never "max out" my character. There will always be something new to try and another skill to train.

To me, it seems the OP was the true troll here. He expected all his questions to be answered without any clarification on his part as to what he or his friends wanted/expected.

I have a feeling I'm going to be playing Eve for a long time and I'm really looking forward to it! Big smile

I'm not saying you did it, I'm just saying I'm blaming you.

Lost True
Perkone
Caldari State
#644 - 2013-06-08 06:19:15 UTC
Amadeus3 wrote:
Everything I wanted to do being 1.5-2yrs away was the REASON I kept subbing.

My current SP and my 2700 SP/Hour is the ONLY REASON why my accounts are always active. Although i've trained up everything i need 4 years ago. I'm actually playing 2 months in a year, and i love to watch my character grow.

So the day when there won't be passive SP gain will be the last day i pay and play.

Of course, the game itself without sp is cool, but there's always a time when you're not enjoying anymore. In most cases that means unsubbing and forgetting about the game. In eve, the game is just going to RL - you're still "playing", training the character, you just doing RL stuff instead of flying starships for now.

I'm not sure that even CCP actually realizes how brilliant the idea of passive training is, both for their income and for players. Considering the previous paragraph.

in 2007 i've thought it's a sci-fi simulator, not an "e-sports" game. I'm not a teenager, how would i like it much?

Lost True
Perkone
Caldari State
#645 - 2013-06-08 06:33:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Lost True
Gotta Hairball wrote:
GimmieCash wrote:
long training time is a good thing. this isnt wow where you can be the best at everything in less than 3 months. the long training seperates the real players from the nubs who wont learn about the game and quit after 3 months. ive been playing this game for quite a long time and im still learning new things about it. i love this game and id say never cut down the training time.


I agree. My gaming friends all, sadly, play WoW and Star Wars. It seems every few months they max out a character and start over with a new one. I have never subbed to one of those games, it seems pointless to me. Eve on the other hand, is full of possibilities and I love knowing that I'll never "max out" my character. There will always be something new to try and another skill to train.

To me, it seems the OP was the true troll here. He expected all his questions to be answered without any clarification on his part as to what he or his friends wanted/expected.

I have a feeling I'm going to be playing Eve for a long time and I'm really looking forward to it! Big smile

As i agree with that eve is long and this is good, i'd like to say something about those other games...

I'm playing one of those "short" games now. Star Trek Online.
Yes, it's takes some days get the max level, but there's sill many things to achieve. I've played it for 6 months already, with one character, and i still have much to do. The level cap now seems to me like 5% of everything else. There's a cannons that i'd like to install on my ship, and some of the other very rare mods... but i'm not sure that i'll get them because i'm tired for now and taking a break from it. It's very much like getting a 5% boost from 30-day long skill. BUT it's much harder, because i can't just wait for it... And that's sad - i can wait a long skill in eve - not a problem, who cares. But it's sucks to spend days sitting in the game to finnaly achieve something...

I don't understand why there's some whinners about this... Or no, i can - there's alwys the whinners, no matter what.

I never had a problems with the skills. Of course i was happy to finnaly train Command Ships to V (my first T2 ship), but i was doing OK without it, although it's was much harder few years ago... So maybe you guys just suck, and trying to blame SP system for that?

in 2007 i've thought it's a sci-fi simulator, not an "e-sports" game. I'm not a teenager, how would i like it much?

Douglas Whyte
WhyteKream
#646 - 2013-06-08 17:53:33 UTC
The problem with eve, skills, and new players, is not the skills or eve, but the new players. WHY? because allot of them are migrating from the death of their beloved and looking for something to fill the void. The problem is not with eve, but the behavior that's been taught to players.

GET TO MAX THEN HAVE FUN

Does getting all the core skills take over a year, yes. Do you need all the core skill at 5? no... do you even need ALL of them at 4?.... no. Yet to new players, they look at the cert's as a progression bar, or achievement, and think that's what I HAVE to have. Without ever thinking, oh hey I can take on a BS with a frig, with less then a week training.

Eve's end game starts as soon as you create you character. Unlike other MMO's, that advertise story, this starts YOUR's as soon as your game loads. The very moment you begin playing you're beginning a story. A story of a new pilot, with little skills, a big aspirations, embarking on a journey to discover their destiny.

It literally forces you to walk that journey, to focus on it instead of the destination. Because in eve, that end is only as possible as the person who's there now. The community changes how you can interact in this game so much, that there is no end game. The end game is when jove's say "**** these barbarians" and kill us all in our sleep (downtime).

I can understand planning for what you want to do, to fly the ship you want to fly with the stats you want. I'm there too. I can understand planning to have everything and realizing it'll take 2-3years... to which I can understand the reaction of **** this. I myself though WTH, I can barely plan what I want to do over the next year in life, yet here I am planning for it in a game?.

That's when I realize, always... because I always seem to find my way back to planning :P..., that I need to log in and play. I need to think what can I do now, I need to talk to people, I need to expand my mentality. I need to just play the game.

Then I find something to do, that's really profitable, and go hell yeah. What now?.
Troezar
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#647 - 2013-06-08 20:40:26 UTC
EVE where the destination is life and living is all that matters...
Ronny Hugo
Cyno Inc. Reactions
Goonswarm Federation
#648 - 2013-06-09 11:17:19 UTC
Without going through all the posts after the first one, I think I can contribute. In response to the first post:
There's lots to do without elite skills. The alts prove that (most alts don't have many SP). This is not a game where it all begins when you have the best possible skills. The skills are secondary, knowing how to fly the skills you have against others (PVE and PVP) is more important. You don't need maxed out DPS and HP etc to have a chance, you just need to know which fit and abilities other ships have and tailor your fit to that. You'll lose a lot of ships before you fit your ships in accordance with reality, not some fantasy we have about how other ships are fit, but you will gain SP as you lose ship after ship and learn to fit your choice of ships for all their purposes. By the time you are elite at fitting your ships and flying your ships, you have excellent skills to accompany you. But you will have to chose what skills you do not need, you won't train it all, that's the point. Only by specializing can you be the best at one task.
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#649 - 2013-06-09 12:27:39 UTC
Lost True wrote:
Amadeus3 wrote:
Everything I wanted to do being 1.5-2yrs away was the REASON I kept subbing.

My current SP and my 2700 SP/Hour is the ONLY REASON why my accounts are always active. Although i've trained up everything i need 4 years ago. I'm actually playing 2 months in a year, and i love to watch my character grow.

So the day when there won't be passive SP gain will be the last day i pay and play.

Of course, the game itself without sp is cool, but there's always a time when you're not enjoying anymore. In most cases that means unsubbing and forgetting about the game. In eve, the game is just going to RL - you're still "playing", training the character, you just doing RL stuff instead of flying starships for now.

I'm not sure that even CCP actually realizes how brilliant the idea of passive training is, both for their income and for players. Considering the previous paragraph.


I think they're pretty well aware.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016

Anna Djan
Banana Corp
#650 - 2013-06-09 21:09:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Anna Djan
For a start you're making up numbers.

It takes a char with + 3 implants 145 days (less than half a year) to get MAX core skill certificate.

Followed by the skills you want for a specific ship.

e.g. Rockets+lm to 5 + destroyer to 4 is less than 1 month

or a drake and heavy missile specialisation is less than a month.

I agree it's difficult to get started, but we have a friend who's been playing 1 month and he's out pvping, missioning, station trading.

Just because you're clueless don't blame everything else.,
Omnathious Deninard
Ministry of Silly Walks.
#651 - 2013-06-10 08:44:30 UTC
Most if not all you should read this thread.
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=3115080#post3115080

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.

Idont Getitatall
Doomheim
#652 - 2013-06-10 12:50:12 UTC
Theres no such thing as SP wall, in other games it takes 4-6 months to level and gear up for DECENT gear playing semi casual, gear that will be obsolete in the next expansion you have to PAY for. My cruiser V from 2010 is still valid, my purple gear from 2010 in other mmorpg`s isnt.

You can of course powerlevel in other mmorpg`s but you can powerlevel in EVE too by grinding ISK and buy a good character if you think SP is everything. Or you can choose to buy 4 plexes (in most games you have to buy the game + expansions, so game + 4 plexes isnt that hard on the wallet considering), thats over 2BIL and gets you a nice 10-15 mil SP character right from the start.

Or you can just stop staring at the SP and start playing, set some skills to go III-IV and blast things to pieces with the friends you made while learning the game.
Garek Zosimo
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#653 - 2013-06-10 20:20:17 UTC
Admiral Adamsgate wrote:
Total Bull, skillpoints mean nothing. Knowledge and the friends you make is how to succeed in EVE.


That in itself is bull, because 95% of all corp that recruit use SP amount as a main requirement for applying to their corp.
Nylith Empyreal
Blood Marauders
#654 - 2013-06-10 21:46:17 UTC
Honestly the only thing SP gain hurts is old players restarting or w/e else, I have restarted many times after having well my way into any t2 hull and capitals. That being said all it is is a tedious wait, and I learn more and more with each reset, honestly people waste so much sp in ships they like but never fly, so much sp they could've spent perfecting the one ship they use the most or the set of ships they use the most, what a waste.

This is the game about research what ccp should is add more information in regards to what ships do what and what follows along a play style you want, as opposed to being led blindly into different ships that are fotm, or look cool but don't do **** for what you want. Now I'm not saying jack of all trades is a bad thing it's nice to have diversity, but in the beginning trying to go for every new ship you find will spread you so thin that after a year you still can't properly fly anything.

I personally, don't like the transition between frigates to battleships, honestly I think it'd be better to start in the middle at cruisers and then let them diverge to the different hulls from there. Strictly imho; going from mid to faster or to more bulkier. But I don't see that happening ever given the current charts and given the price scaling.


Who's the more foolish the fool or the fool who replies to him?

Haulie Berry
#655 - 2013-06-11 01:04:34 UTC
Garek Zosimo wrote:
Admiral Adamsgate wrote:
Total Bull, skillpoints mean nothing. Knowledge and the friends you make is how to succeed in EVE.


That in itself is bull, because 95% of all corp that recruit use SP amount as a main requirement for applying to their corp.


Very few worthwhile corps use that as anything more than a means to filter out the undesirables (e.g., people who whine about not having enough SPs to do anything).
Bruce Kemp
soy bois
No Handlebars.
#656 - 2013-06-11 03:59:40 UTC
Been playing eve 9 years, yeah its tough at the start but that's what made me want to play eve more.

Eve rewards to committed not the people who want a quick fix.

Blink
Ark Katar
Blackland Incorporated
#657 - 2013-06-11 06:37:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Ark Katar
It actually only takes like 2-5 months to become reasonably effective, depending on what you want to do.

Missioning is especially easy to get into.



It's a lot of work to reach a high level of effectiveness with one thing, usually 2-3 more, but no where near 1.5 years.

I have about 1.5 years of training time worth of SP on this character now, and I'm highly effective at:

Running all kinds of missions up to L4 and L5's in groups

Mining, as I can fly Exhumers with T1 gear

Being a mining foremen (I'm like 19 days from perfect orca skills)

Hauling

Trading

Basic ore refining

Social

Leadership (not that I ever really use my high skill investment here heh).

and unfortunately'; planetary management. Ugh

I'm actually just 3 months away from polishing off essentially every skill I ever wanted to max when I started playing the game.

I think I got into a battle cruiser like 3 months in, and a battle ship 4 months in.

Honestly, this game isn't for everyone, it costs a lot of money over a long period of time, and it's pretty brutal, but that's how it is.

Oh, and I have 0 alt accounts.
Sacu Shi
Golden Nyx Corporation
#658 - 2013-06-12 08:20:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Sacu Shi
Hefty TheFirst wrote:
Elena Thiesant wrote:
Hefty TheFirst wrote:
You didn't answer any of the questions but getting core skills to "standard" core skills as in all the skills needed to fly a ship not core on the cert tab takes longer than 2 years.


What ship? All the skills needed and recommended to fly a frigate to V will not take 2 years. All the skills to fly every single ship in the game, yeah that'll take a while. That's a long term goal that you can work on in time, it's not something you need to do to play.

Let's see...
Caldari frigate Merlin, all required skills and recommended certificates total at under 5 days.
Minmatar destroyer Thrasher, all required skills and recommended certificates total at just over 6 days
Gallente cruiser Thorax all required skills and recommended certificates total at a little over 10 days
Amarr battlecruiser Prophecy, all required skills and recommended certificates total at 75 days. Getting large, but haven't hit 6 months yet.
Caldari battleship Raven, all required skills and recommended certificates total at about 80 days, though you probably want more skills than that to fly a battleship

Again, what is your goal that you need to wait 1-2 years to *start*? You're avoiding that question.

Quote:
Yes you can fly all of those and you are approaching the year mark. The worst is behind you.


The worst? Light at the end of the tunnel? What tunnel? I've had fun the whole way through that year.

So I can't fly a battleship perfectly yet, point is, I don't need to, there's nothing that compels me to fly a battleship, nothing where it's 'fly a battleship or log off' (and to be honest I prefer smaller ships at the moment)

What you and probably your friends seem to be missing is that there's no skill requirement for fun. You can play and have fun from the first minute, as long as you don't get stuck in the mentality of 'I have to have 50 million skill points to undock'


Again character assassination and avoiding the actual post discussion.

The pilot I bought is over 2 years old with just missile and projectile skills.
So for 2 years of training I can now fly Min BS and Tengu with less than standard skills.
Now keep in mind this toon was carefully planned for just those 2 roles.
Only 2 roles I can do effectively after 2 years of training.
It would be much better if after 2 years of playing the game I could do better than that.

You need to turn off all your main accounts and see just what I am talking about from a new player perspective.
Not my point of view not your point of view.
Make a trial account. Forget about the contacts you have made over the long periods of time that you have been playing.
With no help from anyone like a normal new player will be exposed too, go see just how useless you truely are in the first few months to a year of eve.
Who would ever want to feel that way...
All I am saying is the SP wall just keeps getting bigger and something needs to be done.
A discussion of some sorts.


New player here. (well, 3 or 4 months) - Currently running lvl 4's solo with a CNR. Making enough ISK to pay for my plex and then some.
Used EVEMoN to see how long it would take me to be able to sit in every subcap ship ingame - 524 days. Not even 2 years! Probably just over 2 years to be able to fly them ALL effectively, but Iv been having fun from day 1, planning, skilling, missioning, getting killed, etc.

Srsly, join a corp, hang out with others, play the game instead of throwing $ at it. Make your goals REALISTIC rather than 'I wanna fly a cap within 2 weeks...waaaaaah I can't do it *tantrum* *ragequit*

Its a game.

P.S. I think you are pissed because you bought a 2 year old toon who has not been trained for a long time. 2 years to fly a Tengu? lol.
Gilhelmi
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#659 - 2013-06-12 09:35:58 UTC
Hefty TheFirst wrote:
Admiral Adamsgate wrote:
Total Bull, skillpoints mean nothing. Knowledge and the friends you make is how to succeed in EVE.


Really?

Lets analyze what you just said.
  • Friends mean everything.
    All of mine quit.

  • Skill points mean nothing.
    The reason why my friends quit.

  • Knowledge means everything.
  • I have knowledge of things I want to do.
    How far away am I to do them? 1-2 years away.
    Wait that long? Never...

    Please this is a "mature" discussion.
    EDIT: No personal attacks, please - ISD Tyrozan


    Admiral Adamsgate is right. A T1 ship with T1 fittings might not be great, but in a group, can still put up a very good fight. Especially, if they are well fit ships.

    I have played this game for 5 years, in that time I have not once gotten a killmail that was not a corp practice session. I have over 72million SP. Fighting is only one aspect of a larger whole.

    Really though, this game does requires you to join a corp with seasoned players to go with you on a combat run. So find a corp that will train you in fighting. SP is not everything, tactics and brains help alot
    Dokten Ral
    Garoun Investment Bank
    Gallente Federation
    #660 - 2013-06-14 19:05:36 UTC
    TLDR

    My 20m SP alt could wreck my 50m SP main in a toe to toe fight, so I disagree with OP. Also, this quote is from someone who really gets the point of having friends in EVE:

    Quote:
    Havin' a crew ain't about fightin' fair! It's about overwhelmin' force!

    -Thugnificent


    Second, EVE is hugely reliant on player skill. You can very often defeat or escape from an opponent simply by being more clever than them despite an arguably worse set of ship, skills, and modules. And having the best **** isn't everything, I've made that mistake. As I started to get into pvp one of the first things was switch back to flying cheap, small T1 ships with T1 modules - because I saw I was not going to be any more effective with T2 than T1 until I learned how to fight.

    And 'Skillbook - How to Fight' is, crazy enough, not on the market or on contracts.

    Remember that time you logged in for the first time in a couple months, hopped into your favoritest most shiniest ratting/missioning/plexing ship and blew it up in the first room cause you forgot how to fly it right? I sure do, Maybe you forgot to orbit your sentries, didn't micromanage your cap usage, or just plain forgot that complex had a smartbomb. It didn't matter that you had all your skills to V and had faction mods equipped - you play wrong, you die. And it's a razor's edge between life and death at every moment my friends.

    If you ask me, being a successful pilot is maybe 10% ships/mods/implants/etc, 15% skillpoints, and 75% player skill. And I love it. While the waits for new ship classes and such have at times been frustrating, I've noticed that the time it takes for skill training complete for the fancy ships with the big pricetags has given me the time as a player to do some research or testing or EFTwarrioring etc. to learn how to fly it. Then it blows up anyway and I learn more.

    So maybe look to your capsuleer, always training, always learning, never ceasing to expand their knowledge of New Eden and how to operate within it. Every day they inexorably becoming a little more adept than they were the previous day. You need your character to be constantly training and learning to be able to keep up in EVE, yes, but just the same your character needs you to train and learn about New Eden just the same. Otherwise they're just so much biomass floating in the vacuum.